Which 5x5 to use?

[Jayhawk21]

Bill Stars Linear Progression 5x5 Intermediate vs. Pendlay 5x5 Periodized Version

I was under the impression that all 5x5 programs involved a deloading period which is where alot of muscle is accumulated but Bill Starrs Linear Progression 5x5 http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm has no deload or intesification stage. Would I be better off doing the Bill Starr - Glenn Pendlay 5x5 Periodized Version for Advanced Lifters http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm. ?

I would say I am an advanced lifter because I've trained hard for five years, but I have never done a full 5x5 routine before. I'm really looking forward to getting the ball rolling, just wondering what the differences, advantages, drawbacks, between the two programs are. I desperately want to gain lean muscle mass and size so I can get from 170 to 190 lbs. Thanks guys

 

[RipStone]

This is basiclly stealing what Macdow always says, but no lifter wants to periodize. Thet do so out of neccisity. That is, if a lifter could go into the gym and add weight to the bar every week(progress in a linear fashion) they would love to do this. Obviously, one can not add weight to the bar every week of their entire lifting career. If they could, you would have guys squatting 10,000lbs!

What I am getting at is that if you can progress with the linear version then that is the routine you want to do because you can be setting PRs every weeks. On the other hand, if you have to use the periodized program in order to progress, then do so. But with a periodized program you set PRs every 4-8 weeks.

As far as which one to pick, have you ever done a higher frequency program before? What are your current rep maxes?

 

[Protobuilder]

Exactly. I've been asking this same question and, after doing some reading, asking questions, etc., I've reached the same conclusion as Ripstone set out above.

Check out the last page of the following thread and see my questions and the responses that followed (scroll up to the top and read down): http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5591654#post5591654

Basically, it's better to shoot for PRs each week if you can (single factor approach). There's no reason to stretch it out and shoot for PRs in 8 week cycles (dual factor version) unless you absolutely need this sort of programming to hit PRs (i.e., you're an advanced lifter).

 

[Jayhawk21]

As far as which one to pick, have you ever done a higher frequency program before? What are your current rep maxes?

My rep maxes are Bench 245, Squat I don't know but 300 x 5. Deadlift is low like 335 because I lose the grip of the barat high weights, which is the only reason it is not higher.

Looks like the intermediate program is the one I should use. I've never done a program with squatting, deads, and benching 3 times a week and I must say it is very intimidating and I'm skeptical but I'll give it a try. I usually do a 3 day or 4 day split. Hopefully my body will learn to react and recoup better after such volume day in and day out. What is the difference in this routine and HST? I read that this is Strength Specific Training (SST)?

 

[Madcow2]

Use mixed grip or straps to hold the dead if you grip is failing (ideally strengthen the grip too). Chaulk can work wonders.

Definitely use the intermediate. Milk linear programs until they are dry.

Your body will absolutely become better accustomed to lifting with higher frequency. This is a big problem with doing a lift 1x per week.

Difference between this and HST? A lot or a little, depends on where you are looking from but certainly not the same.

Be skeptical, everyone else was even though this thing has been used successfully for decades. Why do you think everyone here is so down on BBing programs and splits? Once they saw that the 'work a muscle 1x per week' and 'multiple angles/isolation crap' didn't hold them back, and they got better gains - they felt pretty disillusioned. And they should, that stuff is crap and bodybuilding has been all drugs and no brain for so long people forgot how to train and stopped even thinking it was important (i.e. "BBing is 90% diet").

Remember to eat, no weight gain = no caloric excess. If your program sucks, you'll still gain fat. If you are getting stronger and your weight is steady over a period of weeks, you need more calories - plain and simple.

 

[Jayhawk21]

Thanks madcow, I plan on starting this program this Monday or whenever my elbow joint feels ready to go but I am pumped to get started! Just some questions..

1) What in the sam hell are weighted hypers?
2) How long is the duration of this (the intermediate)? I know the advanced is roughly 9 weeks.
3) Do I start out with my 5th set being my 5RM the first week or should I work up to it? For example, if I benched 215 x 5 for my 5RM, during the first few weeks should I back off and go up until I reach it (Week 1 200x5, Week 2 205x5, Week 3 210x5, then finally hit Week 4 with what was my 5RM at the beginning)

Anyways, here is what I ballparked for the first week, still a little light but definitely not backing off much. Is this ok guys?


Monday
Deep Squats
175 x 5
190 x 5
220 x 5
255 x 5
290 x 5
Bench Press
125 x 5
140 x 5
160 x 5
185 x 5
210 x 5
Barbell Row
95 x 5
110 x 5
125 x 5
145 x 5
165 x 5
Weighted Sit-Ups (Abs)
4 sets
Weighted Hypers or Triceps/Biceps
2-3 sets of one of them
Wednesday
Deep Squats
175 x 5
190 x 5
220 x 5
220 x 5
Military Barbell
65 x 5
75 x 5
90 x 5
105 x 5
Deadlift
190 x 5
220 x 5
250 x 5
285 x 5
Crunches
3 sets
Friday
Squat
175 x 5
190 x 5
220 x 5
255 x 5
297.25 x 3
220 x 5
Bench Press
125 x 5
140 x 5
160 x 5
185 x 5
215 x 3
160 x 9
Barbell Row
95 x 5
110 x 5
125 x 5
145 x 5
148.625 x 5
125 x 10
Weighted Dips
3 sets x (5-8 reps)
Barbell Curls
3 sets x 8 reps
Tricep Extensions
3 sets x 8 reps

In the week following this simulated example, I would use the triple's as my 5RM on the 5th set.

 

[RipStone]

1. weighted hypers can be seen in this link. the dude doesnt have the best form though. to perform this exercises properly, keep the weight in the heels of your feet, keep an arch in your lower back, and add weight if you need to. if you are doing it right you should feel it in your entire lower body posteior chain...

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/ErectorSpinae/WtBackExtension.html

2. as madcow said, milk it for as long as possible. even when you stop progressing in a linear fashion, you can still continue with the program. you will jjst have to reset the weights, etc....dont worry about this until the times comes though.

3. your later is right. ramp the weights up so you are setting PRs in week 4.

The proposed set-up looks good. Few notes; use 8 reps for your back off sets for all 3 core lifts. Also, make sure any of the accessory exercises aren't very fatiguing(ie; dont ligt to failure).

 

[Jayhawk21]

Are barbell bench, military, rows etc, better than the variations used with dumbells? If so why, I'm just curious. In the past I've mixed it up with both. Is it ok if I use dumbells on the Standing Military Press or should I stick to barbells?

I have done barbell military presses but they are very awkward to me and after a few sets my left shoulder starts to hurt. The same thing happens on dumbells but at least my right side doesn't take over.

 

[RipStone]

Are barbell bench, military, rows etc, better than the variations used with dumbells? If so why, I'm just curious. In the past I've mixed it up with both. Is it ok if I use dumbells on the Standing Military Press or should I stick to barbells?

I have done barbell military presses but they are very awkward to me and after a few sets my left shoulder starts to hurt. The same thing happens on dumbells but at least my right side doesn't take over.

BBs are generally superior to DBs simply cus they allow a lifter to move more weight. This is key in a 5x5 program where moving as much weight as possible is the goal.

 

[Guinness5.0]

For the shoulder pain, try warming up more. I like doing 'windmills' with a 5-10 pound plate, frontwards and backwards ~10x each arm. Also, work to your working weight slowly. The awkwardness will go away in time. Do 'em standing w/a barbell for best results.

G/L w/ the program