Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below snagglepuss
New member
I know you need to get whey protein after a workout, but is there a big difference between Whey Isolates, Concentrates and Hydrolysates?
Whey Isolate vs. Whey Concentrate vs. Whey Hydrolysates
- Thread starter snagglepuss
- Start date
S
satchboogie
Guest
absolutely!
whey isolate will kick in much faster.. some'n like 20 minutes if i'm not mistake.
its also much easier absorbed.
let the wizards shed more light..
whey isolate will kick in much faster.. some'n like 20 minutes if i'm not mistake.
its also much easier absorbed.
let the wizards shed more light..
Silent Method
New member
Hydroslates are virtually instantly absorbed - you can digest much more at a time than other forms. Isolates are better, concentrates lesser.
Actually, the descriptions on proteinfactory.com (at least the last time I was there quite a while ago) are pretty acurate (which is unusual for a dealer!)
Actually, the descriptions on proteinfactory.com (at least the last time I was there quite a while ago) are pretty acurate (which is unusual for a dealer!)
D
Deleted member 33117
Guest
Where is the steak option on this vote?????
SlavikHavik
New member
concetrate vs isolate... not much of a difference imo.
especially if your buying it from the big names, i really wonder how legit their claims are.
However... concetrate vs hydrolized. Really i think you should down 50g's hydroisolate postworkout, 10g's gluatmine, 10g's BCAA's and some dextrose.
That is a mean postworkout shake, and you will see some serious results
Also if you can afford it the same thing in the morning.
Preworkout 10-15 g's hydrolized 10g's glutamine 10g's BCAA's
but yes there is a differnce between hydrolized and the others, and it is signifigant.
especially if your buying it from the big names, i really wonder how legit their claims are.
However... concetrate vs hydrolized. Really i think you should down 50g's hydroisolate postworkout, 10g's gluatmine, 10g's BCAA's and some dextrose.
That is a mean postworkout shake, and you will see some serious results
Also if you can afford it the same thing in the morning.
Preworkout 10-15 g's hydrolized 10g's glutamine 10g's BCAA's
but yes there is a differnce between hydrolized and the others, and it is signifigant.
snagglepuss
New member
thanks. I just bought Optimum Nutrition's 100% Whey Protein. The label says it contains all three, but it doesn't specify how much of each.
In general, what protein do you use/recommend?
In general, what protein do you use/recommend?
D
Deleted member 33117
Guest
dim said:
Uhhhhh... someone realizes that bcaa's are all that really matter? That is not fucking possible on the net. Who are you really?
snagglepuss said:
Read my posts on the thread http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=344187 . I posted basically everything you need to know about whey protein.
Concentrate vs Isolate :
A true whey protein isolate (WPI) will have very little fat and lactose and will be about 90% protein (the protein fractions are "isolated" from the rest of the material). Whey protein concentrate (WPC) contains about 7% fat and lactose and only 75% protein, BUT it costs less than half of what an isolate costs. The actual protein in WPC (that 75%) is usually pretty good, actually as good as the protein in WPI.
Bottom line : As long as you're not too sensitive to lactose, use WPC. You get a better value for money.
Keep in mind that contrary to what supplement companies want you to believe, QUANTITY of protein is more important than QUALITY, especially if you're juicing and trying to bulk up. Also keep in mind that some manufacturers (most of them actually) will put 98% WPC in their product and then put in 1% of a hydrolyzed product (remember this tastes horrible!) and 1% of an isolate. Then, they can legally claim all types of stuff on their label-- di and tri peptides, ion-exchange, blah, blah, blah!
Some karma would be appreciated.
Hydrolyzed whey - let's break some myths :
"But what about hydrolization (breaking the proteins into smaller fractions like "di and tri peptides") couldn't this make whey into the superior product that it is supposed to be? What we found was that the hydrolyzed whey promotes less nitrogen retention than a similar non-hydrolyzed whey (a bad thing for a bodybuilder because a positive nitrogen balance is a must for anabolic muscle gain.) As a note: the hydrolyzed product that we studied was the BEST in the industry with a 27% hydrolization, no bitter taste, and at a cost from the manufacturer of greater than $8.00 per pound! Rest assured, NO manufacturer is selling a whey product where the raw materials for the protein cost anywhere close to $8 per pound.
Consider the above and you will quickly realize that supplement companies (who don't actually manufacture the whey but buy the raw product from an actual manufacturer) are telling "some fibs" about whey protein. BV of 168--ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS! Real whey manufacturers sometimes still use BV to grade protein, and they always rate whey protein as a 94 BV! When you see a 168 BV claim listed on the label of several manufacturers' whey protein, just turn your head, know you're being scammed, and absolutely don't buy!
Now let's consider the other claims and statements about the di-and tri- peptides, about glutamine, and about the BCAAs (Branch Chain Amino Acids).
If hydrolization doesn't further increase nitrogen retention, then what is the point of breaking protein into its smaller fractions like di- and tri- peptides? There IS a good reason for hydrolyzing a protein and having short peptides but it has nothing to do with BV/nitrogen retention. Instead, it has everything to do with how FAST and EASY the product is absorbed in the gut. Regular, undigested whey will be broken down into di- and tri-peptides via enzymes in a person's gut and will be absorbed as such. The caveat is that the whole process just takes a little longer. Hydrolyzed products are basically only useful in baby food or hospital situations where a person's digestive system is not functioning optimally or when protein delivery is needed very quickly.
Is there any benefit of a hydrolyzed product for the bodybuilder? To tell you the truth, I would have to say NO -- except possibly for the benefit of having a quickly absorbed protein immediately after a workout to ensure the muscle tissue is flooded with nutrients in a timely manner albeit with a nitrogen penalty. Interestingly, this entire argument about hydrolized protein is academic as it is not currently sold on the market. Here's why. One, the cost of hydrolyzed whey is outrageous and two, its taste is ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE. Trust me, if you're want to induce vomiting, just take a little hydrolyzed whey protein!"
"But what about hydrolization (breaking the proteins into smaller fractions like "di and tri peptides") couldn't this make whey into the superior product that it is supposed to be? What we found was that the hydrolyzed whey promotes less nitrogen retention than a similar non-hydrolyzed whey (a bad thing for a bodybuilder because a positive nitrogen balance is a must for anabolic muscle gain.) As a note: the hydrolyzed product that we studied was the BEST in the industry with a 27% hydrolization, no bitter taste, and at a cost from the manufacturer of greater than $8.00 per pound! Rest assured, NO manufacturer is selling a whey product where the raw materials for the protein cost anywhere close to $8 per pound.
Consider the above and you will quickly realize that supplement companies (who don't actually manufacture the whey but buy the raw product from an actual manufacturer) are telling "some fibs" about whey protein. BV of 168--ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS! Real whey manufacturers sometimes still use BV to grade protein, and they always rate whey protein as a 94 BV! When you see a 168 BV claim listed on the label of several manufacturers' whey protein, just turn your head, know you're being scammed, and absolutely don't buy!
Now let's consider the other claims and statements about the di-and tri- peptides, about glutamine, and about the BCAAs (Branch Chain Amino Acids).
If hydrolization doesn't further increase nitrogen retention, then what is the point of breaking protein into its smaller fractions like di- and tri- peptides? There IS a good reason for hydrolyzing a protein and having short peptides but it has nothing to do with BV/nitrogen retention. Instead, it has everything to do with how FAST and EASY the product is absorbed in the gut. Regular, undigested whey will be broken down into di- and tri-peptides via enzymes in a person's gut and will be absorbed as such. The caveat is that the whole process just takes a little longer. Hydrolyzed products are basically only useful in baby food or hospital situations where a person's digestive system is not functioning optimally or when protein delivery is needed very quickly.
Is there any benefit of a hydrolyzed product for the bodybuilder? To tell you the truth, I would have to say NO -- except possibly for the benefit of having a quickly absorbed protein immediately after a workout to ensure the muscle tissue is flooded with nutrients in a timely manner albeit with a nitrogen penalty. Interestingly, this entire argument about hydrolized protein is academic as it is not currently sold on the market. Here's why. One, the cost of hydrolyzed whey is outrageous and two, its taste is ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE. Trust me, if you're want to induce vomiting, just take a little hydrolyzed whey protein!"
snagglepuss said:
It is the BV of protien that makes Isolate superior. Its how much of your protien you are actually ustilizing. Once you understand the BV of protien you will see why Whey Isolate kicks some serious ass.
Here is an old post of mine.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273174&highlight=Rocks
Although one gram of protein will contain four calories in all cases, the amount of protein which our body can digest and use for muscel building purposes is not always 100%. In fact, the most easily digestible natural protein source are whole eggs, where the percentag net utilization by our bodies is 94%. Because eggs contain the best protein digestion rate of any natural source, eggs are given a protein rating of '100' and all other protein containing food sources are rated according to how digestible they are compared to egg protein.
AS we all know (and SHOULD be using), there are protein powders which digest even easier than egg protein and can be utilized by our bodies even more than the 94% that natural egg protein can be. These protein powders would have a protein rating higher than 100 on the scale below.
So here it is... Biological Value
The BIological Value (BV) is a scale of measurement used to determine what percentage of a given nutrient source is utilized by the body. The scale is most frequently applied to protein sources, particularly whey protein. Biological Value is derived from providing a measure intake of protein, then determining the nitrogen uptake versus nitrogen excretion. THe theoretical highest BV of any food source is 100%. To break it down .... - BV refers to how well and howe quickly your body can actually use the protein you consume.
Here is a list of various sources of protein and their respective ratings.
Protein Ratings
FOOD PROTEIN - RATING
Eggs (whole) - 100
Eggs (whites) - 88
Chicken / Turkey - 79
Fish - 70
Lean Beef - 69
Cow's Milk - 60
Brown Rice - 57
White Rice - 56
Soybeans - 47
Whole-grain Wheat - 44
Peanuts - 43
Dry Beans - 34
White Potato - 34
As far as sources of protein created in the lab are concerned, here is a short list of some protein sources you can find in most supplements common today. YOu cann see how they compare to the natural sources listed above:
Protein Ratings
PROTEIN SUPPLEMENT - PROTEIN RATING
Whey Protein Isolate - 159
Whey Protein Concentrate - 104
Casein - 77
Soy - 74
You can see that whey isolate has the highest BV of any protein source. You get the most bang for the bucl. This is usually why it is so damn expensive. I recommend to buy flavourless whey isolate. That way you are not paying for any sugar weight, just pure high grade protein. I also would recommend taking it with water.
So are all protiens created equal? NO. Whey Isolate rules, it has superior AA profile,and doesn't cause all the stomach discomfort of the concentrates. Micellar Casein is an excellent choice as well,has the same benefits as WPI,with the added bonus of being absorbed much slower,thus giving a timed release and less potential of oxidation. I started buying my Isolates by the 20kg bag from Vitalus, so i dont have to be as sparing with it anymore. I love the stuff, and will not use anything else PW. I admitt the afstore IsoAGB sounds like an amazing formula, just a little pricy for me personally right now.
Cheers,
Mavy
RussianRocket
Banned
Mavy, I use Vitalus now too! (Thanks to you!!!) I wanted to know if it was OK to throw in a scoop of it with my ultra fuel immediatly P.O.? I use it for everything else too but I wanted to know if it digested fast enough to take immediatly after my workout with my high G.I. carb drink to spike insulin.
I usually just took an Ultra Fuel right after my workout and ate a huge liquid meal about an hour later, but I've been hearing recently that adding protein to your P.W. drink gave better results, so yeah, will vitalus do the job? Or should I hunt for a hydrosylate?
I usually just took an Ultra Fuel right after my workout and ate a huge liquid meal about an hour later, but I've been hearing recently that adding protein to your P.W. drink gave better results, so yeah, will vitalus do the job? Or should I hunt for a hydrosylate?
juve
New member
Vitalus again I hear - how do you order from them? Do I have to contact them directly via phone/fax? Could anyone please PM me the details - I suppose there shouldn't be any problems with violating TOS.
And just on the general note: BV of protein is just a quirk, a marketing ploy. In other words: are you telling me that for 1g of Isolate I produce and/or retain 1.59g of NO?! Just a little bit far fetched wouldn't you think?
Good thing about Isolate: it's the Beta-lactoglobulin, Alpha-lactalbumin, Immunoglobulin, Bovine Serum Albumin, Lactoferrin content and the respective ratios. Isolate is mainly comprised of the components mentioned above, while other proteins are 'adulterated' by their own filtration (or rather inefficient filtration) byproducts.
And just on the general note: BV of protein is just a quirk, a marketing ploy. In other words: are you telling me that for 1g of Isolate I produce and/or retain 1.59g of NO?! Just a little bit far fetched wouldn't you think?
Good thing about Isolate: it's the Beta-lactoglobulin, Alpha-lactalbumin, Immunoglobulin, Bovine Serum Albumin, Lactoferrin content and the respective ratios. Isolate is mainly comprised of the components mentioned above, while other proteins are 'adulterated' by their own filtration (or rather inefficient filtration) byproducts.
RussianRocket
Banned
Go to Vitalus's website and e-mail them. I don't know if they ship outside of Canada though, if they do, I supose they'd take a M.O.
I add the isolate to something else though, it tastes like complete ass on its own. Kinda like watered down rancid milk.
I add the isolate to something else though, it tastes like complete ass on its own. Kinda like watered down rancid milk.
Mavy said:
Scoring Protein by BV is one of the many areas where the bodybuilding public is being deceived and manipulated. BV and PER (protein efficiency ratio) are OUTDATED. The newest and most accurate measurement of a protein's quality for a HUMAN is the PDCAAS--Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score.
The highest PDCAAS score possible is 1.0. Any protein with a score of 1.0 is considered complete for use by the human body. Soy-protein isolate, egg white, whey, and casein proteins all have a perfect 1.0 score.
Mavy said:
To be honest, I don't know. I'm not a scientist, I just read tons of text on the web every day, and try to find out what the truth could be. However when it comes to protein, and supplements in general, the hype is MUCH more than the right information. We can thank the damn supplement companies for that. I personally combine whey, casein and egg proteins just to have every aspect covered. Of course my primary source of protein is food : eggs, chicken/turkey, fish, red meat, dairy products.
