"Where are you getting your carbs from!?!?!"

[Mr.X]

Ok, I need to correct myself, I was very "hot" when I wrote the reply.

Virtually, no women can get down below 12%bf without steroids. But, there are ALWAYS exception, I can't argue with genetics. Now, to prove my theory of 12%bf limit: I will tell everyone, basically, that every woman I have worked with had the problem of getting down below 12%bf (naturally, because I do not believe in steroid use by women). It was just impossible, no matter what we tried, it is a fact, in my view, that estrogen and progesterone is a part of this problem. However, when I did my study, I concluded that 70% of women over 30 had a problem getting under 15%bf. (only 500 women studied) I have yet to publish the results.

P.S. there is always that 30% of women that can achieve that goal

Mr.X

 

[natglutes]

I concluded that 70% of women over 30 had a problem getting under 15%bf. (only 500 women studied) I have yet to publish the results.

What, Im over 30 and my BF is 12%............

 

[DIESEL_5]

women can DEFINITELY get below 12% BF without steroids. it's all genetics. my ex-gf used to eat sugary things quite often and could basically eat whatever she wanted and was 10% bf. you could see every detail of every muscle in her body. it was all genetics for her.

 

[MS]

I will agree estrogen/progesterone is the biggest prob women face when dieting. In my experience (far less than 500 women though) it is much easier for older women to achieve this goal BECAUSE their estrogen levels are lower. I will also admit to using Nolvadex for the last 6 weeks of my precomp diets. But in my honest experience the majority of women that attempt dieting to very low %bf purely do not have the discipline or knowledge to stick it out sensibly and rationally. It's not just about physiology or genetics. It is a HUGE psychological battle as well. I find it hard to get even very motivated women to eat enough calories for effective long term weight loss. Many women also do not go all out with the heavy weights even when they think they are. How often do you see a woman go to absolute positive failure on squats??? Instead they keep hopping on those stupid cardio machines and grind away some more muscle instead of building it. Well I know that's a gross generalization, but you gotta admit that women and men do not approach dieting with the same mindset.

 

[Mr.X]

Remember that the older a woman gets the "lower" the estrogen, but metabolic rate is slowed down significantly too. So it's a stick with two ends. You see, I personally consider nolvadex a drug (although it is an anit-estrogen).

Well, I don't think this thread is going anywhere. We are not helping anyone here.

As for natglutes, yes you are a woman in her 30's and yes you are 12%bf. Can you get below that?

Mr.X

 

[MS]

Yes we're certainly off topic. Of course Nolvadex is a drug, so is ephedrine. In neither case are they the same as steroids, but both can aid women in fatloss. As a side note there is not a lot of evidence that nolvadex assists in losing stubborn lower body fat. As another genetically gifted freak you have my training partner, female, 45 years old. The only 'drug' she took was ephedrine. She was totally ripped (WELL below 10%bf) at her first ever competition and took first place (in the over 35's) at regionals, and third place at nationals. And I'm joking about her being genetically gifted. She is normally a little on the rounded side. She got lean and mean by eating, training and totally focusing just like I did. Lower meatbolism is a relative thing. My training partner didn't start weight training until her late 30's, so for her adding LBM has increased her metabolism miles above what it was when she was a younger couch potato. I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but I get really really tired of people taking it as a "fact" that a women must be using steroids because she can get lean and retain muscle by following a strict well thought out diet and training plan. I agree with MR X on many things, and I realize you have a very strong background in this field, but I would love to see this study of yours published, or at least find out more details about how these 500 women attempted to lower their bodyfat below 15%.

Natglutes, do you WANT to get below 12%??

 

[Mr.X]

I'll keep this short.... Yes, Nolvadex has the "properties" of helping "stubborn" bodyfat areas. I have actually, tried it myself (male) in order to see the big picture. The only thing, is that it is a prescription drug and is prescribed after used of steroids in order to keep estrogen levels down, in post cycles. There is virtually no possibility of getting Nolvadex in the same way you can get ephedrine in HCL form (norephedrine). (HCL=pharmasutical grade).

As far as the study goes, it's simple, and I do not like having any arguments about it, it is basically from facts. I cannot publish it because I did not fund it, so it is not my decision, but I will promote my own study on the west-coast and then and only then we can truly grasp the concept of women and weight-loss.
Mr.X

 

[MS]

I don't mind if you haven't published your results, I merely am interested to know how these hundreds of women attempted to lose fat. In my personal research I have found that almost ANY normal weight woman can get very lean without steroids. She just needs the right advice and close monitoring/whip cracking to get there. Put another way, it is bloody hard and she needs to be extremely motivated and constantly kept on track. She has to have full support of her family and friends, and has to be willing to give up her social life and many other things that most women are not willing to give up for 12-16 weeks. Meeting these criteria have nothing to do with being a female, in other words it is not a physiological problem innate to women. It is more of a social/psychological hurdle IMHO.

As for the nolvadex, it's interesting how different countries treat different drugs. Where I live nolvadex and steroids are not illegal (mainly because they are not considered overly dangerous) but ephedrine IS illegal. As far as the IOC is concerned, steroids and ephedrine are illegal, but nolvadex isn't. So I don't put any stock in what's available to people in specific locations. BTW if you're a female living in America and want to try Nolvadex you can spin a story to your doctor about how breast cancer runs strongly in your family and how both your sisters are already on preventative Nolvadex maintenance. Barring this it is not illegal to import Nolvadex in the sense that you will not go to prison if you get caught bringing it into the country. In no way is it in the same class as steroids.

And I really would like to hear more about your research MrX. Maybe via email if you don't want to broadcast it all over the net? I promise I won't tell anyone