when is it ok to eat carbs again??

[Yarg!]

question: ive never been big on dieting, but recently ive gotten health crazy. in the mornings ive been running alot and eating well. however, i heard that carbs after 5pm is a big no no, and that carbs at dinner should be very limited if any at all.. is this true? i am going for a fairly high protein , but low carb, calorie diet. this is what i did today, as an example:

morning:

8am morning run:
5mins fast run, 5 mins slow pace, 1 min sprint, 2 min slow 1 min sprint, 25 min walk back (basically HIIT). abs stuff, pushups, pullups (cant do weights for awhile due to a shoulder injury).

9am breakfast

cereal
grill cheese sandwich
banana
cup of OJ

12pm lunch
chicken, pasta, salad, milk

3pm pb&j sandwich

6pm dinner

chicken salad, protein shake

am i doing something wrong? or am i on the right track? this low carb thing really sucks though cuz im craving a grilled cheese sandwich, but i dont know whether or not i should have one. should i hold off on carbs till tmr for breakfast? or is it ok to get some carbs for dinner? thanks.

 

[Sub-Zero]

i just eat everything (provided its healthy) all the time

im planning to cut in two weeks, and i have no idea how im gunna keep anything since im way too lazy to actually count shit...

i figure ill keep my food exactly the same and add in 3 days of cardio, lets say 15-20 minutes each day

then in week 2, ill get rid of a small meal and space my meals out further

then in week 3, ill up the cardio to maybe 30 minutes a day,

then in week 4, ill keep it the same,

then in week 5, ill get rid of a part of one of my meals,

then ill see where im at and keep for a while. sounds good eh?

oh god im gunna lose everything

 

[NJjuice22]

i have noticed that cutting carbs in the afternoon /nighttime makes a huge difference...i;ll have my oatmeal, eat some carbs pre-workout, but after that...thats it.

 

[KillahBee]

certain people will say that you should never eat carbs after 5,6, maybe 7:18pm. If you are not training at night, then I would try to cut back on the carbs at night as it will no doubt have a good effect on your diet.

sidenote: cereal, grilled cheese, pasta? these are not exactly a staple of most low-carb diets. what kind of pasta, bread and cereal? also, where are your EFA's coming from?

 

[pintoca]

mmmm, this belong here not...

Yarg, shame on you bro. Low carb is low carb, normally 60-80grs for guys. Stick to morning carbs (OATS, not bread) and a couple of green leafy things during the days to keep you full (weed does not count).

Afternoon carbs? I used to stop at 1pm, now I stop at 7:00 am (except for my PWO shake). Yep, I spend the whole day carbless nowadays till 10pm when I hit that shake after lifting.

as for your foor sources, they could be cleaner, you need to suffer a bit then you know you are doing it right

 

[Santa_Claus]

I eat carbs and I eat them throughout the day, even before going to bed. I always make sure to eat low-gi carbs. When I eat out, I always eat salad or meat because I know all the breads and carbs they use are high-GI.

I eat rye bread, 3-5 minute oatmeal, basmati rice, whole wheat pastas. Those are the only carbs that im willing to touch.

 

[Burning_Inside]

Go keto and you don't have to worry about carbs lol.

Anyways, carb timing... If you're tying to lose weight, then it's kind of impossible to add or retain all of your muscle mass anyway, so just take carbs in the morning and post workout. Actual time of day means jack, it's based on your personal sleep/wake pattern.

 

[Sub-Zero]

diet in general is the biggest amount of bs ever,

i hate how diet has to be such a science

 

[Burning_Inside]

diet in general is the biggest amount of bs ever,

i hate how diet has to be such a science

yeah dont we all wish we can get lean on krispy kremes.

 

[pintoca]

diet in general is the biggest amount of bs ever,

i hate how diet has to be such a science

LOL

 

[Joe Stenson]

i have noticed that cutting carbs in the afternoon /nighttime makes a huge difference

It's probably more that this is making you eat less total calories than you were before than the fact that you're not eating carbs. Not having carbs after a certain time of day is a myth. But when you're not replacing the calories with an equivalent amount in protein or fat, it's going to work anyway...just not for the reason people believe.

 

[Joe Stenson]

im planning to cut in two weeks, and i have no idea how im gunna keep anything since im way too lazy to actually count shit...

Can't say I have much sympathy for you.

If you're too lazy to count calories on a cut OR a bulk, expect less than optimal results. That's fine for some people, not for others. To each their own.

 

[Yarg!]

can i say fuck it to carb timing, but just cut down on calories? i mean, can i will not like gorge a loaf of bread and bucket of pasta or anything, ill still watch my carbs ofcourse, but can i sitll eat carbs after like 6,7, 8pm , but at the same time tone down on calories and do exercises to balance it all out?

 

[Burning_Inside]

can i say fuck it to carb timing, but just cut down on calories? i mean, can i will not like gorge a loaf of bread and bucket of pasta or anything, ill still watch my carbs ofcourse, but can i sitll eat carbs after like 6,7, 8pm , but at the same time tone down on calories and do exercises to balance it all out?

with a slowed nighttime metabolism, carbs could end up not getting completely digested and end up stored as extra fat.

 

[Sub-Zero]

with a slowed nighttime metabolism, carbs could end up not getting completely digested and end up stored as extra fat.

you said its all about time of day, according to sleep wake, not actual TIME per se

how many hours before sleep time would u suggest not eatin carbs

 

[Joe Stenson]

can i say fuck it to carb timing, but just cut down on calories? i mean, can i will not like gorge a loaf of bread and bucket of pasta or anything, ill still watch my carbs ofcourse, but can i sitll eat carbs after like 6,7, 8pm , but at the same time tone down on calories and do exercises to balance it all out?

Cutting down on calories is BETTER than watching carb intake. Just make sure you're getting adequate protein and EFAs first and foremost.

 

[Joe Stenson]

with a slowed nighttime metabolism, carbs could end up not getting completely digested and end up stored as extra fat.

And how is that going to happen if he's in a caloric deficit for the day? Or even at maintenance for that matter?

 

[Burning_Inside]

And how is that going to happen if he's in a caloric deficit for the day? Or even at maintenance for that matter?

Well let's hear your explanation on how it won't happen.

See that's why I stopped posting on these forums for so long, people seem more like they are looking to one up the previous poster and look smarter by calling them out rather than just posting facts to the contrary and not try and spark an arguement.

if you have info on hand that you feel supercedes my own, then post it.

 

[Burning_Inside]

you said its all about time of day, according to sleep wake, not actual TIME per se

how many hours before sleep time would u suggest not eatin carbs

I really don't know it's all different per person. general guideline I guess is about say 2 hours? Depends how long insulin lingers around. Use a glucometer to be certain is really all I can tell ya.

Your metabolism slows at night, and you can't burn fat with insulin present in your system, so...Why hinder fat store burning at night by eating anything warranting an insulin response? That could include diet drinks too. Artificial sweeteners CAN cause insulin spikes in some people.

 

[Joe Stenson]

Well let's hear your explanation on how it won't happen.

See that's why I stopped posting on these forums for so long, people seem more like they are looking to one up the previous poster and look smarter by calling them out rather than just posting facts to the contrary and not try and spark an arguement.

if you have info on hand that you feel supercedes my own, then post it.

I'm not trying to "one-up" you. If someone posts something that is flawed, it's likely someone else will point it out.

Dieting is basically all about calories in vs. calories out. There are other factors to consider, but nothing matters nearly as much as the almighty calorie.

If someone's maintenance calorie level is 3000 calories, and this person consumes 2500 calories each day, he/she is going to lose weight, period. And given an adequate protein intake, a large portion of that weight loss will come from fat. Whether this person ingested 0g carbs, 100g carbs, or 200g carbs is irrelevant as long as total calories are the same. And whether these carbs come in the morning or at night is equally as irrelevant. (Granted, you may have slightly better insulin sensitivity at certain points in the day, but the differences will not be overly drastic. Partitioning effects will be greatest after training so centering carb intake around workouts is a good approach...however, again this is not nearly as important as total calories consumed.)

I think your biggest problem is that you seem to be under the impression that your metabolism slows down greatly at night. It slows for sure, but by a negligible amount.

 

[Burning_Inside]

I'm not trying to "one-up" you. If someone posts something that is flawed, it's likely someone else will point it out.

Dieting is basically all about calories in vs. calories out. There are other factors to consider, but nothing matters nearly as much as the almighty calorie.

If someone's maintenance calorie level is 3000 calories, and this person consumes 2500 calories each day, he/she is going to lose weight, period. And given an adequate protein intake, a large portion of that weight loss will come from fat. Whether this person ingested 0g carbs, 100g carbs, or 200g carbs is irrelevant as long as total calories are the same. And whether these carbs come in the morning or at night is equally as irrelevant. (Granted, you may have slightly better insulin sensitivity at certain points in the day, but the differences will not be overly drastic. Partitioning effects will be greatest after training so centering carb intake around workouts is a good approach...however, again this is not nearly as important as total calories consumed.)

I think your biggest problem is that you seem to be under the impression that your metabolism slows down greatly at night. It slows for sure, but by a negligible amount.

I think something you cant seem to overlook is the all around calorie per day thing. A calorie is not a calorie and as you say yourself timing of nutrients is important to goals one way or another. Going by what you say, you're saying I could eat 2500 cals a day in nothing but table sugar but I will lose weight, simply because I'm eating under my BMR in cals? Am I putting words in your mouth?

Hypothetical situation, let's say for one full day, you ate nothing but just one scoop of whey and did cardio for 45 mins. You only took in say 80 calories. That night, I'm sure if you went to bed, and at carbs beforehand, it wouldn't matter.

Let's say the next say you had 2000 calories up into bedtime, but did less work than yesterday. Do you think you could get away with eating carbs before bed this night and having them burned up while you sleep?

You mention a lot about cals in vs cals out but you have to realize there's also the othe rfactor of how much work you're doing in a day also and how much energy your body needs on a daily basis.

if I sat around all day in bed and did nothing, there's no way my body would need the same amount of cals to function that day as it did the day before, your "maintenance" level changes on a daily basis, so in this case taking carbs pre bedtime would be a short term mistake.

i just don't understand why you'd ever risk it anyway, it's not hard to instead take a scoop of casein in water and maybe a bit of flax.

my opinion.

 

[Joe Stenson]

Going by what you say, you're saying I could eat 2500 cals a day in nothing but table sugar but I will lose weight, simply because I'm eating under my BMR in cals?

That is correct. However, because you don't have an adequate protein intake most (if not all) of that weight loss will be muscle.

The funny thing is people like to complicate things, but really a calorie IS a calorie...especially when you take adequate protein and EFAs as a given.

Hypothetical situation, let's say for one full day, you ate nothing but just one scoop of whey and did cardio for 45 mins. You only took in say 80 calories. That night, I'm sure if you went to bed, and at carbs beforehand, it wouldn't matter.

Let's say the next say you had 2000 calories up into bedtime, but did less work than yesterday. Do you think you could get away with eating carbs before bed this night and having them burned up while you sleep?

Depends. Are those calories going to put you at or over your limit? If not, then sure you can get away with it.

You mention a lot about cals in vs cals out but you have to realize there's also the othe rfactor of how much work you're doing in a day also and how much energy your body needs on a daily basis.

LOL. What do you think the cals OUT part of the equation is referring to???

if I sat around all day in bed and did nothing, there's no way my body would need the same amount of cals to function that day as it did the day before, your "maintenance" level changes on a daily basis, so in this case taking carbs pre bedtime would be a short term mistake.

If you were completely sedentary the cals out side of the equation decreases. To compensate for this you have to consume less calories that day, ie. your "maintenance" level does indeed change. Taking in carbs before bed might put you over the limit...or it might not.

 

[Yarg!]

so joe, what youre saying is carb timing can be neglectd to an EXTENT, but ultimately its up to the old calorie in vs calorie out, granted the person on the diet is not sedentary, but is mobile during the day (ie. cardio and weights)?

 

[Joe Stenson]

so joe, what youre saying is carb timing can be neglectd to an EXTENT, but ultimately its up to the old calorie in vs calorie out, granted the person on the diet is not sedentary, but is mobile during the day (ie. cardio and weights)?

Carb-timing can really be neglected altogether if you don't want to stress about things. If you want optimal results, then maybe it's something to consider. (Note, I'm not changing my stance on carbs before bed. That last statement was referring more to centering carbs around workouts.)

And it's ALWAYS up to the old calorie in vs. calorie out, regardless of activity levels. Activity levels merely impact one side of the equation (calories out).

 

[thelion2005]

question: ive never been big on dieting, but recently ive gotten health crazy. in the mornings ive been running alot and eating well. however, i heard that carbs after 5pm is a big no no, and that carbs at dinner should be very limited if any at all.. is this true? i am going for a fairly high protein , but low carb, calorie diet. this is what i did today, as an example:

morning:

8am morning run:
5mins fast run, 5 mins slow pace, 1 min sprint, 2 min slow 1 min sprint, 25 min walk back (basically HIIT). abs stuff, pushups, pullups (cant do weights for awhile due to a shoulder injury).

9am breakfast

cereal
grill cheese sandwich
banana
cup of OJ

12pm lunch
chicken, pasta, salad, milk

3pm pb&j sandwich

6pm dinner

chicken salad, protein shake

am i doing something wrong? or am i on the right track? this low carb thing really sucks though cuz im craving a grilled cheese sandwich, but i dont know whether or not i should have one. should i hold off on carbs till tmr for breakfast? or is it ok to get some carbs for dinner? thanks.

Think No Simple Carbs.
Eat mucho complex carbs with each meal and all those cravings will go away.
Flesh, eggs, veggies, cheese and water.
Look for hidden sugar - OJ? Pasta?

 

[JonPee]

joe lost all credibility with the a calorie is a calorie statement.

 

[Joe Stenson]

joe lost all credibility with the a calorie is a calorie statement.

Enlighten the rest of us.

And remember, I said a calorie is a calorie "providing you already have adequate protein and EFAs". Here's a hypothetical example: A guy takes in 1.5g protein/lb bodyweight, 10g fish oil, and a tbsp flax oil, while staying in a weekly caloric deficit of 3500 calories (enough to lose 1 lb of fat). Please explain to me, and the rest of us, what the difference is going to be whether the remaining calories come from oats, donuts, or plain table sugar. Make sure that your answer emphasizes exactly why this guy is not going to lose 1lb of fat eating the donuts (a fat and high GI carb mix) or table sugar (high GI carb), yet could if he ate the oats (a low GI carb).

 

[Sub-Zero]

I really don't know it's all different per person. general guideline I guess is about say 2 hours? Depends how long insulin lingers around. Use a glucometer to be certain is really all I can tell ya.

Your metabolism slows at night, and you can't burn fat with insulin present in your system, so...Why hinder fat store burning at night by eating anything warranting an insulin response? That could include diet drinks too. Artificial sweeteners CAN cause insulin spikes in some people.

is alchohol sugars in sugarless gums cause insulin spikes too (no im not joking i honestly dont know)

and also, 2 hours aint bad, i stop about 4 hours or more before bed.

thanks

 

[sublime35]

sugar alcohols do not cause a blood sugar spike that's why so many diabetic foods are made with them. they do have have calories though so just watch out for that.

 

[pintoca]

The funny thing is people like to complicate things, but really a calorie IS a calorie...especially when you take adequate protein and EFAs as a given.

.

Just to clear this, and as this is a common cause of confusion, a calorie (or correctly said, a Kcal, since we are talking about food) is only a calorie when we are looking at it from the Thermodynamics point of view (simply as an energy measure).

However, when we see it from the cutting perspective (and defining cutting as the science/art of MAXIMIZING fat loss while MINIMIZING LBM loss) and not simply as losing weight, then if I were to accept that a "calorie is a calorie" then I would have to disregard/place as incorrect, the following premises:

1. Macronutrients Ratios modification: A well known fact is that a variation as small as 10% in your ratios can make the difference between a diet that works and one that will not, or between a diet that will make you feel miserable and weak (0 carbs) against one that will make you feel strong (50+% carbs)

2. Thermic Effect of Food: Lean protein has a TE of up to 30%, whereas fat and refined carbs can be as low as only 3% TE. Natural starchy and fibrous carbs are a close second at 20%. This alone would have a significant impact in terms of nett caloric availability. If you eat 100 cals of fat, about 97 of them will be available to your body after digestion, whereas with cals of oats, about 80 will be available. Your statement above, when read in light of your disclaimer, should read then: "A carb calorie is a carb calorie," is still wrong by the difference in Thermic Effect of both simple/refined carbs and low GI carbs.

3. Meal timing according to Metabolic process: Case in point, PWO nutrition. If a cal is a cal, regardless I have my protein intake covered, I could get away with pure carbs (of any type) or pure fat (EFAs or not) post work out and forget completely about insuline spikes and glycogen replenishment.

there are other subtle factors though, like insuline resistance and "empty cals" (sugar table is 99% pure calories, no vitamins, no minerals, no proteins, it actually depletes minerals from your body. As a general rule, one should not be concerned only with the number of calories per day, but with the nutritient density of those cals (especially important if we are to compare sugar table with oats, for example)

As a final point, a deficit of 3500 cals/week will not automatically result in 1 lb of fat lost,
in most cases it might not even result in 1 lb of weight lost at all, it all depends on how efficient your body is at running your current diet.

As for your example: "Make sure that your answer emphasizes exactly why this guy is not going to lose 1lb of fat eating the donuts (a fat and high GI carb mix) or table sugar (high GI carb), yet could if he ate the oats (a low GI carb)."

It is indeed quite simple: If you eat your protein and your EFAs and you fill the gap with donuts, there is a VERY high chance that the insulin spike caused by the simple carbs will make you more prone to store that donut fat. Moreover, you are apt to be burning those readily available donuts carbs in your daily activities... remember that fat-burning is a VERY slow process that only kicks in after some 25-mins of cardio activity, provided there are no other carb sources available. The probability of making this diet fail turns into certainty with the correct timing: Imagine eating your donuts before going to bed, or before doing cardio (thus rendering cardio useless)

Our bodies are very complex systems, we don't like to make it complex... it's a complex environment and your food choices/timing will dictate whether you succeed or not.

 

[Joe Stenson]

Wow, I don't know what to say.

I spent the last hour writing a response to pintoca and then erased it. It included references from other sites and studies. In any event, there's no way in hell I'm typing that all out again. All I will say is this:

There is so much wrong with that post I didn't know where to begin. The general message of my post was simple: All of his theories and ideas on nutrition are terribly outdated. It sounds like he read a musclemag 5 years ago, and is just regurgitating what was common practice back then. I know, I read them back then as well.

To the rest of you: If you want some more up-to-date information I urge you to read other boards. That's honestly the one thing I notice about Elite. The Anabolic section is great; the training section includes tons of info you won't find anywhere else; the members are great and some of the most biggest guys you'll see; the Diet section, however, is horribly lacking. For example, people haven't talked about the GI of foods in years, yet here it shows up in every second post.

My 2 cents...and I apologize for being an idiot, mashing my keyboard somehow, and losing my post; it really was quite good.

 

[thewinkshow]

id say u nailed it in one pintoca.
if what joe is saying is correct i could eat 2000 calories worth of kebab meat,and as long as i burned off 2100 calories id lose weight, in practise it should work as there is more coming out than going in but,in reality it doesnt work like that our bodys are complex,there are alot of factors to consider.

 

[ebear]

To the rest of you: If you want some more up-to-date information I urge you to read other boards. That's honestly the one thing I notice about Elite. The Anabolic section is great; the training section includes tons of info you won't find anywhere else; the members are great and some of the most biggest guys you'll see; the Diet section, however, is horribly lacking. For example, people haven't talked about the GI of foods in years, yet here it shows up in every second post.

Hmm, what Pintoca said seemed right on to me. But since we should all be open to hearing other points of view, what sources (boards, etc.) would you recommend people have a look at for more up to date information?

 

[Joe Stenson]

id say u nailed it in one pintoca.
if what joe is saying is correct i could eat 2000 calories worth of kebab meat,and as long as i burned off 2100 calories id lose weight, in practise it should work as there is more coming out than going in but,in reality it doesnt work like that our bodys are complex,there are alot of factors to consider.

lol I don't know how many examples you could have picked that are worse than kebab meat, but it can't be many. It's like sarcastically saying if you could do only one leg exercise that you'd recommend leg press. Albeit not the king of leg exercises (squats), it's still a pretty damn good one.

Why the hell couldn't you lose weight (and more accurately, fat) eating kebab meat? Heck, that's basically a simplified Atkins diet right there.

Have you checked out the "All Natural PB" diet sticky at the top of this page? On that diet all you're eating is whey and anpb, hardly something that you or Pintoca would say allows you to lose weight...and yet "shockingly" enough, it works.

Hmm, what Pintoca said seemed right on to me. But since we should all be open to hearing other points of view, what sources (boards, etc.) would you recommend people have a look at for more up to date information?

A couple boards that spring to mind are the ones at www.avantlabs.com and www.bodyrecomposition.com.