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Westside training pros and cons?

SaiBoT

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I gave it some thought and since I'm more into powerlifting right now, than bodybuilding itself even though any functional size I can get it's quite welcome, I decided starting a WESTSIDE based routine, 2 Max effort and two Dinamic Effort days. Plus I'm on cycle right now (test-e and equipoise). So who has done it and stands for it or, on the contrary finds it not so good?

Thanks and K for all related and relevant answers!
 
Pro-
It works.
It's better for you in terms of overall physical conditioning as well as strength. I always felt I accomplished more yet was less tired throughout the week than with the bodybuilding program I had been doing.

Con- As you said, it's a powerlifting based program so it's goals are very specific to increasing your numbers in the 3 competition lifts.

My situation was similar to yours. It both opened my eyes to what effective gym strategy was and renewed my enthusiasm after years of hammering away at specific bodyparts. I was surprised at how much bigger I got. A fresh approach can go a long way. I also liked that it improved my athletic cordination - it wasn't just about adding bulk.

After a period of time,though, there were a few aspects of it I realized that weren't suited for my specific needs. The major issue I had was that I wasn't intending to compete as a powerlifter and wanted a more generalized training approach. Putting up numbers was cool, but not as important as working to improve other areas as well. Plus, I felt I did better spending more time on the actual lifts rather than choosing a variation. I'd no need to save myself for the big lift on competition day.
So I no longer do what would rightfully be called a Westside program. But the principles and lessons I learned are still integral to what I do every week.

I'm confident you'll be happy with your choice. It's an experience worth putting yourself through. And really, it's limiting factor is also it's strength- anything based on improving your basic compound lifts (bench, squat ,and deadlift) can't be wasted time. Even if you change your goals you'll always have that foundation to expand on.
 
Pro-
It works.
It's better for you in terms of overall physical conditioning as well as strength. I always felt I accomplished more yet was less tired throughout the week than with the bodybuilding program I had been doing.

Con- As you said, it's a powerlifting based program so it's goals are very specific to increasing your numbers in the 3 competition lifts.

My situation was similar to yours. It both opened my eyes to what effective gym strategy was and renewed my enthusiasm after years of hammering away at specific bodyparts. I was surprised at how much bigger I got. A fresh approach can go a long way. I also liked that it improved my athletic cordination - it wasn't just about adding bulk.

After a period of time,though, there were a few aspects of it I realized that weren't suited for my specific needs. The major issue I had was that I wasn't intending to compete as a powerlifter and wanted a more generalized training approach. Putting up numbers was cool, but not as important as working to improve other areas as well. Plus, I felt I did better spending more time on the actual lifts rather than choosing a variation. I'd no need to save myself for the big lift on competition day.
So I no longer do what would rightfully be called a Westside program. But the principles and lessons I learned are still integral to what I do every week.

I'm confident you'll be happy with your choice. It's an experience worth putting yourself through. And really, it's limiting factor is also it's strength- anything based on improving your basic compound lifts (bench, squat ,and deadlift) can't be wasted time. Even if you change your goals you'll always have that foundation to expand on.

Thanks for your time bro! Very nice post!
 
Check out westside for skinny bastards. I'm doing that right now and happy with the results so far. It's quite a bit different from normal westside training as it incorperates some hypertrophy training as well as powerlifting.
 
Check out westside for skinny bastards. I'm doing that right now and happy with the results so far. It's quite a bit different from normal westside training as it incorperates some hypertrophy training as well as powerlifting.

This is a good routine.
 
Check out westside for skinny bastards. I'm doing that right now and happy with the results so far. It's quite a bit different from normal westside training as it incorperates some hypertrophy training as well as powerlifting.

Yeah that's a good aproach, thanks for reminding me of that one!
 
I've trained WSB for the last many years. What you read on their website isn't even a tad of what they are really about.

The best advice I can give you for WSB is to get one of their Seminar Vids (I got 4 of them off the internet free, downloaded).

Also: GO TO YOUTUBE and search for EliteFTS.com and watch every single video that you possibly can of theirs...over and over again. Find a video downloader that will let you download from YouTube and save them as avi files on your pc...I have TONS of them!

Watch the Seminar Vids over and over again. They are NOT about a set routine...they are about doing whatever it takes to get YOU stronger. After you watch some of Dave Tate's vids (another training day) and his tricep and leg workouts...you will see what I mean.

What makes WSB so unique is that they focus on speed work, stay away from periodization, focus on weak points, and they blast the heck out of the core, triceps, and hamstrings.
 
I've trained WSB for the last many years. What you read on their website isn't even a tad of what they are really about.

The best advice I can give you for WSB is to get one of their Seminar Vids (I got 4 of them off the internet free, downloaded).

Also: GO TO YOUTUBE and search for EliteFTS.com and watch every single video that you possibly can of theirs...over and over again. Find a video downloader that will let you download from YouTube and save them as avi files on your pc...I have TONS of them!

Watch the Seminar Vids over and over again. They are NOT about a set routine...they are about doing whatever it takes to get YOU stronger. After you watch some of Dave Tate's vids (another training day) and his tricep and leg workouts...you will see what I mean.

What makes WSB so unique is that they focus on speed work, stay away from periodization, focus on weak points, and they blast the heck out of the core, triceps, and hamstrings.

I will definitely check out these tips, thanks!
 
Pro's of the Standard Template:

Variation: Because you are doing a variety of exercises on max effort day, it helps keep things fresh and keeps you motivated. Plus most people have never done board presses, floor presses or box squats before trying the standard template, so there are a lot of new exercises being utilized.

Record Breaking – You are doing two max effort days a week, so you have the ability to break a lot of personal records. This can keep motivation high and give you tangible results NOW. This is one of the best things about this template.

Easy: I never thought I would say this but if you actually think about it, the standard template is pretty easy to follow IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT. You have one slow and heavy day and one fast and light day for the squat and bench press. After each of those days, you train the muscles that involve those lifts. You try to be fast on one day, try to lift heavy on the other day and get huge afterward.

Combo of Max Effort, Dynamic Effort and Repetition Training: If done correctly, this combo is incredible. You can get fast, big and strong. These are three qualities that most people really want.

Flexibility with Supplemental/Accessory lifts – If you are doing the correct loading on max effort and dynamic day, then you can really play around with the volume with your training on these lifts. Let me explain: With the dynamic training, you are almost always operating within 50-60% and no matter what max effort exercise you choose, you are still operating around 90-100%. Now your volume can be raised and lowered by your assistance lifts. This can give you a lot of room to play around with and allow you to pick and choose exercises and volume based on how you feel that day.

Con's of the Standard Template:

Variation: Now stay with me on this one. Training for a big squat, bench and deadlift is not easy. But if you don't have good form on these three lifts, then things can start to go down hill. You can counter me and say, "Your form is trained on dynamic day." And to you I respond, "Fool! It's easy to lift correctly with light weight." While a safety squat bar can help increase your squat and deadlift, it won't teach you correct form. This is because the variation of the bar will throw your form off. Then you throw this nugget at me, "Well, I will work up on dynamic day to 90%" and to you I respond, "Are you now doing two max effort workouts a week?" Remember that if you are going to throw in a new wrinkle, then you are going to have to smooth something else out. You can't just add without taking away. (And this will be discussed in a future article).

Record Breaking: Now I've got two of the same things for pro and con. While record breaking is a good thing, it can also lead to a mentality of "testing" versus "training". Too many people try to break a record and will not fall within the 3-5 lifts at or above 90% of their max. All of their focus is devoted to breaking a PR rather than training to get stronger.

Too Heavy on Dynamic – I would say that the vast majority of questions about the squat revolve around dynamic squat day. Now if you take a step back and look, the PURPOSE of dynamic day (and again, I fall victim to trying to make things too simple) is to basically move the weight from point A to point B as fast as possible. Now for the bench, that is to move the bar from your chest to lockout; in the squat (or box squat) that is to move from off the box to standing. So now that we've established that, the problem that I've seen is that most people, when you add up the band tension and bar weight (and factor in that they are basing the percentages on a full-meet squat with equipment and they are doing an un suited box squat (different lifts!)): they are actually not even close to doing a dynamic workout. This is not so much a con of the program, but a con of the interpretation of the program. This wouldn't be a horrible thing if the max effort work and supplemental work was cut back, but 99% of the time, it's not. This was really driven home a couple of weeks ago in a conversation with Mark McLaughlin. To quote Mark, "The reason I think people some times bash DE work is because they do not execute it properly."
 
Pro's of the Standard Template:

Variation: Because you are doing a variety of exercises on max effort day, it helps keep things fresh and keeps you motivated. Plus most people have never done board presses, floor presses or box squats before trying the standard template, so there are a lot of new exercises being utilized.

Record Breaking – You are doing two max effort days a week, so you have the ability to break a lot of personal records. This can keep motivation high and give you tangible results NOW. This is one of the best things about this template.

Easy: I never thought I would say this but if you actually think about it, the standard template is pretty easy to follow IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT. You have one slow and heavy day and one fast and light day for the squat and bench press. After each of those days, you train the muscles that involve those lifts. You try to be fast on one day, try to lift heavy on the other day and get huge afterward.

Combo of Max Effort, Dynamic Effort and Repetition Training: If done correctly, this combo is incredible. You can get fast, big and strong. These are three qualities that most people really want.

Flexibility with Supplemental/Accessory lifts – If you are doing the correct loading on max effort and dynamic day, then you can really play around with the volume with your training on these lifts. Let me explain: With the dynamic training, you are almost always operating within 50-60% and no matter what max effort exercise you choose, you are still operating around 90-100%. Now your volume can be raised and lowered by your assistance lifts. This can give you a lot of room to play around with and allow you to pick and choose exercises and volume based on how you feel that day.

Con's of the Standard Template:

Variation: Now stay with me on this one. Training for a big squat, bench and deadlift is not easy. But if you don't have good form on these three lifts, then things can start to go down hill. You can counter me and say, "Your form is trained on dynamic day." And to you I respond, "Fool! It's easy to lift correctly with light weight." While a safety squat bar can help increase your squat and deadlift, it won't teach you correct form. This is because the variation of the bar will throw your form off. Then you throw this nugget at me, "Well, I will work up on dynamic day to 90%" and to you I respond, "Are you now doing two max effort workouts a week?" Remember that if you are going to throw in a new wrinkle, then you are going to have to smooth something else out. You can't just add without taking away. (And this will be discussed in a future article).

Record Breaking: Now I've got two of the same things for pro and con. While record breaking is a good thing, it can also lead to a mentality of "testing" versus "training". Too many people try to break a record and will not fall within the 3-5 lifts at or above 90% of their max. All of their focus is devoted to breaking a PR rather than training to get stronger.

Too Heavy on Dynamic – I would say that the vast majority of questions about the squat revolve around dynamic squat day. Now if you take a step back and look, the PURPOSE of dynamic day (and again, I fall victim to trying to make things too simple) is to basically move the weight from point A to point B as fast as possible. Now for the bench, that is to move the bar from your chest to lockout; in the squat (or box squat) that is to move from off the box to standing. So now that we've established that, the problem that I've seen is that most people, when you add up the band tension and bar weight (and factor in that they are basing the percentages on a full-meet squat with equipment and they are doing an un suited box squat (different lifts!)): they are actually not even close to doing a dynamic workout. This is not so much a con of the program, but a con of the interpretation of the program. This wouldn't be a horrible thing if the max effort work and supplemental work was cut back, but 99% of the time, it's not. This was really driven home a couple of weeks ago in a conversation with Mark McLaughlin. To quote Mark, "The reason I think people some times bash DE work is because they do not execute it properly."

The pro's greatly outweight the con's and I'm experienced enough to know that this won't happen with me! Thanks for sharing!
 
Everyone's raised some good points. One thing to consider is whether you will be doing equipped (using a suit, or heavy wraps) lifts or not.

If you're not, and I don't see any reason to unless you've plans for competition IMO, then you need to alter your plan. Cut down on some of that extra triceps work as it is designed to take advantage of the shirt. Same with excessive rack DL, esp. those starting high on the rack. Anything more than 3 board press is unnecessary. On your speed work it's a good idea to increase your weight by 5%. Chains and bands are good as ever but be careful not to become overdependent on them. The underlying idea, besides the obvious one of not training to maximize the advantages of your equipment, is that you also need to work your stabilizers more to handle the increases in weight. A suit helps hold everything in place.
 
Everyone's raised some good points. One thing to consider is whether you will be doing equipped (using a suit, or heavy wraps) lifts or not.

If you're not, and I don't see any reason to unless you've plans for competition IMO, then you need to alter your plan. Cut down on some of that extra triceps work as it is designed to take advantage of the shirt. Same with excessive rack DL, esp. those starting high on the rack. Anything more than 3 board press is unnecessary. On your speed work it's a good idea to increase your weight by 5%. Chains and bands are good as ever but be careful not to become overdependent on them. The underlying idea, besides the obvious one of not training to maximize the advantages of your equipment, is that you also need to work your stabilizers more to handle the increases in weight. A suit helps hold everything in place.

All the lifts are to be made raw, so for the bench:
I shouldn't be doing higher than three boards lock outs?

I should work on 60% range on DE days and focus more on shoulder stability, like front raises, lateral raises, rotator cuff exercises?

Strengthening the bottom explosiveness, through back training like chin ups, rows, back delts, through dumbell bench press, benching with pause at bottom, would dips be a valide addiction?

For deadlifts and squats, would be focusing on deep squats, RDL, back extensions, good mornings, lunges, zercher and front, squats, unilateral leg work maybe? stuff like that?

And the obvious ab work also! Thanks
 
The idea behind 3-5 board lockouts is that you've used the shirt to help spring the weight up and now you've got to develop the raw strength to lock the weight out for a successful lift. No shirt = no need to develop that specific ability. If you have trouble at the top of the lift you could try static holds at 110% of maximum or band overhead press or band board press.

It's not necessary to overemphasize shoulder work. Tris are still the big factor besides pecs in moving the bar. The fact that there are more shoulder injuries than triceps injuries shows that the triceps can take more work than we give them credit for. So, really, it's a judgement call. It's probably better to stick with the template until you've identified where you need to make improvements and have developed the understanding necessary to make successful modification.

All the exercises you mentioned are good ones. What you should do is develop a core group of 3-5 exercises for each phase of your workout. One set for ME and one for accessory. These will be exercises that address the needs you have and you feel work especially well for you. This gives your plan focus - repetition is still an important concept. As your needs change or for reasons of variety, you can gradually change what you include in your core group.

Another area to consider is work capacity/general fitness: can you do the planned workout with adequate intensity? The fitter you are, the better your performance will be in the gym.
 
Saibot

Do you still have that bench routine I sent you?

That would be perfect since it is written based on conjugate periodization but specifically for raw benchers.
 
Saibot

Do you still have that bench routine I sent you?

That would be perfect since it is written based on conjugate periodization but specifically for raw benchers.

Yes I have it, I've been reading it again and again lately, yeah and realized that has alot to do with Simmons ideas like the extra back work, (well extra by bodybuilding standards, DE, delt work, tris) I was just having a hard putting it together as a routine in whole, mainly due to my schedule and because I wasn't sure if getting into a powerlifting routine was what I really wanted even because I don't have experienced powerlifting eyes watching over me, it sucks to be in a fitness center and not having access to bands and chains, but it's 5 min away from home and changing it's not really an option.

Still I gotta work with what I have right? and now that I made up my mind, conjugate method for raw or suit lifting makes perfect sense. Thanks bro.
 
The idea behind 3-5 board lockouts is that you've used the shirt to help spring the weight up and now you've got to develop the raw strength to lock the weight out for a successful lift. No shirt = no need to develop that specific ability. If you have trouble at the top of the lift you could try static holds at 110% of maximum or band overhead press or band board press.

It's not necessary to overemphasize shoulder work. Tris are still the big factor besides pecs in moving the bar. The fact that there are more shoulder injuries than triceps injuries shows that the triceps can take more work than we give them credit for. So, really, it's a judgement call. It's probably better to stick with the template until you've identified where you need to make improvements and have developed the understanding necessary to make successful modification.

All the exercises you mentioned are good ones. What you should do is develop a core group of 3-5 exercises for each phase of your workout. One set for ME and one for accessory. These will be exercises that address the needs you have and you feel work especially well for you. This gives your plan focus - repetition is still an important concept. As your needs change or for reasons of variety, you can gradually change what you include in your core group.

Another area to consider is work capacity/general fitness: can you do the planned workout with adequate intensity? The fitter you are, the better your performance will be in the gym.

I see what you mean, I just hope that the journey to get where I want hasn't too many obstacles, it's good to learn from the you and others experienced on this particular method, but it will come to my specific weak points and goals.

One area I've found to be a stick point on my deadlift right now it's the lockout, as well on the bench my sticking point it's around 10 inches above my chest, on squats I'm still good, I've been able to increase the weight every week without a problem so this don't worry me.
 
Just buy some bands...solves a lot!
 
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