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Weight: Natural V. Gear
- Thread starter Sebass67
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Lord_Suston
New member
192 natural here.
Rockafella Skank
New member
Twofiddy, natural.
BigBazooka
New member
Wait just a sec and I'll get the fat lady from the cafeteria to log-in and vote on your skinny bootay. She's at least 350 and natural!
T
The Shadow
Guest
Don't like the poll. Slanted.
A lot of people do 2-3 cycles per year with months off in between.
So - someone who has done a cycle b-4, but has been clean for several months would vote how??
Technically that person would be natural at the moment.
A lot of people do 2-3 cycles per year with months off in between.
So - someone who has done a cycle b-4, but has been clean for several months would vote how??
Technically that person would be natural at the moment.
supersizeme
New member
i have always considered anyone who has ever injected or swallowed some type of steroid to lose "natural" status for the remainder of their time in the iron game. the technicality of "i'm currently not on right now" doesn't really make any sense. ok so you are not currently on, however look at the gains you have made in the past from gear. it will still outpace a natural guy. it's somewhat insulting to someone who has never juiced to hear a guy consider himself to be in the same class as you simply because he hasn't done gear in a few months.
T
The Shadow
Guest
supersizeme said:
Not a completely logical argument....genetics still play the ultimate game of levelling. Drugs simply allow you to reach your potential faster. Two identical twins - one natural and one not will eventuall each get to the upper limit of his, her genetic ability. One faster than the other.
What's so natural about popping 20 grams of creatine at a time??
havoc
Shaolin Ninja
Cornholio said:
Because creatine is not classified as a steroid. When we speak natural, we are talking about using steroids or not using steroids. Creatine is irrelevant. Does the poll above include creatine use? No, its speaking of gear. "Drugs simply allow you to reach your potential faster", I must respectively disagree, they give you a false impression and have nothing to do with "potential". Potential or genetic ability is truly reached without drugs. peace
supersizeme
New member
Cornholio said:
The day a cycle of creatine produces the same results as a roid cycle will be the day you can call that guy on the creatine cycle a "juichead." My point is not the speed of how quickly you get there, or whether you even get there for that matter. It's the fact that a "natural state" of bodybuilding should be completely steroid free. I don't care if 5 years ago you took a few A-bombs, you're still not ever going to be natural in my eyes. There's a crossing over that one can't come back from. The whole "what about creatine, protein supplements, glutamine, etc." side to the natural argument is doggie poo. We all know the difference between the results of A.S. and the results of non A.S. substances.
THeMaCHinE
New member
havoc said:
Including weed?
T
The Shadow
Guest
What about prohormones etc.
Havoc - do you mean then, that drugs will allow you to surpass genetic limitations?? Surely not??
Havoc - do you mean then, that drugs will allow you to surpass genetic limitations?? Surely not??
havoc
Shaolin Ninja
THeMaCHinE said:
When I said drugs, I was speaking of Anabolic Steroids. Weed to me is not a drug, its a sacrament, I view it as I would view brushing my teeth or doing my laundry, its just a part of my life. Although weed will provide little or no help on a physical level, the mental level and inclination cannot be denied, in my experiences at least. peace
havoc
Shaolin Ninja
Cornholio said:
Prohormones do not come close to AS, just like creatine.
"Havoc - do you mean then, that drugs will allow you to surpass genetic limitations?? Surely not?"
Exactly, they do not allow you to surpass your genetic limitations/potential. They give you a false impression, your body lets you know your genetic limitations/potential by regressing when one gets off. peace
T
The Shadow
Guest
Most will do a cycle. They get off and drop weight. Most will not do another cycle until their bodyweight gets to where it was b-4 the cycle ended. To me, that's the proper way to cycle. Perhaps a little off topic.
btw - the newest prohormones on the market are 6 times as anabolic as test....
btw - the newest prohormones on the market are 6 times as anabolic as test....
T
The Shadow
Guest
havoc said:
Saw the research study. Very promising. Will they yield real-world results?? Time will tell.
Good discussion.
Captain_insano
New member
supersizeme said:
I concur with SS. 195 Natural here.
T
The Shadow
Guest
WODIN said:
Gimme till after lunch...
T
The Shadow
Guest
dgreenhill said:
1 - Everyone should train naturally for at least a few years. Solid knowledge will yield greater results down the road.
2 - Same as "real" roids. Will lead to receptor lag and eventually "clog" if not cycled properly.
T
The Shadow
Guest
casavant said:
Not exactly what I meant. I mean that the same guys will be winning with or without drugs based on the genetics.
supersizeme
New member
cornmeal - winning what? i hope you don't mean pro-bodybuilding contests.
ironbarbarian
New member
CORNHOLIO IS RIGHT
See bro, the ones who only post in the anabolic board do check the chat board... LMAO
Okay, let me shime here.
You are all presenting great arguments. Cornholio is partly right. Why do you guys consider taking Creatine natural? What about lifting weights? or taking 300g of protein? I mean yeah I know these substances or activities are "okay" by the community and are not "drugs" but I mean who told you guys that your body was meant to be treated like this?
What about keto diets or prohormones, is that considered natural?
BB is an extreme sport. And yeah I do agree in the fact that if you are on or off steroids you are considered a non-natural bodybuilder/athlete. Your true genetic potential must be achieved naturally as Havoc said but steroids do help you surpass that point, and thats why we see Ronnies and Levrones competing in Mr. Olympia contests.
This is a nice discussion with no end.
That being said, I did loose my steroid virginity already. And though I am off steroids for probably the next 3 years, I'm still a juice head. But there is no way I will look as I did when I was cycling during this period. So my question is, do I become natural after being off for a while? think about it, the guys who juice will have a different answer than the guys who have never juiced. Have a nice day
IB
See bro, the ones who only post in the anabolic board do check the chat board... LMAO
Okay, let me shime here.
You are all presenting great arguments. Cornholio is partly right. Why do you guys consider taking Creatine natural? What about lifting weights? or taking 300g of protein? I mean yeah I know these substances or activities are "okay" by the community and are not "drugs" but I mean who told you guys that your body was meant to be treated like this?
What about keto diets or prohormones, is that considered natural?
BB is an extreme sport. And yeah I do agree in the fact that if you are on or off steroids you are considered a non-natural bodybuilder/athlete. Your true genetic potential must be achieved naturally as Havoc said but steroids do help you surpass that point, and thats why we see Ronnies and Levrones competing in Mr. Olympia contests.
This is a nice discussion with no end.
That being said, I did loose my steroid virginity already. And though I am off steroids for probably the next 3 years, I'm still a juice head. But there is no way I will look as I did when I was cycling during this period. So my question is, do I become natural after being off for a while? think about it, the guys who juice will have a different answer than the guys who have never juiced. Have a nice day
IB
T
The Shadow
Guest
supersizeme said:
Damn right. you take away all the drugs and the same mofo's who were winning oiled will be winning clean.
casavant
New member
Cornholio said:
OK, so you're saying that if you took away all the drugs from EVERYBODY, the same people would win? I agree with that. What I thought you meant by your previous post was that you can reach the same level without drugs, it just takes longer, in which case I disagree.
this pole doesn't really make sense...you at least need to include height into the equation, otherwise there is no basis for comparison. It doesn't make sense to compare someone who is 5"6", juices, weighs 190, and is in great shape to someone 6"4", 25% bodyfat and natural, and weighs 250. What does that prove or disprove? You at least need to compare based on height and approximate build, lenght of time working out, diet, genetics, etc. etc.
T
The Shadow
Guest
WODIN said:
LOL!!
It's apparently at the gym, I even ran home during luch to look for it...be patient grasshopper.
T
The Shadow
Guest
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------WODIN said:
Wodin - here's is th copy that went in the magazine. I'll put up the references from the abstractif/when I find them
The first Pro-Steroid Delivery System... MAG-10™
The time is right! We've done a lot of work in this area. And, now, for the first time ever, we're ready to talk about it. What follows is a detailed explanation of some of what we've been doing behind closed doors for the last two years. Bottom line, we believe we've actually accomplished what every sport-supplement company has been trying to do since the 80's:
We've designed a safe and highly effective pro-steroid delivery system that works like the real thing!
We're so excited about our discovery that we couldn't wait any longer. It's time for us to unveil this monster for the world to see. We're not going to mince words or equivocate, either. We give you our word that this is not a bunch of hype. We absolutely believe that you'll be blown away with what follows.
Since the 80's, bodybuilders have been using exotic, designer steroids to build bodies that simply put, are not attainable by any other means. Year after year the pros would compete to see who could make the freakiest physique advancements (which is what the sport is all about now). Behind the scenes, conversations switched from discussing the next cool training technique, to talking about what new designer steroid stack the in-the-know clique is using.
Essentially, bodybuilders were beginning to utilize steroids that were engineered to overcome some of the inherent problems caused by taking their androgen levels way over the top. Prior to the 80's, for whatever reason, physique and strength athletes stuck with Testosterone, Deca Durabolin, and Dianabol as their primary choices.
Nobody ever thought about including anti-estrogens in their drug cycles, and finasteride wasn't available until 1988. So, on a serious cycle, estrogen and DHT levels would soar sky high, resulting in a bunch of bloated, bald men walking around with size DD nonnies. Remember Meatloaf in Fight Club?
But that all changed in the 80's. Bodybuilders began to carefully choose their anabolic gear. Winstrol, Primobolan, Parabolan, Equipoise, Anavar, and Anadrol-50 became the preferred choices. Careful attention was placed on stacking synergistic compounds together that would deliver what everyone was after — outrageous size and cuts with minimal side effects.
From the 80's until now, there's been enormous emphasis placed on the fantastic gains that can be attained from steroid use. This fascination has created a demand for anabolic agents that's tantamount to the most-crazed sex drive imaginable. Almost every guy in the muscle world is, in one way or another, fascinated with steroids — even obsessed.
Anyone with just a smidgen of interest in building a buff body believes that their gains would be limited without them. Even though very few actually go that extra step and take "drugs," everyone deep down knows steroids deliver the goods like nothing else, period.
Realizing this, the supplement industry has done everything in its power to either formulate a legitimate steroid alternative, or to make you believe they have. Just look at all the supplements out there with steroid-sounding names.
When you boil it down, sports nutrition as we know it today, wouldn't exist if there weren't this romantic and extreme obsession with steroids. And rightfully so — it's not often in human physiology that such dramatic results can be obtained from a syringe or bottle of pills. It's truly a physique in a bottle.
No matter what you think about steroid use, the fact remains that every single solitary person who uses them achieves a physique that they could otherwise never, ever come close to attaining.
Our goal was to bridge the gap between over-the-counter supplements and real, hardcore androgens — safely as well as effectively. We wanted to design the first pro-steroid delivery system that works like the real deal. Well, we've done it. And not only that, our design soars way past our highest expectations.
MAG-10 not only bridges the gap — it's an equal among true steroids.
First Attempt
Since day one, Biotest has been searching for the ultimate combination of compounds that would actually produce results similar to a serious steroid cycle. Two years ago, I met with Bill Roberts and asked him to develop the most effective prohormone supplement design possible.
I told him that we didn't just want something better. We wanted something that would revolutionize and shock the supplement user. Furthermore, we wanted a formulation that was so over-the-top that it would silence even the most skeptical critics.
We came up with the term pro-steroids to best describe our design goals. And over the last two years, as many of you know, Biotest was able to develop two of these big boys. These are serious androgens that are literally one-step precursors to Testosterone and Nandrolone with 100% efficiency. The names?
Testosterone 17-cyclopent-1'-enyl ether (T-17E)
Nandrolone 17-cyclopent-1'-enyl ether (N-17E)
Both of the compounds truly do exist and have been ready to manufacture for quite some time. However, we opted not to produce T-17E and N-17E due to two basic concerns: First, they could potentially cause significant side effects — gyno, hair loss, prostate enlargement, bloating, and reduced sex drive. And second, neither one worked synergistically with the other.
Both T-17E and N-17E strongly bind to the androgen receptor (AR). In other words, they compete with one another. We call this kind of steroid "Class I." To create a synergy, we need to include the other kind of steroid — which imparts its actions through additional means and doesn't strongly bind to the AR — called "Class II."
To date, the only legal Class-II androgen we've found that meets our criteria — minimum side effects with maximal gains — is 4-androstenediol (4-AD).
Surprisingly enough, 4-AD is 95% as potent as Testosterone, and it turns out that it's a very important steroid in the body: Biotest research uncovered that there's actually more 4-AD in the blood than Testosterone, something that scientists had not generally been aware of. Since it's comparably potent to Testosterone, it has tremendous promise as a legal anabolic, but its effectiveness depends on actually getting enough into the body.
Early products, particularly capsules, weren't effective because so little of the drug reached the blood, and duration of action was short. These problems were largely solved with the introduction of Androsol. Using transdermal delivery, Androsol is able to achieve sustained super-high blood levels of 4-AD (in the ballpark of 3000 ng/dL!) and to produce excellent muscle-building results.
A 5-lb gain in LBM within the first two weeks of use is common, given high protein intake, sufficient calories, and proficient training. Some users have even experienced a 10-lb LBM gain in two weeks!
Big Room for Improvement
While 4-AD in an effective formulation such as Androsol is very good for aiding muscle mass gains, it doesn't represent the optimum anabolic strategy in two regards:
First, there are problems in efficiency of absorption and duration of action. Androsol gave an excellent improvement in duration of action, providing an increase from 3-4 hours to over 12 hours, and produced a stunning improvement in efficiency compared to oral capsules. However, the efficiency still isn't as high as we'd like, as it requires the application of up to a full gram per day to achieve maximal results.
Secondly, like we've already said, it's well known that most anabolic steroids are best utilized when stacked with certain other anabolic steroids. If you hit the right combination, you get a synergistic effect where the sum is greater than the individual parts.
Using just 4-AD by itself is somewhat like using Dianabol by itself — without the estrogen-related side effects, or the hair loss problems. However, no sophisticated steroid user takes Dianabol by itself. Instead, they'll opt for a synergistic combination, like Deca plus Dianabol, which imparts significantly better gains.
The optimum situation is when both the AR-mediated and non-AR-mediated mechanisms are working full speed to build muscle. This is, of course, achieved when sufficient doses of a Class-I steroid are stacked with a Class-II steroid.
So our objectives for our pro-steroid complex MAG-10 became quite clear:
Fix the problems with 4-AD and find a legal Class-I steroid, without estrogen or DHT side effects, to stack it with.
Fixing the problems with 4-AD was surprisingly simple. Bill drew from his drug-design background and blueprinted a powerful one-step solution. He decided to add a chemical structure called a "protective group" onto the 4-AD molecule. We didn't use just any protective group, either. We chose ethylcarbonate ester (EC) for the job. Reason being, it's by far the most efficient "ester" at accomplishing our goals:
EC won't break down in the digestive tract and it's far superior at increasing the absorption rate and extending the active life.
With 4-AD ethylcarbonate ester (4-AD-EC), we were able to dramatically increase efficiency of absorption and duration of action. Combined with our liquid delivery system, we've achieved nearly 100% efficiency with more than 24 hours of active life from one single dose!
Well, that's one down and one to go. All we need is an ideal Class-I androgen to partner up with 4-AD-EC and we'll have our anabolic monster.
The First Legal, Mega-Potent Class-I Androgen
As we mentioned earlier, despite all the work we put into T-17E and N-17E — both Class-I steroids — neither could be made as safe as we insisted they had to be, requiring us to go another route. The interesting thing is, we've had an alternative compound in our possession that we've held in the strictest secrecy until this very moment.
We have another Class-I androgen in the pipeline that's exactly what we want. Animal tests show that it's 2-3 times as potent as Testosterone, and that it doesn't convert to estrogen, DHT, or 5alpha-diol (the DHT metabolite that's implicated in hair loss). It does just exactly what it's supposed to — build muscle without these side effects. You couldn't ask for anything better.
The name of this big-gun Class-I androgen is 17-hydroxyandrost-1-ene-3-one or Androst-1-ene, also erroneously known as "1-Testosterone."
[Editors note: Androst-1-ene is not a form of Testosterone at all. Recently, however, certain individuals in the supplement industry have been loosely referring to it as 1-Testosterone.]
Now, others have attempted to provide Androst-1-ene by manufacturing Androst-1-ene prohormones (not pro-steroids). The first such product was 1-androstenedione. Like 4-androstenedione, it's inherently inactive, which is a real disadvantage, but some small amount of it could convert to Androst-1-ene.
All in all, 1- androstenedione is nothing we'd ever consider using — too little of it converts to Androst-1-ene to allow much anabolic effect, and the great majority that doesn't convert is completely inactive and wasted.
Basically, this product flopped, and was swiftly replaced with 1-androstenediol (1-AD), with the hope that the conversion would be more efficient. 1-AD is somewhat better than 1-androstenedione, but it's still not very potent.
In fact, when injected, it only has 40% the potency of Testosterone. And you only get that much conversion when you use a limited, small amount. As a result of the limitation, there's a "ceiling" to how much effect you can get. And this ceiling is not very high. Orally, it's even worse. Almost all of it is wasted.
In contrast, as mentioned, Androst-1-ene has two or three times the anabolic potency of Testosterone, can't convert into estrogen, and is not affected by the 5alpha-reductase enzyme in the scalp. In other words, there are no DHT, hair-loss, or estrogen problems to be concerned with. And get this: It can reasonably be called a natural, legal analogue to Primobolan — Androst-1-ene is nearly identical in chemical structure and behavior — except that it's more potent!
Why use inefficient diol or dione precursors of Androst-1-ene when you can have the real thing?
The even better approach, however, is to provide Androst-1-ene with the same "protective group" that 4-AD-EC has. Then, when combined with our liquid delivery system, you'll have close to 100% efficiency, increased absorption, and an active life of more than 24 hours! This is legal and precisely what Biotest has done. The finished compound is called Androst-1-ene ethylcarbonate ester (A1-E™).
If you mix 4-AD-EC and A1-E together in a perfect ratio, you have MAG-10. And if you use MAG-10 as recommended, you will absolutely achieve steroid-like gains! We promise.
MAG-10… The Destroyer of All Prohormones
In effect, what we've done is render all other prohormone products completely obsolete. Now, there's no reason whatsoever to use Androsol, 1-AD, 4-AD, or anything else. We know this sounds outrageous and like marketing hype, but it's 100% true!
Biotest has filed patents on both 4-AD-EC and A1-E. So unless we license other companies, Biotest will be the only place you'll be able to get these heavily muscled, nuclear weapons.
As mentioned, MAG-10 is a stack of 4-AD-EC and A1-E that's combined in a special, liquid delivery system. This liquid carrier is killer, too. We contracted a top of the line, high tech, drug-delivery laboratory to design the system. As a result, we're able to orally deliver very close to 100% of the active materials into the blood!
MAG-10 is the culmination of several super-smart scientists who've devoted a total of two years to the project. Everyone involved agrees that the outcome of our efforts goes so far beyond what we ever expected that it's hard to explain in words. Bottom line, MAG-10 will rock your anabolic world like never before.
In summary, MAG-10 is the first and only, legal pro-steroid delivery system that…
• Produces real steroid-like gains through the combination of A1-E and 4-AD-EC — the premier Class I and Class-II androgens.
• Covers all the anabolic bases, achieving optimal muscle-mass gains, without estrogen or DHT side effects.
• Is 100% efficient at converting into active, anabolic compounds.
• Maintains an active life of more than 24 hours from one single dose.
• Provides an advanced oral liquid delivery system, thereby increasing absorption efficiency over any other compound on the market (to the point of "no contest!").
T
The Shadow
Guest
up
T
The Shadow
Guest
WODIN said:
Correct - but I think they are on to something.
Jim - what proh have you used??
supersizeme
New member
yeah you got that off t-mag. Mag-10 is nothing revolutionary...it's still prohormones. i've read a few reviews from people who have taken it, and it doesn't have nearly the effect that they claim it does.
casavant
New member
supersizeme said:
Of course it doesn't- that's just marketing hype. And if they ever do come out with a pro-hormone whose potency approaches or surpasses that of anabolic steroids, how much do you really think it would differ in terms of side effects? And how long do you think it would stay legal? Not very much, and not very long.
T
The Shadow
Guest
WODIN - here's the 411
1-AD INFORMATION
What is it?
1-AD is the proprietary name for the prohormone 5alpha-androst-1-en-3,17-dione. 1-AD has the following properties:
· Orally active – greatly suppressed liver deactivation
· Converts directly and efficiently to a hormone over 700% more potent than testosterone
· Does not aromatize, nor do any of its metabolic products - absolutely no estrogen formation
· A naturally occurring endogenous hormone in man
Naturally occurring and proven to convert
1-AD has been shown to be present as a urinary androgen metabolite in both healthy and diseased men. This compound can interact in-vivo with the enzyme 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase to form the active anabolic / androgenic hormone 17beta-hydroxy-5alpha-androst-1-en-3-one (1-testosterone). Evidence for this in-vivo conversion exists in the literature. 100mg of 1-AD given orally to men was found to result in considerable excretion of 1-testosterone in the urine.
Orally active
Androgenic steroids are normally not very active orally. Large amounts have to be taken orally to see biological effects. This is because the liver first pass causes a massive deactivation of the compounds, primarily through oxidation to17-keto steroids. Chemists long ago found that by adding an alkyl (methyl or ethyl) chemical group to the 17-carbon, this oxidation can be prevented. However, this alkyl derivatization also greatly increases the toxicity on the liver. Therefore the usage of such synthetically altered compounds (Methyl Testosterone, Anadrol, Winstrol) are not without substantial risk.
Luckily another structural modification was found to block the undesirable liver oxidative deactivation – and do so in a manner that does not lead to liver toxicity problems. Specifically, we are talking about the introduction of a double bond in the 1- position of the steroid molecule.
Most active steroids (4-androstenediol, testosterone, nandrolone) have bonds in the 4-position. If you take that double bond and "switch it" to the 1-position, then something very unique happens to the way your body metabolizes the steroid. The main route of deactivation, the 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (17beta-HSD) reaction, gets profoundly altered. The 17beta-HSD reaction is what is known as an equilibrium reaction (goes both ways), and for steroids with double bonds in the normal 4-position, this equilibrium reaction leans predominantly towards oxidative deactivation.
However, when the double bond is switched to the 1-position, the equilibrium is suddenly shifted in the other direction – towards activation of the steroid. What this means is that when you take 1-AD, a very large percentage of it will convert to "1-testosterone". Furthermore, the 1-tesosterone that is formed will be very stable, and will not quickly convert back to 1-AD.
The 1-position double bond was actually utilized in the design of Methenolone (Primobolan), which is well known by bodybuilders to be an orally active, liver safe anabolic steroid. Primobolan owes its oral activity in large part to the same structural characteristic that makes 1-AD orally active (compare the 1-AD structure to the Methenolone structure).
The amazing "1-testosterone"
All this comes together perfectly for us here. First we discover a new natural prohormone, 1-androstenedione. Secondly we discover that this prohormone is orally active. The third and fourth discoveries however, really make 1-AD shine superior.
1-AD does not convert to testosterone. Instead it converts to an isomer (a close chemical derivative) of testosterone. That isomer is known as 17beta-hydroxy-5alpha-androst-1-en-3-one, or "1-testosterone". Chemically speaking, it is simply an analog of testosterone that has the double bond in the 1-position instead of the 4-position. There are more than just chemical differences here though. 1-testosterone differs from regular testosterone, or "4-testosterone", in a couple of very amazing ways.
First of all, 1-testosterone’s anabolic activity is considerably greater than that of testosterone. In fact, it has been shown to be over 7 times as myotrophic (anabolic to muscle) than testosterone! That is not a typo - please check the reference if you do not believe me. Very, very few prescription anabolic agents even share such amazing power. I don’t think I have to say much more on this aspect.
No aromatization to estrogen
As if 1-testosterone being over 7 times as anabolic as testosterone was not enogh. 1-testosterone also DOES NOT AROMATIZE to estrogens. Being a 5alpha-reduced androgen (a DHT derivative) it simply cannot aromatize. The same goes for its precursor 1-AD; it too cannot aromatize to any extent whatsoever. This alone makes 1-AD superior to all other prohormones (diol or dione, nor or andro) because all other prohormones either aromatize themselves or convert to a hormone that aromatizes.
Bringing it all together
Lets put this all into perspective. When you take 1-AD orally, a high percentage of it gets past the liver. A high percentage of the 1-AD is then converted to its active hormone, 1-testosterone. This 1-testosterone is extremely potent and imparts strong anabolic effects on your muscle tissue. Furthermore, this 1-testosterone stays around for a while, and is not easily metabolized to inactive 17-keto steroids. And lastly, none of the 1-AD or 1-testosterone, or any other metabolic by product of the two can aromatize to estrogens.
After reading this, I don’t think you can argue that 1-AD is a huge cut above all the other prohormones that came before it. Even the prohormones that others have theorized about, but have yet to market, do not even come close to 1-AD. But what have I observed in the real world you may ask? I have found that 1-AD is extremely effective for strength gains, motivation in the gym, and muscle hardness. It is only moderately effective for weight gain however, and this is very likely due to the fact that water retention is minimal (no aromatization). Qualitatively speaking, its results are very similar to a strong androgen/anabolic like trenbolone.
I hope you found this interesting. Now that you know what 1-AD is and what it can do I hope that you will all give 1-AD a try.
ergopharm-1-ad-information
1-AD INFORMATION
What is it?
1-AD is the proprietary name for the prohormone 5alpha-androst-1-en-3,17-dione. 1-AD has the following properties:
· Orally active – greatly suppressed liver deactivation
· Converts directly and efficiently to a hormone over 700% more potent than testosterone
· Does not aromatize, nor do any of its metabolic products - absolutely no estrogen formation
· A naturally occurring endogenous hormone in man
Naturally occurring and proven to convert
1-AD has been shown to be present as a urinary androgen metabolite in both healthy and diseased men. This compound can interact in-vivo with the enzyme 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase to form the active anabolic / androgenic hormone 17beta-hydroxy-5alpha-androst-1-en-3-one (1-testosterone). Evidence for this in-vivo conversion exists in the literature. 100mg of 1-AD given orally to men was found to result in considerable excretion of 1-testosterone in the urine.
Orally active
Androgenic steroids are normally not very active orally. Large amounts have to be taken orally to see biological effects. This is because the liver first pass causes a massive deactivation of the compounds, primarily through oxidation to17-keto steroids. Chemists long ago found that by adding an alkyl (methyl or ethyl) chemical group to the 17-carbon, this oxidation can be prevented. However, this alkyl derivatization also greatly increases the toxicity on the liver. Therefore the usage of such synthetically altered compounds (Methyl Testosterone, Anadrol, Winstrol) are not without substantial risk.
Luckily another structural modification was found to block the undesirable liver oxidative deactivation – and do so in a manner that does not lead to liver toxicity problems. Specifically, we are talking about the introduction of a double bond in the 1- position of the steroid molecule.
Most active steroids (4-androstenediol, testosterone, nandrolone) have bonds in the 4-position. If you take that double bond and "switch it" to the 1-position, then something very unique happens to the way your body metabolizes the steroid. The main route of deactivation, the 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (17beta-HSD) reaction, gets profoundly altered. The 17beta-HSD reaction is what is known as an equilibrium reaction (goes both ways), and for steroids with double bonds in the normal 4-position, this equilibrium reaction leans predominantly towards oxidative deactivation.
However, when the double bond is switched to the 1-position, the equilibrium is suddenly shifted in the other direction – towards activation of the steroid. What this means is that when you take 1-AD, a very large percentage of it will convert to "1-testosterone". Furthermore, the 1-tesosterone that is formed will be very stable, and will not quickly convert back to 1-AD.
The 1-position double bond was actually utilized in the design of Methenolone (Primobolan), which is well known by bodybuilders to be an orally active, liver safe anabolic steroid. Primobolan owes its oral activity in large part to the same structural characteristic that makes 1-AD orally active (compare the 1-AD structure to the Methenolone structure).
The amazing "1-testosterone"
All this comes together perfectly for us here. First we discover a new natural prohormone, 1-androstenedione. Secondly we discover that this prohormone is orally active. The third and fourth discoveries however, really make 1-AD shine superior.
1-AD does not convert to testosterone. Instead it converts to an isomer (a close chemical derivative) of testosterone. That isomer is known as 17beta-hydroxy-5alpha-androst-1-en-3-one, or "1-testosterone". Chemically speaking, it is simply an analog of testosterone that has the double bond in the 1-position instead of the 4-position. There are more than just chemical differences here though. 1-testosterone differs from regular testosterone, or "4-testosterone", in a couple of very amazing ways.
First of all, 1-testosterone’s anabolic activity is considerably greater than that of testosterone. In fact, it has been shown to be over 7 times as myotrophic (anabolic to muscle) than testosterone! That is not a typo - please check the reference if you do not believe me. Very, very few prescription anabolic agents even share such amazing power. I don’t think I have to say much more on this aspect.
No aromatization to estrogen
As if 1-testosterone being over 7 times as anabolic as testosterone was not enogh. 1-testosterone also DOES NOT AROMATIZE to estrogens. Being a 5alpha-reduced androgen (a DHT derivative) it simply cannot aromatize. The same goes for its precursor 1-AD; it too cannot aromatize to any extent whatsoever. This alone makes 1-AD superior to all other prohormones (diol or dione, nor or andro) because all other prohormones either aromatize themselves or convert to a hormone that aromatizes.
Bringing it all together
Lets put this all into perspective. When you take 1-AD orally, a high percentage of it gets past the liver. A high percentage of the 1-AD is then converted to its active hormone, 1-testosterone. This 1-testosterone is extremely potent and imparts strong anabolic effects on your muscle tissue. Furthermore, this 1-testosterone stays around for a while, and is not easily metabolized to inactive 17-keto steroids. And lastly, none of the 1-AD or 1-testosterone, or any other metabolic by product of the two can aromatize to estrogens.
After reading this, I don’t think you can argue that 1-AD is a huge cut above all the other prohormones that came before it. Even the prohormones that others have theorized about, but have yet to market, do not even come close to 1-AD. But what have I observed in the real world you may ask? I have found that 1-AD is extremely effective for strength gains, motivation in the gym, and muscle hardness. It is only moderately effective for weight gain however, and this is very likely due to the fact that water retention is minimal (no aromatization). Qualitatively speaking, its results are very similar to a strong androgen/anabolic like trenbolone.
I hope you found this interesting. Now that you know what 1-AD is and what it can do I hope that you will all give 1-AD a try.
ergopharm-1-ad-information
We need a double blind study on effectiveness of Mag10 vs. (a form of gear). Something like Test, Deca or Dball and two candidates that are of about the same size.
Frorider and DOT
SSME and DOT
Frackal and DOT
SSME and Frackal.
Frorider and Warik
You know...lil bitches!
Frorider and DOT
SSME and DOT
Frackal and DOT
SSME and Frackal.
Frorider and Warik
You know...lil bitches!
FarBeyondDriven
New member
damn at the huge fuckers that are natural, I knew I was headed the wrong way with that needle and vial.
pushing_fe
New member
5'11" 195lbs. Completely natural until March 1st.
T
The Shadow
Guest
pushing_fe said:
Athens, Ga here.
wizardnor
New member
Most will do a cycle. They get off and drop weight. Most will not do another cycle until their bodyweight gets to where it was b-4 the cycle ended. To me, that's the proper way to cycle. Perhaps a little off topic.
i gain weight on cycle & lose the weight off cycle what i am saying i don't gain at all i just lose weight
i gain weight on cycle & lose the weight off cycle what i am saying i don't gain at all i just lose weight
T
The Shadow
Guest
wizardnor said:
Exactly what I posted earlier. Works for me.
UNKNOWN SOLDIER
New member
havoc said:
I do not agree. I say a person has lost natural status if they took ANY performance inhancing stimuli made in a lab and that includes Creatine, Amino Acids, ECA, etc.
F
Frackal
Guest
For the natty's, sorry though I see the point of your arguments they are simply incorrect when referring to being 'natural.' You can call yourself "lifetime anabolic steroid free" but I personally fail to see the difference in supplementing synthetic testosterone in greater amounts than naturally occurs in the body and supplementing creatine in greater amounts then naturally occurs in the body...
Besides, while I have no doubts that havoc is terribly dedicated and a hard worker, if my feelings about his personal genetic makeup are accurate then it's likely that his ability to gain muscle naturally would rival my ability to do so on say a light dosage of test per week. So where does that leave us?
Besides, while I have no doubts that havoc is terribly dedicated and a hard worker, if my feelings about his personal genetic makeup are accurate then it's likely that his ability to gain muscle naturally would rival my ability to do so on say a light dosage of test per week. So where does that leave us?
F
Frackal
Guest
BTW, I know it is quite frustrating for the steroid free bodybuilder to watch a lazy steroid user who does not work very hard in the gym making bigger gains, the same sort of irritation one might have at someone who's genetics allow them to be ripped all year long or to gain muscle easily...
I'm a short pudgy kid...5'7 1/4" and 164lbs...
I love andro...lol
B True
I love andro...lol
B True
vinylgroover
New member
170 Natural.
No steroids, no pro-hormones, no creatine, no supplements.
I'd say that's pretty natural.
Weight has very little to do with anything in this sport. I'm not the biggest guy around, but at 5'7 170 pounds, 29 inch waist, tiny joints, good thickness and wicked separation makes me look far more impressive than most guys who outweigh me by 30 or 40 pounds
No steroids, no pro-hormones, no creatine, no supplements.
I'd say that's pretty natural.
Weight has very little to do with anything in this sport. I'm not the biggest guy around, but at 5'7 170 pounds, 29 inch waist, tiny joints, good thickness and wicked separation makes me look far more impressive than most guys who outweigh me by 30 or 40 pounds
Dr.RobertBanner
New member
Cornholio said:
I disagree, I think you can only get to a certain point naturally(your "natural" genetic limit), but can push far past that point w/ drugs. Certainly w/only juice you probably hit a "steriod ceiling" at some point, where no more steroids produce more size, so then you throw in GH and slin and possibly IGF-1 till you get to you next "ceiling". And in the future, inhibiting or shutting down myostatin will let guys go even further. So I think there are multiple "ceilngs," but of course genetics will always play a big role in the equation.
BTW this poll is probably skewed a bit, b/c I don't think many of the big guys from the anabolic board come here much. I'd post it there also and average your results.
Dr.RobertBanner
New member
mrbill said:
height is a big deal, but I think bf is a bigger deal. Maybe the poll should have asked about LBM only.
N
nclifter6feet6
Guest
250 plus natural right now but bulking but im tall
Kid Dynamite
New member
Around 200, natural but tall.
J
jeremys
Guest
235, natural
about 5'9 1/2
about 5'9 1/2
Cornholio said:
I agree with the theory....but sometimes the drugs tend to make up for the fact that the pros are dumber than a sack full of hammers when it comes to training or diet. Not all, but some would not place as high because the gear makes up for their ignorance. Also you have to deal with the LAZY factor...if you took their gear away many of them would not put in the effort to reach their genetic potential.
Silverback316
New member
When I was natural before gear I got to 238 lbs at 6'1'' and 20 years old. I than cut down to 218 lbs and did fina, test, and eq and shot up to 258 lbs very quickly. I can easily be 300 plus lbs and lean and I should be within a year I believe.
Natural for no other reason than I'm in the military and sweat I may not get away with it if I tried some gear.
However I got to about 230lbs plus natural and petty strong as well.(5'11") Since then I've been cutting down now I'm at 198lbs.
IMO gear shoule be perscribed to militarty members.
Now I don't GIVE A RATS ASS about being big these days though.
However I got to about 230lbs plus natural and petty strong as well.(5'11") Since then I've been cutting down now I'm at 198lbs.
IMO gear shoule be perscribed to militarty members.
Now I don't GIVE A RATS ASS about being big these days though.
thebabydoc
New member
Yeah right, tell it to Ozzie CansecoCornholio said:
Testosterone boy
New member
aurelius said:
That is SPECTACULAR!
All I'm saying though.
Lift Chief
New member
I'll say... stats like that are impressive to say the least- post a pic boss.
Bull Shit, even if you posted pics 5'11", 4% at 275lbs?
D
DUSTY
Guest
I'M 235 LBS. ALL NATURAL HERE.
C
Citruscide
Guest
240lbs, 6'1", 12-13% on the BF... I am natural as of today.
C-ditty LOL MUUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHA
C-ditty LOL MUUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHA
supersizeme
New member
You are as natural as a cloned sheep with attached metal arms incubated under a fast food heating lamp.
C
Citruscide
Guest
supersizeme said:
I'm more machine now than man... twisted and... Oh wait.. .that's what Obi Wan said about Vader.
C-ditty
sucker for supplements
New member
6'2 244 lbs
9% b/f
im 25, im vegetarian - never used pro horm's or juice - just protein, creatine, amino's and xenedrine
have some of that.
9% b/f
im 25, im vegetarian - never used pro horm's or juice - just protein, creatine, amino's and xenedrine
have some of that.
little chris
New member
look at the amount of people 140-180 natural (26)
look at the amount geared only 6
look at the amount geared only 6
The Whole F/N Show
New member
190lbs. 5'8
Natural 4 Life.
Natural 4 Life.
D
DUSTY
Guest
I WOULD SAY IF I WAS UN-NATURAL THAT I WOULD HAVE GAINS OF AROUND 280 MAYBE. THAT'S TOO BIG IN MY BOOK.
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
supersizeme said:
Great post.........too many people claim to be natural just because they could pass a test right here and now. I think the phrase 'natural' should be reserved for those that are lifetime clean.........anything else would be an insult to them.
As far as surpassing 'genetic potential' goes........isn't one fo the factors in determining how far you could go naturally the level of test in your body. So surely if you increase that level artificially you could surpass your 'genetic potential'.
little chris
New member
Weight doesn't mean shit its the quality of muscle the bodyfat percentage. If you look at the poll there's not a hugh difference in weight but I'm sure there's a difference in a appearence. I.E. a natural lifter may be 6'1 250lbs with 18% where as a juicer may be 6'1 225lbs 9%.
S
slobberknocker
Guest
It only goes up to 250...
S
slobberknocker
Guest
duritz said:
Ah. The bench press. Not even considered a real lift, in most training circles.
