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We had to kill our patients ...
- Thread starter velvett
- Start date
velvett said:
I agree
foreigngirl
New member
I think its really sad that we didnt rush to help our own people in NO so quick as we rushed to go help Iraqi's
AAP said:
They were some of the first to get rescued!
It was the gov't responsibility blah blah blah...
what the f**k ever
Mammoth2500
New member
I think the comparison is totally different. If you have worked in a hospital you would see alot.
There are paitients that will die without the machines, there's patients that cannot be moved cause they are in that bad of condition and will die if moved.
The doctors know who these people are and if they did classify the right people into the right category i think it was the right decision to kill them rather than leave them or attempt to move them when you don't have the resources, man power, equipment and time.
The mother stuck in the attic was uncertain what was going on outside the house, she knew the water was rising and that was it. She was under extreme stress as well but she did not have a medical condition that was fatal and her mother that did, even died in 1.5 days and she would not be anywhere near the condition on the others in the hospital.
That said. I support the doc's decision.
There are paitients that will die without the machines, there's patients that cannot be moved cause they are in that bad of condition and will die if moved.
The doctors know who these people are and if they did classify the right people into the right category i think it was the right decision to kill them rather than leave them or attempt to move them when you don't have the resources, man power, equipment and time.
The mother stuck in the attic was uncertain what was going on outside the house, she knew the water was rising and that was it. She was under extreme stress as well but she did not have a medical condition that was fatal and her mother that did, even died in 1.5 days and she would not be anywhere near the condition on the others in the hospital.
That said. I support the doc's decision.
Mammoth2500
New member
velvett said:
Ah yes. I was not looking at it that way. I was thinking more along the lines of the comaparison that the Mother was trying to choose death not to suffer and the staff was making the same decision except it was a educated one.
But in both cases i do believe they were thinking that they would be doing the right thing to cease the suffering just turned out different for them.
Docs do this shit all the time. ALL THE TIME. When they know someone is terminally ill, this is routine practice, hurricane or no. No one ever talks about it.
There is no comparison between a doctor (formally educated practitioner of medicine) kills patients who are going to die anyway in any attempted move and a woman with presumably no formal medical education attempting to convince her healthy young daughters to commit suicide.
I like tacos.
There is no comparison between a doctor (formally educated practitioner of medicine) kills patients who are going to die anyway in any attempted move and a woman with presumably no formal medical education attempting to convince her healthy young daughters to commit suicide.
I like tacos.
Mammoth2500 said:
Erroneous, illogical and just plain silly you are.
If I walked through the crappy part of town and machine gunned poor people, would it be Ok because I was "trying to end their suffering"?
Being poor sucks, right? So you know they're suffering. So a few slugs acorss the face and suffering stops. Too easy. How's that for compassion? I care. I hate to see people suffer. So out come the coppertops.
I don't think that would go over so well against any moral scrutiny.
You're missing the distinction between someone with formal medical education who can make the best decision as to when suffering should be ended, and some idiot who lacks the vision to understand that her kids will survive the storm.
There's no analogy here or equivalency.
This 'argument' breaks down when you recognize that not all people are equally qualified to make determinations on when ending a life is compassionate and when it is just plain idiotic and murderous.
velvett said:
No one knows what they would do in the situation that mother was in. She's sitting there with her dead mother, water rising, no food no water and her two daughters.
Though she doesn't know what is going on the outside. She doesn't know if people are actually checking attics... when will they come for them? Day's have passed... what do you do? You want to protect your kids, you want them never to suffer.
I can have some compassion for what she was going thru... Thank God above I have never been put in this situation and I pray I never have to go thru it.
Mr. dB said:
Did you actually read the other article?
Where would your head be after being trapped with you mother and 2 teenagers in your attic for three days at 110 degrees, watching your mother die with no food and quickly running out of water?
From my point of view the medical staff had an easier choice to make but both wanted to avoid those they care for to suffer before dying.
B
BrothaBill
Guest
Hippocratic Oath -- Classical Version
I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:
To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.
I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.
I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.
Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.
What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.
If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.
What they did is as clear cut as can be, they should be charged with murder, they abandoned their patients. Stay with them and die but never break their oath. Choosing to do so should warrant being stripped of their recognition of being a physician. Its too important an oath. Those physicians that feel the need to play God and administer a lethal dose have to face a decision that is unbearable, but by now, if what they said about the dying were true, a matter of hours, then the people would be dead by now and their feelings of pain have long since past. The moral-eithical dilemma that will follow from this must be made clear to every new physician taking this oath. That it is wrong, you cant make the hippocratic oath a slippery-slope. It ripples out and affects other arguments, legally and morally. Its just too important. The decision they made is almost understandable, if it were a nurse or administrator deciding that, but a physician should never be involved in that, if they do, then they should NOT discuss it. Its between them and the patient and to run it up the flagpole invites them to be punished and scrutiny. It does not work, the argument can and will be made by people that of all the people that they killed, can it be stated to a certainty that they would not be alive right now? Not to just a medical certainty, but to a higher certainty? No one can say that, no one can predict that the relief effort or when an evacuation team might have shown five minutes after killing a patient. Primum Non Nocere (above all, do no harm)
I have seen many patients die, Ive seen fuckups kill patients, but you still say in the end what is the fundamental truth that must be followed. No way can this be stated as the right thing to do. Just too fundamental an issue, if they believed in their oath then they knew what they were getting into and should have known when they stated it publicly like it appears they have, then they should be prepared to lose everything for breaking it. You should never take an oaf
I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:
To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.
I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.
I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.
Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.
What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.
If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.
What they did is as clear cut as can be, they should be charged with murder, they abandoned their patients. Stay with them and die but never break their oath. Choosing to do so should warrant being stripped of their recognition of being a physician. Its too important an oath. Those physicians that feel the need to play God and administer a lethal dose have to face a decision that is unbearable, but by now, if what they said about the dying were true, a matter of hours, then the people would be dead by now and their feelings of pain have long since past. The moral-eithical dilemma that will follow from this must be made clear to every new physician taking this oath. That it is wrong, you cant make the hippocratic oath a slippery-slope. It ripples out and affects other arguments, legally and morally. Its just too important. The decision they made is almost understandable, if it were a nurse or administrator deciding that, but a physician should never be involved in that, if they do, then they should NOT discuss it. Its between them and the patient and to run it up the flagpole invites them to be punished and scrutiny. It does not work, the argument can and will be made by people that of all the people that they killed, can it be stated to a certainty that they would not be alive right now? Not to just a medical certainty, but to a higher certainty? No one can say that, no one can predict that the relief effort or when an evacuation team might have shown five minutes after killing a patient. Primum Non Nocere (above all, do no harm)
I have seen many patients die, Ive seen fuckups kill patients, but you still say in the end what is the fundamental truth that must be followed. No way can this be stated as the right thing to do. Just too fundamental an issue, if they believed in their oath then they knew what they were getting into and should have known when they stated it publicly like it appears they have, then they should be prepared to lose everything for breaking it. You should never take an oaf
BrothaBilly said:
Thanks for posting garbage.
If every doc were bound strictly to this, there would be no docs.
velvett said:
Not all attempts at "compassion" are equal. No one would rightly say that machine gunning poor people is justified merely to "end their suffering", even though they are clearly suffering.
The idea that "good intentions" make something OK is just plain silly.
Equating the medical judgment of doctors that these patients would not survive the move with this idiot white trash mother suggesting her kids kill themselves is relativism at its most unrefined.
There is right and wrong. This idiot in the attic was just plain wrong. The wrongness of her actions was proven when rescuers showed up; the girls are healthy and have recovered fully. The patients "killed" by the doctors were never going to recover, assuming that they would have even survived the move.
I will have a taco now.
big4life said:
Murder requires intent, depraved indifference or the commission of another felony. It would be pretty hard to get this in as felony murder.
They'll get prison, and they deserve it.
B
BrothaBill
Guest
MattTheSkywalker said:
ummm, you are missing the point completely then if you think its garbage, but I dont have time to explain how it works to you
jackangel
New member
mts, i checked out this local taco joint called badlands taco.
i didn't eat a taco, but i had a big ol' burrito with lots of
stuff crammed in. it was pretty fucking good maing.
by the way, in that article (or elsewhere), is there any mention
of whether or not any of the dying patients had requested
that they be euthanized? it's an important detail, in my
excellent opinion.
and as for the mother (or the docs for that matter) ... true, there
is little doubt that these people were under great strain. i
couldn't honestly say what i would do in her situation. however,
that doesn't prevent me from determining for myself whether or
not she is right or wrong.
i didn't eat a taco, but i had a big ol' burrito with lots of
stuff crammed in. it was pretty fucking good maing.
by the way, in that article (or elsewhere), is there any mention
of whether or not any of the dying patients had requested
that they be euthanized? it's an important detail, in my
excellent opinion.
and as for the mother (or the docs for that matter) ... true, there
is little doubt that these people were under great strain. i
couldn't honestly say what i would do in her situation. however,
that doesn't prevent me from determining for myself whether or
not she is right or wrong.
BrothaBilly said:
There's no hope for Matt and there's no use debating with someone that speaks to you like "I can't hear what you're saying because everything you say is wrong everything I say is right NANANANANANANAN I can't hear you."
One day Matt - you will get get it.
No amount of book knowledge or success or money will teach you what you don't know about life.
velvett said:There's no hope for Matt and there's no use debating with someone that speaks to you like "I can't hear what you're saying because everything you say is wrong everything I say is right NANANANANANANAN I can't hear you."
One day Matt - you will get get it.
No amount of book knowledge or success or money will teach you what you don't know about life.
I do hear you...I listen, then I respond to the points you've made. In fact, I addressed yours concisely and directly, whereas you reworded the same opinion multiple times. I'm unmoved, sorry, nothing personal. It's just a disagreement, these happen all the time.
The idea that other people will one day evolve to "get it" (ie see the world as another does) is just plain silly. Equally silly is caring if other people "get it" or not.
Now, on to that taco.
The docs were screwed in the beginning:
They couldn't move the patients (too dangerous)
So it was either let them die or help them die
So who's responsible of this tragic accident?
Those who didn't take the hurricane alert seriously enough and thought evacuation was just optional
They couldn't move the patients (too dangerous)
So it was either let them die or help them die
So who's responsible of this tragic accident?
Those who didn't take the hurricane alert seriously enough and thought evacuation was just optional
MattTheSkywalker said:
Yes, Matt you're absolutely right, that's a perfect explanation as why I have been disagreeing with you for what, 4 years now.
So by your own theory - you too are a very silly man to try and discard other's opinions as false and yours as well - Emperor like.
Don't choke on your taco shell, you may not have a compassionate soul around to help you out.
*wink, wink*
And for the record getting it isn't about seeing the world as another does, it's accepting that other's are not like you.
In a side note to this story, it seems that FEMA diverted diesel fuel headed to hospitals in the area for it's own use. Without diesel fuel, their generators were useless.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/08/katrina.heroes/
Here's the first couple paragraphs from the story.
(CNN) -- Conditions in New Orleans Methodist Hospital deteriorated quickly as Hurricane Katrina roared through the area.
Part of the hospital's roof blew off. Power was lost. Snakes swam in the water that flooded some hallways. And the hospital's diesel fuel was commandeered by FEMA.
"We lost our generator within 24 hours. We could not get fuel. We had to hand-bag ventilate patients," Dr. Albert Barracas said. In the midst of this chaos, the hospital's doctors worked around the clock, putting their patients' health above their own.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/08/katrina.heroes/
Here's the first couple paragraphs from the story.
(CNN) -- Conditions in New Orleans Methodist Hospital deteriorated quickly as Hurricane Katrina roared through the area.
Part of the hospital's roof blew off. Power was lost. Snakes swam in the water that flooded some hallways. And the hospital's diesel fuel was commandeered by FEMA.
"We lost our generator within 24 hours. We could not get fuel. We had to hand-bag ventilate patients," Dr. Albert Barracas said. In the midst of this chaos, the hospital's doctors worked around the clock, putting their patients' health above their own.
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