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Volume training

M

mphowells

New member
I've tried quite a few routines in the past few years and am currently on DC training (to be honest not building much muscle). i'd now like to go over to the opposite end of the spectrum and do some volume training.

while I'm not interested in doing rediculous amounts of sets I was thinking about something along the lines of:

3 exercises per muscle group
4 sets per exercise
minimum of 10 reps per set (but aiming for 15)
increasing weight each set.

Any feedback and/or links to some training in roughly the same area of volume would be much appreciated.

Oh yeah, it's muscle I'm trying to gain.
 
your problem isnt in training, DC training is great for puttin on muscle, the problem is your diet. And why would you think that adding much more volume would help add muscle? With your current diet, youre only going to be burning more calories than you would on DC. Post up your diet, and we can help you from there...
 
ZGzaZ said:
your problem isnt in training, DC training is great for puttin on muscle, the problem is your diet. And why would you think that adding much more volume would help add muscle? With your current diet, youre only going to be burning more calories than you would on DC. Post up your diet, and we can help you from there...
Click to expand...
yep diet would be one obvious issue plus are you sure that you were really going as hard at it as DC's trainees (the guys who have him as their PT)?

another volume based approach to gaining muscle is german volume training:
http://www.strengthcats.com/CP-GVT.html
this is really a very taxing method and you need to make sure you get your diet correct.
 
ZGzaZ said:
your problem isnt in training, DC training is great for puttin on muscle, the problem is your diet. And why would you think that adding much more volume would help add muscle? With your current diet, youre only going to be burning more calories than you would on DC. Post up your diet, and we can help you from there...
Click to expand...


Actually this is incorrect. DC training is very limited in it's scope and unless you are one of the few that responds to it, most people are just spinning their wheels. Even the advocates of DC and other types of HI methods - yates, mentzer, dugall, henry, still got big the ol fashion way with volume training. It wasn't until Dorian was already a professional (in his own words) that he started with the HI principals of workouts. Up until that point, he built his foundation like anyone else.

DC training is a nice way to deviate from the norm and give a shock to your muscles, but it is not standard or best method at all by any means. I have followed it 3 times already. Twice by the exact methods that Dante espouses and then the last time by following the principals, but with my own fingerprint on the training. I made more gains than the first two time then.
 
AAP said:
Actually this is incorrect. DC training is very limited in it's scope and unless you are one of the few that responds to it, most people are just spinning their wheels. Even the advocates of DC and other types of HI methods - yates, mentzer, dugall, henry, still got big the ol fashion way with volume training. It wasn't until Dorian was already a professional (in his own words) that he started with the HI principals of workouts. Up until that point, he built his foundation like anyone else.

DC training is a nice way to deviate from the norm and give a shock to your muscles, but it is not standard or best method at all by any means. I have followed it 3 times already. Twice by the exact methods that Dante espouses and then the last time by following the principals, but with my own fingerprint on the training. I made more gains than the first two time then.
Click to expand...

I agree. There is just no way around good, old fashioned, long, boring volume workouts.....volume increases tonnage and stress and stimulus. I think higher intensity periods for peaking and unloading some fatigue can be good and can be a welcome change after periods of high volume....but for most people, the body thrives on being pounded with high volume.

In strength training, volume is the only way to go unless you're unloading....a nice side effect of high volume strength training is lots of muscle if you're eating correctly. You can unload and peak strength than come back to volume with even higher poundages, which equals more work, which equals more growth then.

For the original poster.....I am not talking volume in terms of doing lat pulldowns with 37 different attachments, but rather high quality lifts, and lots of sets, and progressive increases in either weight or sets/reps.
 
Dante regularly takes tapped out trainees with top-line genetics and adds 20-30+lbs of muscle onto them. It obviously works as a trip to http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=9478 would show...

the problem is that if dante is not personally training you then what's being done is not 'dc' training, and for pretty much everyone who decides to try it, it's a completely inappropriate way to train.
 
Most trainees do not have top line genetics as you put it. Ruling that factor out, how many average trainees has he turned into superb specimens? The 20-30 pounds he adds to them from excessive calorie intake is NOT pure muscle.

I followed the route exactly as he lined it out. To the letter the first two times. And still had better results from my variation from it.
 
nothing is going to have dramatic results for someone with average potential, there's no training system that'll have them looking like arnie. But for guys like DH, harris etc DC added size onto them when they were already at their limit.

my point about it being inappropriate was aimed at the thread starter, unless he was 240+ lean with 5+ years hard training under his belt before he decided to try his 'DC training'
 
AAP said:
Actually this is incorrect. DC training is very limited in it's scope and unless you are one of the few that responds to it, most people are just spinning their wheels. Even the advocates of DC and other types of HI methods - yates, mentzer, dugall, henry, still got big the ol fashion way with volume training. It wasn't until Dorian was already a professional (in his own words) that he started with the HI principals of workouts. Up until that point, he built his foundation like anyone else.

DC training is a nice way to deviate from the norm and give a shock to your muscles, but it is not standard or best method at all by any means. I have followed it 3 times already. Twice by the exact methods that Dante espouses and then the last time by following the principals, but with my own fingerprint on the training. I made more gains than the first two time then.
Click to expand...

regardless of training, if youre not gaining weight.. and trying to.... you're not eating enough. So if someone is not gaining on any program, they're not eating enough. If they were only gaining fat and no muscle, this would be a different story.

Therefore, doing a higher volume workout, is going to lead to the same result, maybe with an increase in fat loss due to the diet not being geared to gain.
 
thanks for the feedback guys, a fair few things to think about there.

zgzaz, i couldn't agree more and eating has always been my problem. I am slowly gaining weight but I'm pretty sure a lor if fat as I have gone up to 14%BF (6ft - 87Kg). Without going into too much detail I aim for 3000 cals a day, 300grams of protein, under 90grams of fat, rest is carbs. i wouldn't say it was ridiculously clean but it mostly revolves around tuna, beef, chicken, egg whites and protein shakes.

So what some of you are saying is that DC Training is not really worth it unless you have already built a solid foundation and are already pretty stacked? This I have come to realise hence me wanting to move the other end of the scale and do volume training. i also came to the decision because most of the body building DVDs I see have people doing high volumes.

with this in mind i i could get some criteque on the rough traing structure I posted it would be much appreciated.

Thanks
 
3 exercises per muscle group
4 sets per exercise
minimum of 10 reps per set (but aiming for 15)
increasing weight each set.
Click to expand...

So, bodypart training, 4x12-15, pyramiding each set? I don't like it. IMHO, you'd be better off dropping the pyramids. Instead, warm up properly, then get into a few heavy work sets. Work in the 5-8 range if you want. Knock out 3-6 sets in the 5-8 range, then back off the weight and bang out 2-3 sets of 12-15 reps w/ shorter rests between sets. Frankly, if you've done that, there's not much left for your 2d or 3d exercise for the "bodypart" you're training.

You get some tension and max motor unit recruitment w/ the heavy sets, and then generate some fatigue and get the metabolic stuff going w/ your higher rep backoff sets. It's a tried and true method from way back. Start heavy, do some hard work, then finish w/ some burnouts.

Also, read the training vault sticky. Visit Madcow's geocities cite and at least read his training primer. Long story short, you might start thinking about training movements rather than bodyparts. But to each his own, I guess.
 
Protobuilder said:
So, bodypart training, 4x12-15, pyramiding each set? I don't like it. IMHO, you'd be better off dropping the pyramids. Instead, warm up properly, then get into a few heavy work sets. Work in the 5-8 range if you want. Knock out 3-6 sets in the 5-8 range, then back off the weight and bang out 2-3 sets of 12-15 reps w/ shorter rests between sets. Frankly, if you've done that, there's not much left for your 2d or 3d exercise for the "bodypart" you're training.

You get some tension and max motor unit recruitment w/ the heavy sets, and then generate some fatigue and get the metabolic stuff going w/ your higher rep backoff sets. It's a tried and true method from way back. Start heavy, do some hard work, then finish w/ some burnouts.

Also, read the training vault sticky. Visit Madcow's geocities cite and at least read his training primer. Long story short, you might start thinking about training movements rather than bodyparts. But to each his own, I guess.
Click to expand...

Thnaks for the info. Is the routine above what you do then?

I'll have a look for madcow's site. To be gonest i didn't know he had one, I have read and done the 5x5 but just wanted to try something different. End of the day, if i haven't been growing in the past then trying and failing at volume training isn't going to hurt anymore than the other stuff.
 
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=484815

Go to the above and get a program off Madcows site. If you want to grow you can, even on a cutting diet. I went from 245 to 208 (now back up to 230 but O what a difference!) doing the 5x5 a couple times and in that time added 100lbs to my squat, almost 200lbs to my deadlift, and 80+ to my bench. My body comp totally changed and I feel strong as shit. Maybe you aren't really pushing your slef properly - not to flame but if you aren't growing on this plan you are not pushing your self.
 
al420 said:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=484815

Go to the above and get a program off Madcows site. If you want to grow you can, even on a cutting diet. I went from 245 to 208 (now back up to 230 but O what a difference!) doing the 5x5 a couple times and in that time added 100lbs to my squat, almost 200lbs to my deadlift, and 80+ to my bench. My body comp totally changed and I feel strong as shit. Maybe you aren't really pushing your slef properly - not to flame but if you aren't growing on this plan you are not pushing your self.
Click to expand...


No it's ok I see what you're saying but is it not true that different people react differently to different types of training? Ie, volume traing could be good for one but for someone else they do not grow off of volume training?

While I will admit that my diet may not have been totally sorted in terms of calorie intake I know that my effort is always spot on.
 
i used high volume training before i started the 5x5 and in a total of 5 1/2 months ive put on 18 solid pounds of muscle... 170-->188, and now that im on the 5x5 for the past 5 weeks (when i started) my weight gain since has been 12 pounds of that 18... so what im trying to say is that compared... strenght training is having me more gains than volumeT...

but contradicting to that is i've build my body off of high volume work during football in highschool...moderate work compared to 5x5s' workload.
 
mphowells said:
is it not true that different people react differently to different types of training?
Click to expand...

I think that's true, but there are also some tried and true principles that have worked for many people. As long as you're doing something that's not totally off the wall, chances are it'll work, for awhile. And when it stops working, will you know what to do next? One positive thing going for the 5x5 is that if you've done it right, you'll learn your body very well and you'll learn how to make adjustments to keep progress going. You can learn off of any system, but for some reason, many many people seem to miss the big picture when they go into volume training b/c they correlate it w/ pure "BB'ing" training that they see in Flex.

my effort is always spot on.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by this? Not saying it's you, but many people work really hard, and kill themselves each and every day in the gym . . . but don't grow very much. Subjective effort doesn't guarantee anything. On the flip side though, some very talented coaches have stated that they'd rather have a kid who works hard b/c if you work hard, you can make just about any non-stupid program work. LoL
 
higher volume, lower rest periods and more work will obviously get you more 'swole', the problem is that most people cannot progress in weight lifted while on a volume routine.

some people can thrive on volume and keep getting stronger, personally I cannot so I need to alternate periods of higher volume with lower volume pure strength training. And ultimately, unless you are a genetic freak you will need to be lifting some heavy weight for those volume training sessions if you expect to get bigger. Doing lots of sets with 135lbs is going to leave you looking like Richard Simmons.. doing lots of sets with 500lbs is going to leave you looking like Ronnie
 
the problem with DC is there's no balance of intensity/volume.. its all out total annihilation and then some, and post failure training again is very tough for average/hardgainers to recover from.

If you go on a volume phase be sure to throttle back on the intensity and dont take any sets to failure.
 
The main problem with DC training, or volume training, or 5x5, or any other training program out there is that not a single one of them is going to be suited for your entire body. People don't realize this when trying different programs and thus are unhappy for the most part.

You don't find which kind of training works best for you. You find which works best for your muscles and the whatever goals you have in mind. My triceps were a lagging part for years. Until I started doing 15-25 sets per workout for them. Just blood pushing pumping sets. Then they took off growing. Now I only do 6-7 sets for chest and it still grows. You would think with chest being a larger muscle, you would need to hit it with more sets than a small on like triceps. But in my case it is the opposite. Same way with hamstrings. I do more sets for them than I do for quads.

You might need DC style training for your chest. Or you may need volume training for back (typically most do because going the standard heavy way only ensures you never experience a true muscle contraction with low reps). You may need 5x5 for your shoulders. You just don't know until you forget training methods and simply train your muscles like the individuals that they are.
 
^^ That also fits in nicely w/ the addage: everything works, nothing works forever.

As I see it, successful training is more an ebb and flow thing, where you do certain things that work at any given point in time . . . and when they stop working, you adjust and keep going. That's the problem w/ doing someone else's "routine." It was something that worked for them, for a particular point in their lifting career . . . that's no guarantee that it's appropriate for you or will work best for you right now.
 
Guys thats some quality feedback, thanks very much, given me plenty to think about. I'm currently looking at a write on German Volume Training so may give it a go!

Protobuilder what i meant by my effort being spot on was that I try to follow the program by the book. but as you rightfully say later on, that can be the problem with doing someone elses routine.

I guess at the end of the day it's trail and error while still trying to follow the principles of how muscle is built.

Thanks again, I hope to start a journal soon.
 
in my eyes... form is number 1.
any program can work,
any exercise works, and works well... if you have correct form--check (morons at the gym)

a bundle of exercises, i.e. a program, will work if you have proper form...
as said so many times by so many members here
form+heavy=growth
 
mphowells, if your going to run a GVT, my advice is to use this sparingly - don't use it too often. make sure you choose light enough weights - you'll be surprised how heavy it starts to feel. keep a watch on hand to make sure you aren't resting too long between sets later on. and EAT!
 
Protobuilder said:
I'd encourage you to go read through all the stuff on Madcow's website. It's linked in the training vault sticky.
Click to expand...

Thanks I read through it nearer the start of the year (although the website looks a lot better now) and have done it once. Just fancy doing something different. i know that elite members love the 5x5 and that's great but I just want to try something different to stop me getting bored.
 
Oh I don't care if you do the 5x5 as written on his cite or not. I'm more concerned that you understand the bigger picture rather than surfing the net just looking for "routines." You mentioned some S.A.I.S. program or something and after the discussion in this thread, I thought maybe you'd missed the bigger picture. No worries if you're on track.
 
Protobuilder said:
Oh I don't care if you do the 5x5 as written on his cite or not. I'm more concerned that you understand the bigger picture rather than surfing the net just looking for "routines." You mentioned some S.A.I.S. program or something and after the discussion in this thread, I thought maybe you'd missed the bigger picture. No worries if you're on track.
Click to expand...

Oh no sorry man I dare say you're right and I am missing the bigger picture. I am very much one of those who will just follow a program to the letter and not really try to look at why tyhe program is structured in a certain way.....much to my detriment I dare say :rolleyes:

(I'd found that SAIS on another site but didn't want to post the link cos it'll advertise another forum.)
 
if posting SAIS is useful to someone browsing this forum, i personally don't see why you shouldn't post up. we do after all see links to other forums ocassionally - even bb.com lol (more for a good laugh but once in a while a serious post too!)
 
Adaptation to imposed stress is what ANY non-idiotic program will cause.....that SAIS will work so long as you're adding weight to the bar weekly, so will anything that is set up to foster increases in bench presses, squats, rowing movements, etc etc and advises the trainee to eat.

Don't so much look for a 'program'....you'll be in an endless cycle of always 'starting over'.....learn the basic principles of what works and what is a non-moronic way to train and develop something that allows you ro continually progress long-term, changes at times are fine as long as you keep getting better and don't lose your focus.....personally if a classic '5x5' works, I think it is foolish to 'switch it up'.....but as long as your progress doesn't take a detour, then just do what works, and that is be consistent, add weight to the bar, and eat.
 
Oh shit! Thanks to BiggT, the SAIS program finally registered with me. I jsut balked at another "pre-ordained" routine. Specific adaptation to stress. LMFAO! ! Someone better not be marketing that. That's what LIFE is. LoL Adapting to stress. That's hilarious.

Each and every goddamn program under the sun does the same damn thing: apply stress in some fashion and "hope" you adapt to it without dying. LoL That's some funny shit.

Carry on.
 
Protobuilder said:
Oh shit! Thanks to BiggT, the SAIS program finally registered with me. I jsut balked at another "pre-ordained" routine. Specific adaptation to stress. LMFAO! ! Someone better not be marketing that. That's what LIFE is. LoL Adapting to stress. That's hilarious.

Each and every goddamn program under the sun does the same damn thing: apply stress in some fashion and "hope" you adapt to it without dying. LoL That's some funny shit.

Carry on.
Click to expand...

lol
 
Protobuilder said:
Each and every goddamn program under the sun does the same damn thing: apply stress in some fashion and "hope" you adapt to it without dying. LoL That's some funny shit.
Click to expand...

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

True in the weightroom as well as life.

:)
 
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