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Unstick my squat please

majutsu

Well-known member
Alright, stuck at 405. Wide stance. Keep my arch well. I get stuck right out of the hole. I used to bend forward at the bottom, making people think my abs or low back was weak. But my dead (which is a heavy back style) is easy 405, with probably 500 in there. I realized today that I was bending forward to compensate for my weak legs. Today I could easily keep that back and arch, but I was just glued in the hole. Went to 425 and just glued at the bottom. Then went down to 365 and did good explosive reps.

I believe my problem is weak glutes and hams (isn't that what you use to come out of the hole?).

I think good mornings would help. I did pull-throughs and those felt good. I don't have access to a GHR.

I was doing stiff legged deads, but realized today that is not really helping me at all.

What accessories can I do to improve my squat? I probably want to continue to do ME squats, because I still benefit from form improvements, etc, and am not advanced enough at squatting to have good carry over from box squats, etc. So I don't think I am looking for a new ME movement yet (except maybe good mornings), just new, more effective accessory movements.

This is my weakest movement as my bench is about the same as my squat, and my dead is 100lbs heavier than either. My squat needs help!

Based on my description, have I diagnosed my weaknesses correctly? I can't take video because I don't have the equipment, although I may get it soon. I just have computer and still digital cam. But many pl's have watched my form, including today at 315, and said it's fine. I think it's just some key muscle weaknesses.
 
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do wide stance squats on your de day. do more of a regular or narrow stance movement on your me day. ghr's are invaluable, as are reverse hypers, good morning, back raises, and pull throughs. do you use bands for de day? they may help your explosiveness out of the hole also
 
Box squats..its never too early to start box squatting..
make sure you sit and pause on the box then come up..it doesnt have to be a long pause but dont touch and go..sit relax the hip flexors, tighten abs and come up..

i think doing reg free squats might be too much..Im assuming your doing DE squats?

Personally i would stop squatting on ME day and do more GM's using a close stance, wide stance, pin suspended..some deadlift variations, close stance low box squats..

As far as a ssistance if you dont do GM's as an ME dont be afraid to do them in te 5-10 rep range as assist, pull-thrus are awesome, partial dead for te posterior..dont overlook the hammies..im sure your gym has a hammer strength seated leg curl, back raises, heavy ab work
 
majutsu said:
Alright, stuck at 405. Wide stance. Keep my arch well. I get stuck right out of the hole. I used to bend forward at the bottom, making people think my abs or low back was weak. But my dead (which is a heavy back style) is easy 405, with probably 500 in there. I realized today that I was bending forward to compensate for my weak legs. Today I could easily keep that back and arch, but I was just glued in the hole. Went to 425 and just glued at the bottom. Then went down to 365 and did good explosive reps.

I believe my problem is weak glutes and hams (isn't that what you use to come out of the hole?).

I think good mornings would help. I did pull-throughs and those felt good. I don't have access to a GHR.

I was doing stiff legged deads, but realized today that is not really helping me at all.

What accessories can I do to improve my squat? I probably want to continue to do ME squats, because I still benefit from form improvements, etc, and am not advanced enough at squatting to have good carry over from box squats, etc. So I don't think I am looking for a new ME movement yet (except maybe good mornings), just new, more effective accessory movements.

This is my weakest movement as my bench is about the same as my squat, and my dead is 100lbs heavier than either. My squat needs help!

Based on my description, have I diagnosed my weaknesses correctly? I can't take video because I don't have the equipment, although I may get it soon. I just have computer and still digital cam. But many pl's have watched my form, including today at 315, and said it's fine. I think it's just some key muscle weaknesses.

always the first thing to look at when you hit a sticking point is your form, are you sitting back far enough, and pushing your knees out enough to fully activate the stretch reflex? if you are convinced your form is dead on, then think about some exercises to bring up your weakness, glute ham raises, goodmornings, anything to bring up you hamstrings, but i would def throw in some pause squats if i was slow, weak out of the hole. maybe 3 sets of 3-5, if your a westsider, i would put them in as an assistance on me day, after your core me exercise for a few weeks.
 
i don't have access to a GHR or a reverse hyper either, so i have to use gms and lots of stiff legged exercises and hope that the strech will get me some strength in the hamstrings

what i always asked myself is: those leg curl machines for hamstrings, are they worth the effort?
 
If you are having trouble with bending over too far, as I did, try widening your grip and get your chest up. I know this sounds sorta weird, but when I was up at Westside, they kept yelling at me to keep my chest up, the easiest way for me to do it was to widen my grip. You'll see most pro squatters, not all, put their hands all the way out to the sleeves, helps them keep their elbows down and chest up. You also may have the bar riding too low on your back.

That being said, try pause squats, although I think you should work mostly at developing your posterior chain. Things that have worked for me, Zercher Squats, Romanian Deadlifts, ultra-wide sumo deads (feet to the plates but don't drop them on your feet like I have) ultra-wide speed squats off of the box.

Also, it seems that your body may not be used to the weight for that movement. Yeah, you can bench and dead a lot, but if the weigth feels heavy on a squat, pinch your traps together really tight and create a good groove for the bar to sit in. I doubt your lower back is that weak due to you being able to dead as much, it may be weak hips. I've been using a 45 degree raise with barbells lately, due to training at a chain gym, it's been working though.

Also, train the shit out of your hamstrings, you don't have to have tree trunk legs to squat a ton, the chicks do dig it though :)

Can ya dig it?
 
the koala said:
i don't have access to a GHR or a reverse hyper either, so i have to use gms and lots of stiff legged exercises and hope that the strech will get me some strength in the hamstrings

what i always asked myself is: those leg curl machines for hamstrings, are they worth the effort?

are leg curl machines better than a GHR, NO...but if you odnt have one that doesnt mean you should neglect your hams..

stiff legged deads are fine but you have to remember CNS overload..stiff deads vs a GHR there is no comparison..you can pretty muc do ghr everyday but try doing stif legged deads everyday..

my point is there is nothing wrong with doing stiff legged deads but just go easy and dont be afraid to use the ham curl machines
 
Everyone is helpful! Here are the main points sticking out to me . . .

I really also think I should narrow it up a bit on ME day, I've been wanting to do this. I've been almost unnaturally wide, and it's hard to recruit everything smoothly.

I have widened out my grip a little, that has helped me keep me chest up, as well as pushing out with my abs has helped.

Everyone and their mother thinks I need good mornings, and they're probably right. I really wanted to keep ME squats because I just don't feel a good squat groove yet. But I am really, really interested in treating good mornings as an assistance exercise. That idea really appeals to me.

My hammies are nice and sore today with the pull throughs. I think I'm going to drop stiff legged deads for now and go with pull throughs.

You really think seated leg curls will help? That suprises me, but that would make a good assistance movement to add.

I like the idea of treating pause squats as an assistance movement. I sort of did pause squats at 315 yesterday after my ME, that's not an appropriate DE weight for me, so I think I will treat it like an assistance movement.

That would mean wide on DE day, narrower to natural on ME day. Then gms, pullthroughs, pause squat and seated leg curls assistance.

I think I'm going to take 2 days off, restructure some things, and start with ME or DE squats on saturday while my heart's into it. Even though I loosely follow westside, I've been adding a 5th day of ME deads with some rows (assistance bench) just to keep building my deads. I know this is kinda wrong to dead and squat the same week, but I was enjoying it. Maybe it's time I stop that and focus on my weaknesses instead of partying with my strengths.

Feel free to add more ideas. I keep learning. K to everyone, but I need to recharge first :)
 
make sure you get on the box on DE day :)

the other thing youll find out is that if you ask 5 guys that train WSB youll most likely get 5 different answers..i think thats why people get cnfused and bogged down with trying to put together a WSB routine..But youll find that the basics are all the same..

you can absolutely strengthen your hams with seated leg curls..yes i a GHR is superior but you make do with what you have..sometimes ill do negatives with the leg curls and such..i also love pull-thrus which can be done with different stances to hit different muscles (stiff legged narrow stance or wide etc)

This article simplifies things but by no means is this everything..youll learn to tweak things and add what you need and structure it more towards your goals
http://www.elitefitnesssystems.com/documents/bobyoungs-sampleworkout.htm
 
Two exercises for squat assistance movements that have helped me a ton are blue band leg curls and pull throughs.

A guy from further north in Ohio, that I secretly steal training ideas from because he's a hell of a lifter and also a 181/198 pounder, started doing band pull throughs. What you might find is the only place to do pull throughs in your gym, if it's anything like mine, are the cable cross-overs that have hardly enough weight. That's also usually where all the mulletts like to mingle. You can get a helluva lot better motion and they will kick your ass.

On the band leg curls, have someone sit on the bench or help hold it back for you. Be careful not to let too much pressure off of your feet, otherwise you'll go to sit on the bench and that friggin band will yank your ass to the floor.

Just my two more cents that may make no sense :)
 
Chambewy20 said:
What you might find is the only place to do pull throughs in your gym, if it's anything like mine, are the cable cross-overs that have hardly enough weight. That's also usually where all the mulletts like to mingle.

i pin plates to the stack to get it up to where i want..i love he look on peoples faces when you walk it out and stretch across to the other side so they are unable to do those awesome chest building cable crosses lol..every guy i see do those has such a great chest..im gonna hit them up as an ME move next bench day

:chomp:
 
That's a great link. Very helpful. I have redesigned my program. I'm dropping deads for a while. Below is a Louie article that explains conjugate training clearly and simply. This article complimented yours well.

I am pictured with one of the greatest deadlifters of all time: Vince Anello and Jim Cash. Jim deadlifted 837 at 220, and Vince deadlifted 821 at 198.
I saw Vince for the first time in 1966 , when he pulled 525 at 165. I knew then he was destined for deadlifting greatness. I recall asking Vince what made his deadlift go up. His reply was that anything made his deadlift go up. At the time, I was confused by his answer. I later realized what he said was not confusing, but my lack of training knowledge had kept me in the dark. I read Bill Starr's article about raising your deadlift without deadlifting. Was this what Vince was telling me? Was this the conjugate method? The answer is yes to both.
At Westside, the tenth best deadlift by coefficient is 710 at 198. We also have five lifters who have pulled 800 or more. Among the women, Doris Simmons pulled 349 at 105, Amy Weisburger 450 at 123, and Mariah Ligget 485 at 132 while training at Westside. These lifts were accomplished by deadlifting, at the most, one time every 4 weeks and more usually once every 8-10 weeks.
Our training is comprised of squatting or arched-back good mornings one week and bent-over good mornings the next week. You must bend over because the back has flexion. We use a wide assortment of cambered bars to change the leverage.
There are many ways to train. My objective is to teach you to train yourself. You must do what works best, not what you like best. Don't forget that.
Jerry Obradovic pulled 804 at 275 by doing lots of ab work, high reps on the Reverse Hyper, and 3-5 reps on a very low box, 4-6 inches below parallel, with a Safety Squat bar. He also did high reps, 6-8, in the bent-over good morning with a Buffalo Bar. He would test his deadlift once a month by pulling a rack pull with the plates 2-4 inches off the floor. He also did lat work of all kinds three times a week. All this netted him an 804 deadlift and a 644 bench to go with it.
Chuck Vogelpohl has a 793 deadlift at 242, and a 771 deadlift and 551 bench at 220. First of all, he trains 10-14 times a week. He always does abs in these extra workouts, and five workouts involve lat work. After speed squats on Friday, he will do 6-10 singles in the deadlift with 500 pounds, either sumo, conventional, or standing on a 1-4 inch box. They are very explosive.
On Monday, max effort day at Westside, Chuck works up to a max good morning or box squat with a variety of boxes. He will use a box deadlift or rack deadlift only as a test of his progress, not to build the lift. Chuck does a lot of work on the Reverse Hyper. He always works low back and hamstrings before lats.
John "Chester" Stafford, who deadlifts 800 and totals 2280, trains much like Chuck, maxing out for a single on a box squat or good morning. The exercises for the squat or good morning. The exercises for the squat are the same for the deadlift. John does a lot of standing abs and leg raises. He will only do a box or rack deadlift to test his deadlift, not to build it.
I do a lot of pulling of weight sleds to build my deadlift. I train lats and upper back about 5 times a week, mostly during short, 20-30 minute, extra workouts. I do about 10-14 workouts a week. Here are some examples: glute/ham raises and abs; reverse hypers, lats, and abs; sled pulling, lats, and abs; band only good mornings, hamstring work, and abs. I also feel the box squatting with or without bands will increase your deadlift fast. I deadlift with bands or chains to a fast single, then do low back. On max effort day, I prefer to do a max single on a low box or a triple in the conventional good morning or a single in the concentric style good morning. Having mad a top 10 deadlift in three weight classes has served me well.
The late Matt Dimel hit not only a 1010 squat but also an 821 deadlift. While he did all of the above, he would also work up to 600 for a single with the plates 2 inches off the floor. Then he would place an 1 inch mat under his feet and do a second single. More and more mats were added until the bar was touching the top of his feet. These were done with about 1 minute rest between sets. He also did a lot of lat work and work on the Reverse Hyper at least 4 times a week. Matt had very strong abs, which enabled him to do a sit-up with 115 pounds on an Olympic bar held behind his head while his legs were straight out on the floor.
Jeff Chorpenning had a 750 deadlift at 198. He did a lot of heavy abs and low back on the Reverse Hyper. He used a wide sumo style, and very wide box squatting helped a great deal. He would max out on a low box squat and, of course, do an assortment of good mornings.
What do these workouts have in common? These lifters always max out on some box squat level, mostly very low, or a good morning. They only use the deadlift to test their progress, not to build the deadlift. Lots of small extra workouts for abs, hamstrings, and lower or upper back are done. Any combination will work. Heavy sled pulling can take the place of max effort work 1 out of every 4 workouts.
If these men and women have bad form, they will do special work to correct it, i.e., the conjugate method. The top pullers here can deadlift almost the same with any deadlift style. If not, this shows a weakness in some muscle groups.
Because the deadlift is done last at a meet, when you're tired, we do a box squat or good morning first before trying a max box or rack pull. This keeps you honest. One must be in good shape to deadlift well in a meet. That's where all the extra workouts pay off. If you deadlift all the time, it will kill you in the long run, mentally and physically. Don't let this happen to you.
Everyone at Westside does these workouts at one time or another. It does not matter what sequence or rotation you use. Change the core lift each week and the special exercises whenever you feel it is necessary.
Remember what Vince said? I think this is what he had in mind.
 
Chambewy20 said:
Also, train the shit out of your hamstrings, you don't have to have tree trunk legs to squat a ton, the chicks do dig it though :)

Can ya dig it?

Yes, I can dig it. :)

I think i also need to work on my hip strength and form. We took weight last night on Squat and on my last try - i was stuck at the bottom. I think it is a combination of hip/ham strength, and not sitting back enough or pushing out my knees (spreading the floor). So - I will try to focus on hip/ham strength and form...Maybe think about those few things. Sometimes its really a simple answer...thats my opinion anyway after reading through your posts. :) Take care Majutsu.
 
wnt2bBeast said:
i pin plates to the stack to get it up to where i want..i love he look on peoples faces when you walk it out and stretch across to the other side so they are unable to do those awesome chest building cable crosses lol..every guy i see do those has such a great chest..im gonna hit them up as an ME move next bench day

:chomp:
LOL. Yeah, that cable crossover for chest is the most worthless exercise!
All the tools at my gym still think they are building muscle doing them! LOL
...Their chests are as flat as pancakes.
 
majutsu said:
Alright, stuck at 405. Wide stance. Keep my arch well. I get stuck right out of the hole. I used to bend forward at the bottom, making people think my abs or low back was weak. But my dead (which is a heavy back style) is easy 405, with probably 500 in there. I realized today that I was bending forward to compensate for my weak legs. Today I could easily keep that back and arch, but I was just glued in the hole. Went to 425 and just glued at the bottom. Then went down to 365 and did good explosive reps.

I believe my problem is weak glutes and hams (isn't that what you use to come out of the hole?).

I think good mornings would help. I did pull-throughs and those felt good. I don't have access to a GHR.

I was doing stiff legged deads, but realized today that is not really helping me at all.

What accessories can I do to improve my squat? I probably want to continue to do ME squats, because I still benefit from form improvements, etc, and am not advanced enough at squatting to have good carry over from box squats, etc. So I don't think I am looking for a new ME movement yet (except maybe good mornings), just new, more effective accessory movements.

This is my weakest movement as my bench is about the same as my squat, and my dead is 100lbs heavier than either. My squat needs help!

Based on my description, have I diagnosed my weaknesses correctly? I can't take video because I don't have the equipment, although I may get it soon. I just have computer and still digital cam. But many pl's have watched my form, including today at 315, and said it's fine. I think it's just some key
muscle weaknesses.

I always liked doing pause reps, where you would pause at the bottom of the squat and hold it for a count of 5 and then explode up. I would go far below parallel and try for a set of 8 or so.
 
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