*TRUE* veterans - please answer some questions

[decem]

all you hear on this board anymore is "Liquidex" this "Arimidex" that.... "make sure you have arimidex".... "i would never do a cycle without liquidex"..... yada yada yada.

now, from what i understand, liquidex and arimidex are fairly new revolutions in the bodybuilding community. correct?

so for you older guys who have really been in the game for awhile, what did you used to use to combat gyno and water retention? you just used nolvadex for the gyno and dealt with the water bloat as part of the game right?

i understand how arimidex is a great asset to a cycle, BUT do you guys feel that is truly a NECESSITY as many of the people on this board push it off as?

to me, unless your slangin or an old man with a career, that shit is too damn expensive to justify using it when the only REAL benefit is fighting off water retention (which some people seem to like).

older, wiser, more experienced vets - would you recommend that these guys spend the fortune that it takes to buy this stuff and include it in every cycle (even cycles of only 30mg dbol and 500mg test - which many are) or do you recommend they save their money?

 

[lincoln]

Good ?

 

[TxLonghorn]

Well, it's not just water that it helps with. In the old days, guys didn't have anything to help. Nolva only blocks the estrogen from binding and not from forming in the first place. So, if you take nolva, you have all this excess estrogen running around...and when you stop, it can now bind. Rebound gyno. This isn't a sure thing, but it has happened. Proviron helps to an extent.

But arimidex/liquidex stops the aromatizing to begin with. No rebound problems, etc. And with liquidex the price it is, is comparable to nolva/proviron (proviron ain't cheap).

The point is, nolva is a 4th generation anti-e, whereas arimidex is 5th generation. It's just better, and yes it's expensive. But, it's also worth it when you get it in liquidex form.

 

[decem]

thanks tx, but you still didn't fully answer the question at hand.. yes i know the science behind it. yes i know it is better. yes i know that it is worth it if you have the money.

what i want to know is do the vets think this drug is a necessity no matter what, even for someone who's strapped for $$$?

even better question, if your a vet and you could go back in time and spend the appropriate money to buy this stuff, would you go back and redo your beginner's cycles (let's say their first 1-4 cycles) that had less than 500mg or 750mg test and some dbol in them, and add liquidex/arimidex to those cycles - or would you stay here in the present day absolutely content with your previous cycles that had no arimidex/liquidex?

bumping for some more replies from the vets.

 

[cutler31]

bump...Id like to hear some of the vet's opinions too

 

[macrophage69alpha]

LESS WATER
NO GYNO- watch out with drol, fina, or deca
LESS FAT

ESSENTIAL? NO

WORTH THE EXTRA CASH? YES

The reason that it is so highly reccomended is that estrogen to a great extent is responsible for MOST of the dreaded side effects of AS.

 

[decem]

DCS, all great points, BUT would you go back in time to the cycles that you did that did not include liquidex because it wasn't available and add liquidex if you could??

 

[TxLonghorn]

Damn, decem, if you don't want to use it, don't. Sheesh. No, it is not essential, neither is nolva or proviron. Sure, you might get breasties, but you're not gonna die. People have been doing gear for a long time without any anti-e's.

It's also dependant on what you are taking and how much. If you take winny, you don't need it, deca, nope, etc.

I guess I just fail to see what your question is, because I think everybody has answered it.

 

[decem]

Damn, decem, if you don't want to use it, don't. Sheesh. No, it is not essential, neither is nolva or proviron. Sure, you might get breasties, but you're not gonna die. People have been doing gear for a long time without any anti-e's.

It's also dependant on what you are taking and how much. If you take winny, you don't need it, deca, nope, etc.

I guess I just fail to see what your question is, because I think everybody has answered it.

ehh..... ouch.

 

[decem]

no but really..

I guess I just fail to see what your question is

would you go back in time to the cycles that you did that did not include liquidex because it wasn't available and add liquidex if you could??

 

[Bossman]

Necessity, No. Smart idea, yes.

Is going to college necessity, no. Smart idea, yes.

Spend the extra dough, as stated above estrogen is the cause of many AS side effects. It will keep you from getting gyno, which is the biggest plus. I have also noticed that without the excess water retention, you get your "true" gains and retain much more post cycle. This helps a great deal as far as people at work and family not seeing you blow up like a baloon and lose it in 2 months, which is a dead give away of AS use. I see guys out all the time, and they look at me funny when I ask them "test/dbol or deca/d-bol?" I can spot it the minute I meet them. It also helps post cycle depression because you don't see yourself with a drastic loss post cycle.

 

[TxLonghorn]

Well, if those guys got estrogen related gyno, I'm sure the answer is 'Yes'. Otherwise, no. But having liquidex might have allowed them to do things then, that they could not because of the fear of these sides.

Example, a gram/week of test. I don't think any of those 'old-timers' liked test that much because of the estrogen sides.

 

[TxLonghorn]

Oh, and I didn't mean to come across harshly if I did. I just couldn't understand what you were getting at.

 

[decem]

Oh, and I didn't mean to come across harshly if I did. I just couldn't understand what you were getting at.

no problemo, i understand.

 

[ironmaster]

Well decem, I'll venture to answer this, even though you seem to be banging on old guys. I am 52, and have used steroids off and on for nearly 30 years.....always on since my early 40's. I have never had gyno, still have all my hair, and have used over a gram of test a week right along.......and used no anti-estrogens at all. We knew nothing of anti-e's in the old days, but then we didn't use the mega-doses of gear that are in vogue today. (Deca and high doses of tren make me feel a little "itchy", but winstrol seems to fix that).
I don't think it is essential that you use this product. Either you are prone to sides, or you are not.....and you should know by now whether you are, since I guess you are cycling gear w/o. This is especially true at moderate doses of test.
That said, I am currently using arimidex and liquidex because of the rather heavy doses it takes to stay big at my age. (currently on GH, insulin, anadrol and 1750 mg. of various test products). No point in taking chances, and I do like the hardening effects of the liquidex....
I do share some of your questions about the origins of the various liquidex products as you mentioned in your other post above.

 

[decem]

ironmaster,

thank you for your reply. i wasn't banging on old guys at all. actually, i was seeking the opinions of only the old guys, especially yourself, as i value your opinions/information/advice a more than some of the other guys on the board, simply because you have been there and you have done that, and nothing is better proof than experience (right Andy13?? he hehe).

it is your advice/suggestions that have now convinced me to not waste my money on liquidex/arimidex.

thank you again.

 

[ironmaster]

I understand, decem, and I know you to be a good and thoughtful brother from your posts on several boards.
There is no substitute for experience.....anything I answer is based on personal anecdotal evidence. I have documented with photos, the effects of various gear combinations over the years, and have before and after pics to illustrate my opinions....I recommend this to all. Take the same picture once a week through each cycle, and you will know for sure what works, and what doesn't for you.
I notice that there was no clear answer to your question about "who and where" liquidex is manufactured.