Tren Gyno Misunderstood

[Jakegusman]

Hi guys , now I'm
Using my iPhone so I can't copy and paste all the research I'm been reading but in lehmans terms. Trenbolone is accused of been able to produce gyno because it has metabolites that are prolactins that bind to the p receptor and from there we go . But from every study I read it says that without high levels of circulating estrogen in the body it is Impossible for prolactin / progestin gyno to happen and they are very adamant on this read deep for yourself . So not been able to take Nolva with tren is not 100% true because yes it may spike prolactin and shit more but it is harmless because there's no active estrogen . Obviously Nolva would be last choice over clomid or dex but it is useable and won't make your gyno work of u have your esto under control

 

[Jakegusman]

Basically it is 100% fact that progestin and prolactin cannot cause gyno unless they are synthase with large amount of estrogen .

 

[TheRippedReverend]

So what do you think happens while stacked with test?

Estrogen goes up?

Prolatin causes lactating of the breasts

Got milk?

 

[Jakegusman]

This is the exact response I was expecting . Ahh yes would this happen if stacked with test AND also running Nolva considering the problem starts with estrogen so give me reason why Nolva can make tren cause gyno if tren gyno can't work without estrogen

 

[TheRippedReverend]

This is the exact response I was expecting . Ahh yes would this happen if stacked with test AND also running Nolva considering the problem starts with estrogen so give me reason why Nolva can make tren cause gyno if tren gyno can't work without estrogen

B/c its progesterone related.

Progesterone : Its not so much progesterone that we watch, which is actually a healthy hormone, but progestins which may act upon its receptors. Progestins, like Tren or Deca (nor-9's), may act on its receptor or lower progesterone in the blood. Gyno and lactating are more common side effects. Some people use progesterone receptor blockers to combat this, or a prolactin production inhibitor.

Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) : Nolvadex is a SERM. It selectively binds to certain estrogen receptors, effectively blocking the estrogen and stopping unwanted sides such as gyno. It DOES NOT lower estro levels in the blood, it only blocks it from binding to certain receptors. It also helps your blood fat levels. It does not suppress LH, blocks desired estro receptors and helps stop HCG from desensitizing your testicles to natural LH. Nolva should be used during HCG therapy, at 20 mg a day, for the reason i just mentioned. Can be used during cycle if you see signs of gyno. Its mainly used to block the estrogen spike when you come off cycle, and should be used right through to the end until natural test levels are back. One drawback to consider about Nolva is that it may cause progesterone receptors to become more sensitive. This means that while using progestins such as Deca or Tren, you may become more sensetive to progestin related gyno.

 

[Jakegusman]

Thanks a lot , see the problem I found myself in is well I'm running 500mg test per week with 75mg tren Ed . During the course iv been taking clomid Ed , there was a bit of a stuff up and I ran out of clomid , bang next day my chest is starting to watery I can see the gyno coming on I have Nolva at hand but was hesident to use because I'm on tren . But I did it anyway took 20mgs and my chest looks better already after 4 hours . It's only for a day or two that I will use Nolva until my arimadex arrives that should be all sweet? I presume it would take a few doses of tamoxifen to really fuck me with atleast for two days should b safe?

 

[Jakegusman]

Also from what I gather progrstin related gyno doesn't actually cause growth of breast tissue on puffy nipples and lactacting

 

[Sinister Minister]

OP, ok so are u making statements based upon ur belief or are u asking questions regarding this bc now I'm confused about the whole basis of this thread... The rev just summed it all up for u... I couldnt agree more with his retort either

 

[eddymerckx]

1. in the world of AAS, anecdotal information or "institutional knowledge" is often all, and many times, the best information available. It is not always the most-cutting edge or at worst it does not change fast enough but it's the best available.

2. anyone can find a PubMed Abstract to support a generalized statement they want to make but those few that have the ability to read the actual article will tell you that its applicability to AAS users is analogous at best (as we just are not studied--gyno is not one of 1372 unique expressions of breast cancer--not to mention that breat cancer in males can be very unique and not readily treatable in the same manner as female--and that is not even drilling down further by age/race/ethnicity. socio-economic etc).

3. Thus we are left with a volume of anecdotal evidence that suggests 19-nors and Tamoxifen are not a good idea to mix. There are a number of anecdotal evidence to the contrary, but until there is a definitive understanding of the mechanism of Tamoxifen (and even now it tend to up regulate certain receptors and down-regulate others; even colloquially it is understood to be an antagonist/anti-antagonist)

4. So what do we do? While i have graduate level courses in biochem/genetics/biophys/organic chem/and anatomy (before I realized I just was not med school material and smartly opted for law school)I can say, without hesitation, I read all the studies offered for and against and understand maybe 25% of what they say. The depth (and narrow focus) of these studies have progressed so far beyond the knowledge I learned years ago I simply agree to defer to anecdotal evidence b/c (1) its directly applicable; (2) it is not trying to fit a random article into some theory I wish to postulate. A google search is not research.

5. Thus a general statement like "control the estrogen and proge/prolac will not be an issue" may be true in a macro sense but it is not an immutable principle--we simply do not know every permutation.

6. In conclusion, therefore, if bros with 20 years of gear use under their belt say, for the most part, 19-nors and tamoxifen = bad idea, then that is far better than me attempting to mount my own crusade to prove otherwise. I don't need to know why its a bad idea, just that at best, its murky (not at the macro level but I am talking gene expression etc.)and I would rather not find out for myself--gyno surgery would suck.

7. I am open to change my mind--just show me something other than abstracts of somewhat analogous articles.

I am done with this topic forever--do tamoxifen with 19-nors if you want--play in traffic if you want--either way I will sleep the same.

 

[bluetoolpaul]

eddy........you just made my brain explode...lol

I cant see how anyone could argue what you just posted, well said brother.

 

[eddymerckx]

eddy........you just made my brain explode...lol

I cant see how anyone could argue what you just posted, well said brother.

 

[TheRippedReverend]

Also from what I gather progrstin related gyno doesn't actually cause growth of breast tissue on puffy nipples and lactacting

If there lactating bro no dont use the nolva! Just wait till ur stuff comes in. Letro would help your deal

 

[TheRippedReverend]

Where is Stevesmi when you need him?

 

[johnnyboy3689282]

Ill put it to you like this... There are no studies out there that will show nolvadex shouldn't be used with a 19 nor.. Your gonna find a million people and scientist that will say one thing and a million that will say another... Tamoxifen will raise prolactin levels, but i have seen people use nolva with deca and never have a problem, and seen people use it with test and get Gynomasteria, Man boobs, and Lactation... Its all with how your body reacts to certain chemicals.. IT will battle the 19 nor for the AR receptor. This is where the Prolactin comes from... Nolva only stops estrogen from building up in the breast, but will cause a raise in free motion....
If you can use Nolva, and dont get the sides, it is the ultimate SERM, but why take the risk, when you can use Clomid or Torem... There are better options available out there bro...

 

[stevesmi]

a few years later this is what we have found

1. the conversion of tren to prolactin where it would cause gyno you would have to abuse it for long periods. example if you ran tren at 400mg per week for 6 months straight. then yeah you could find yourself lactating from that. I find the prolactin thing to be overblown in the fitness community, if you run tren the right way it should not be a problem

2. the you can't get prolactin problems if you keep estrogen low is only true with females. it isn't true with men from the newest info out there

3. using nolva with a progestin can cause an upregulation, i have seen guys use nolva in pct and get gyno issues even after cycle. take that as you wish but it does happen. just google and look at who it has happened to

4. prolactin is a useless hormone in men. we don't need it but it does serve a purpose in that it causes a sexual refractory period, and it does keep dopamine balanced. if you have a sex addiction and use an anti-prolactin drug, i hope you have multiple partners cuz you will need it. I personally find the combination of the androgens from tren + a prolactin drug to be a nuisance in my life.

you can buy caber/dostinex from ag-guys.com, they got good stuff