Training differently?

[leatherface]

Hey guys, Ill be starting that new cycle soon and just thought to myself if I should change my training in anyway? I'm usually doing a Westside routine, or custome Westside routine, but wondering if I should do anything any differently for the 10 weeks while im on the gear? Just thought I'd ask.

Thanks

 

[AhMadKooL]

It would be great if u can elaborate on what the Westside routine is....

 

[Top-Notch]

lol...yeah change up your routine everyone couple weeks...gives your body a shock once you change it instead of it always being the same.

 

[blut wump]

Westside has built-in change. Here's some info fo the interested:
http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/article-westside-barbell.aspx

The danger with ME days when on gear is that your muscles can get stronger much faster than your ligaments and tendons. If you've been doing Westside for a long time then your muscle gains are going to be less and your tendons are going to be stronger already than a newbie who would likely suffer injuries galore running Westside on gear. Someone experienced, especially if this isn't your first cycle would be in a much safer state.

The time while you're 'on' is a good time to be working more volume than usual. Make your max efforts be max triples rather than max singles and you'll likely be fine. Alternatively, look into some of the periodized routines and run a couple of successive volume phases with a week of deload when you need it. After a final deload, at the end of your cycle and before PCT, you can slide into an intensoty phase or move back to Westside to enjoy your new power.

 

[mikefear]

I'd do something with more volume.. westside is great for strength, and while strength breeds hypertrophy, a true bb'ing routine may be more beneficial for ya..

try a split like:
chest
back
shoulders
legs
arms
off, repeat.. this way you'll hit the same muscle group once every six days (sort of like 2x a week) and you'll be able to do higher volume on each bodypart... volume, muscle volume and concentration (mind-muscle connection) will get you to grow.

 

[blut wump]

I'd do something with more volume.. westside is great for strength, and while strength breeds hypertrophy, a true bb'ing routine may be more beneficial for ya..

try a split like:
chest
back
shoulders
legs
arms
off, repeat.. this way you'll hit the same muscle group once every six days (sort of like 2x a week) and you'll be able to do higher volume on each bodypart... volume, muscle volume and concentration (mind-muscle connection) will get you to grow.

Not if his goal is more strength rather than just growing muscle bulk. He might even have a weight division that he doesn't care to leave.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with simple progression-based training while on gear orientated towards strength rather than hypertrophy. Many prefer it. The basic effect of gear is to enhance conditioning and recovery.

 

[get456]

I'd do something with more volume.. westside is great for strength, and while strength breeds hypertrophy, a true bb'ing routine may be more beneficial for ya..

try a split like:
chest
back
shoulders
legs
arms
off, repeat.. this way you'll hit the same muscle group once every six days (sort of like 2x a week) and you'll be able to do higher volume on each bodypart... volume, muscle volume and concentration (mind-muscle connection) will get you to grow.

have you read any of the 5x5 threads or madcow's webpage... look up dual factor theory.

if nothing else it is an interesting read and probably something you've never heard of before.

 

[al420]

I'd do something with more volume.. westside is great for strength, and while strength breeds hypertrophy, a true bb'ing routine may be more beneficial for ya..

try a split like:
chest
back
shoulders - worked them w/ chest
legs - only once a week - that is just sad
arms - worked them w/ chest, shoulders, and back
off, repeat.. this way you'll hit the same muscle group once every six days (sort of like 2x a week) and you'll be able to do higher volume on each bodypart... volume, muscle volume and concentration (mind-muscle connection) will get you to grow.

THat is straight out of FLex magazine....lol

Mike you haven't been training long enough to know what works. Thatis not a lfame as anyone as dedicated as you seem to be deserves props, but you are a pretty small guy and I am guessing your lifts are small as well. You would benefit from listening to some larger fellas then whomever is convincing you the M&F Fagathon workouts are even decent. I know you work w/ some smart guys but are any of them even close to being big?

Size comes from strength and while there are benefits to some BB techniques the majority is junk theroy ..... where periodization is proven science.

 

[mikefear]

Not if his goal is more strength rather than just growing muscle bulk. He might even have a weight division that he doesn't care to leave.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with simple progression-based training while on gear orientated towards strength rather than hypertrophy. Many prefer it. The basic effect of gear is to enhance conditioning and recovery.

he didn't specify, which is why i suggested more a hypertrophy-related method.

 

[mikefear]

THat is straight out of FLex magazine....lol

Mike you haven't been training long enough to know what works. Thatis not a lfame as anyone as dedicated as you seem to be deserves props, but you are a pretty small guy and I am guessing your lifts are small as well. You would benefit from listening to some larger fellas then whomever is convincing you the M&F Fagathon workouts are even decent. I know you work w/ some smart guys but are any of them even close to being big?

Size comes from strength and while there are benefits to some BB techniques the majority is junk theroy ..... where periodization is proven science.

I dont read magazines. So I guess that's a coincidence.. I watch videos and talk to guys that are big, and this is what I've gathered..

oh, and no.. i'm not big.. but i've seen your pics and it would appear that neither of us have been training long enough to know what works.

 

[blut wump]

he didn't specify, which is why i suggested more a hypertrophy-related method.

Variety of advice is always a good thing.

As a Westsider, though, the man's a powerlifter or tries to train like one. I'd say that, unless he specifies otherwise, his goals are to improve the big three lifts. He probably doesn't even remember when he last had an 'arms day' or only worked his posterior chain once in the week. His whole method of working out is geared around lifts rather than muscles or muscle-groups.

When he squats, assuming he really thinks much about muscles rather than the weight on the bar, he's thinking more about his whole lower body or posterior chain than his quads or thighs. The idea of only working lower body or legs once per week would bring a smile to his face.

Another thing to think about is that there are very few small powerlifters and no successful ones. One thing they learn quickly is that bone won't lift the bar for you. Training for strength builds muscle quickly and it's only when one worries about the aesthetics of the muscle that shaping and cutting become concerns.

 

[mikefear]

I agree. wasn't arguing with ya

my mind is just in the bb'er mode, as is for most people on the board, so even after seeing his post about WS-method, I was still focused on pure size/aesthetics rather than strength/cns training.

 

[al420]

I dont read magazines. So I guess that's a coincidence.. I watch videos and talk to guys that are big, and this is what I've gathered..

oh, and no.. i'm not big.. but i've seen your pics and it would appear that neither of us have been training long enough to know what works.

I will try to get my BF down for you -

Squat: 405x3
Bench: 245x3
Deadlift:405x5

What are your numbers?

And Jay Cutler says: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=520092

 

[get456]

I agree. wasn't arguing with ya

my mind is just in the bb'er mode, as is for most people on the board, so even after seeing his post about WS-method, I was still focused on pure size/aesthetics rather than strength/cns training.

the whole point of periodization is that a BB workout will lead to overtraining and no progress, period.

It isnt just about powerlifting vs BB, it just *happens* that most PL'ers carry a much higher BF than BB's. but that doestn make the muscle under that bf less "pretty" lol

PS- did u read about the dual factor yet?

take a look at this link http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/48-post3.html

also http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=1110

i think the second one says a lot

*edit - oh wait... one more! http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5466367&postcount=958

 

[blut wump]

Don't think, for a moment, that a strength/powerlifter/Oly training style leads to a paucity of mass. The typical top-level Oly lifter weighs in at 350 pounds plus and, by the nature of his sport, uses much less drugs than an equivalent-level BBer. Strongmen can come in over 400 pounds. Trim away 60 or 70 of fat and they're still larger than equivalent BBers.

Anyway, this is the wrong forum for discussing training in detail. Suffice to say that BB-style training is not viewed by most of the weightlifting world as the best way to grow. It's certainly not the best way to grow naturally and I don't believe that it's the best way to grow for any given amount of gear. The advantage that the top-level BBers have over pretty much anyone else is that they are unrestricted by concerns of quantity or nature of gear and, even, of continued good health.

As to why strength lifters carry more fat? It allows them to lift more. It increases cross-sectional area which aids considerably in force distribution. They wouldn't gain the mass if it didn't help them to put more weight on the bar. Again, I'm drifting away from the typical concerns of this forum, though.

 

[leatherface]

Wow, alot of responses. I appreciate all the comments. Also, sorry I didn't specify in this thread what my goals were but, blut wump hit it right on the head. I definitely could put on some mass(and im sure I will), but It's really all about power here.
To some of the comments made... I liked the idea of going for the 3rep max for my ME days, which I really might consider...id also probably change up a few other things.. hell even train my biceps again haha.
I have done 5x5 before, infact I do variations of it all the time when I'm not doing WS or when I want a break from it.
I was simply looking for a way to .. alter my training while on gear, to gain the most explosive raw power I can. Be it with the WS routine, a normal beginner split, 5x5, whatever.

Any questions feel free to ask, and thanks again for all the responses.

 

[Twoguns]

I'd do something with more volume.. westside is great for strength, and while strength breeds hypertrophy, a true bb'ing routine may be more beneficial for ya..

try a split like:
chest
back
shoulders
legs
arms
off, repeat.. this way you'll hit the same muscle group once every six days (sort of like 2x a week) and you'll be able to do higher volume on each bodypart... volume, muscle volume and concentration (mind-muscle connection) will get you to grow.

That is exactly how I train, and a good split. I also hit cardio five days a week right after I lift for 30 min moderate, even on my bulker. The only thing is that I try to do a little extra legs here and there, but on leg day I crush them.

Al420: nice quads bro.

 

[solidspine]

When your on your cycle, you are going to want to of course split it up, but in general go heavy, on everything, and keep increasing the weights,

Your also going to want to be in the gym all the time, so not knowing much about you or the Westside cycle, just remember, split it up, 3 days than 5 days etc, and go heavy.

 

[Twoguns]

When your on your cycle, you are going to want to of course split it up, but in general go heavy, on everything, and keep increasing the weights,

Your also going to want to be in the gym all the time, so not knowing much about you or the Westside cycle, just remember, split it up, 3 days than 5 days etc, and go heavy.

I have to go five, couldn't even dream of 3 !!!!!

 

[FFQuads]

I'd do something with more volume.. westside is great for strength, and while strength breeds hypertrophy, a true bb'ing routine may be more beneficial for ya..

try a split like:
chest
back
shoulders
legs
arms
off, repeat.. this way you'll hit the same muscle group once every six days (sort of like 2x a week) and you'll be able to do higher volume on each bodypart... volume, muscle volume and concentration (mind-muscle connection) will get you to grow.

I don't know what to think of this. I did something like this split for years and about 6 months ago I was turned on to the 5x5. It has made me stronger and bigger! The old split worked ok but lacked in strength focus. I think it depends on the person. I have met many people that are strong as hell and look small, weak, and just plain bad. I have also met guys that are twice my size, ripped, huge, and weak as hell. I think it's important to remember your goals. Do you want to be a BBer and never get the strength you dream of or would you rather train heavy and focus on core lifts? Core training, diet, and a good head on your shoulders will give you the best of both worlds! 20 inch. arms, 600 DL, 600 Squats, and a bench that will make you proud of yourself is what most people would be happy with. The 5x5 style of training takes heart and the other just takes up time....

2 cents...

 

[mikefear]

I will try to get my BF down for you -

Squat: 405x3
Bench: 245x3
Deadlift:405x5

What are your numbers?

And Jay Cutler says: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=520092

dl 405x1
bench 225x3
can't really squat b/c of my RA, but most i've done was 285x3

btw, i've been training hard for 1 year and I started at 134 lbs 18 months ago.. i also happen to only be 182 lbs

what's your height/weight/steroid use like?

until recently i was on 100mg/wk of test for HRT.. just recently bumped it to 200mg but i cant really lift because of a torn ECU tendon sheath.

also, al i am not knockin you or anything, i think you look fine. i couldnt care less about bf - takes mass to move mass!.. honestly. i've done cardio about.. twice in my life and i eat like a monster -- i'm surprised i'm not a big fat blob.

keep on keepin' on homie. we'll both be big strong fuckers eventually.

 

[225mygoal]

mike,

sorry to hijack the thread, have you rested at all, i would take some time off and during that time do some agressive growth therapy I would do 4iu a day atleast for 6 weeks along with some deca 200 mg no lifting though let the muscles and tendons get some rest don;t aggrevate!

225mygoal

 

[leatherface]

mike,

sorry to hijack the thread, have you rested at all, i would take some time off and during that time do some agressive growth therapy I would do 4iu a day atleast for 6 weeks along with some deca 200 mg no lifting though let the muscles and tendons get some rest don;t aggrevate!

225mygoal

No problem

On another note, I was considering a 5x5(actually I've found small variations, like doing 4x4 for upperbody, and a proggressive routine for legs/back to work good), WS, or a mix of the 2. Right now Im thinking of taking the normal WS routine, and for ME upper, ill do a 3 rep max. For DE upper, ill just do my normal oly lifts and speed movements...but for what should be ME lower and DE lower, ill just have a seperate back day and leg day. That way I can get alot of volume in 1 day instead of splitting it up. For those of you who know WS, how does this sound? To those who don't, keep the replies coming, I'm getting some good ideas here!

Thanks!

 

[mikefear]

No problem

On another note, I was considering a 5x5(actually I've found small variations, like doing 4x4 for upperbody, and a proggressive routine for legs/back to work good), WS, or a mix of the 2. Right now Im thinking of taking the normal WS routine, and for ME upper, ill do a 3 rep max. For DE upper, ill just do my normal oly lifts and speed movements...but for what should be ME lower and DE lower, ill just have a seperate back day and leg day. That way I can get alot of volume in 1 day instead of splitting it up. For those of you who know WS, how does this sound? To those who don't, keep the replies coming, I'm getting some good ideas here!

Thanks!

I know WS and it does sound good.. you must be a strong motherfucker.. WS + oly lifts = god among men!

 

[mikefear]

mike,

sorry to hijack the thread, have you rested at all, i would take some time off and during that time do some agressive growth therapy I would do 4iu a day atleast for 6 weeks along with some deca 200 mg no lifting though let the muscles and tendons get some rest don;t aggrevate!

225mygoal

i guess you didn't read my post.

i'm currently out of the gym because of a hurt wrist.

and i don't use any AAS besides what's prescribed to me..and i'm 22 so I wont be using HGH.

and if i was using deca, it'd be more than 200mg and i wouldnt be sitting on the sidelines while doing it

 

[Twoguns]

bench 225x3? this that a typo?

dl 405x1
bench 225x3
can't really squat b/c of my RA, but most i've done was 285x3

btw, i've been training hard for 1 year and I started at 134 lbs 18 months ago.. i also happen to only be 182 lbs

what's your height/weight/steroid use like?

until recently i was on 100mg/wk of test for HRT.. just recently bumped it to 200mg but i cant really lift because of a torn ECU tendon sheath.

also, al i am not knockin you or anything, i think you look fine. i couldnt care less about bf - takes mass to move mass!.. honestly. i've done cardio about.. twice in my life and i eat like a monster -- i'm surprised i'm not a big fat blob.

keep on keepin' on homie. we'll both be big strong fuckers eventually.

 

[mikefear]

i don't barbell bench typically..i'm 6' 180 lbs.

i usually do dumbbell benching.. is al420's 245x3 impressive enough for you?

neither of us are here to impress anyone.. i've come from benching 105 lbs 18 months ago to where i am now. give me a few more years if training and then we'll talk again.

 

[Twoguns]

i don't barbell bench typically..i'm 6' 180 lbs.

i usually do dumbbell benching.. is al420's 245x3 impressive enough for you?

neither of us are here to impress anyone.. i've come from benching 105 lbs 18 months ago to where i am now. give me a few more years if training and then we'll talk again.

Not knocking you, just from your pic it suprised me. My buddy is 174 benching 315x3. That impresses me if you must know. Oh, by the way he gets 225x17.

 

[mikefear]

that's a strong dude.. must have been conditioning for a while.. i'll get there eventually

 

[Twoguns]

that's a strong dude.. must have been conditioning for a while.. i'll get there eventually

he was a Div 1 wrestler in college, and from the back in your avatar, you resemble him

 

[mikefear]

yeah, my back is my strongest point.

i know technique has a LOT to do with the amount of weight you can push while benching (same goes for squats and deads), but like a lot of people, it's just too harsh on my shoulders do strictly use barbell.. so I tend to go more towards dumbbells (as I usually dont have a spotter). I think that if I practiced for a few months I'd be able to easily get my bb benching numbers to shoot up.. maybe I'll consider it during the summer

 

[Deleted member 33117]

You seem to have a back problem and now a hurt wrist and are not training that heavy yet. My advise is to keep training and build up connective tissue for now. If you are experiencing minor injuries now, when you get on the sauce you are going to really hurt yourself IMHO.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

Ops sorry started reading the thread and thought mikefear was the one asking about training differently on his first cycle.

 

[JuicedAthletics]

I have yet to see any "bodybuilder" that has used a 5 day split to build his foundation.
You need to lift big to get big.. not once a week volume routines...
guys near 200lbs benching just over their bodyweight for singles and triples? come on... no need for sauce with those numbers..
im the farthest thing from a mass monster.. 6'1 220's.... 25 years old..
incline bench 355x6
deads 455x8
squats 405x6-8

what the hell.. eat some steaks!!!!!! try some HIT training!!!! you'll be able to break 200lbs and throw away that 100mg HRT dose...

 

[Twoguns]

I have yet to see any "bodybuilder" that has used a 5 day split to build his foundation.
...

five day split is pretty common

 

[Twoguns]

I have yet to see any "bodybuilder" that has used a 5 day split to build his foundation.
...

five day split is pretty common on a bulker

 

[JuicedAthletics]

I take that back.. What I meant was more along the lines of the lifts being performed... No one is going to get big doing a higher volume lower intensity split...

They might say they use those splits for the sake of a column or spread in a bodybuilding magazine but I can assure you that they are hitting those weights with low, low, heavy reps..


Sorry if I put that in the wrong terms..

 

[mikefear]

I have yet to see any "bodybuilder" that has used a 5 day split to build his foundation.
You need to lift big to get big.. not once a week volume routines...
guys near 200lbs benching just over their bodyweight for singles and triples? come on... no need for sauce with those numbers..
im the farthest thing from a mass monster.. 6'1 220's.... 25 years old..
incline bench 355x6
deads 455x8
squats 405x6-8

what the hell.. eat some steaks!!!!!! try some HIT training!!!! you'll be able to break 200lbs and throw away that 100mg HRT dose...

either you suck at english or your comprehension/analyzation skills are simply not up to par with a 5th grader.

i am not sure what conclusions you tried to draw from my post.. there are plenty of 200 lb guys who cant bench near 200 lbs.. its called being NEW to the world of bodybuilding.. 18 months is NOT a long time for me and for the first 21 years of my life I had about as much test running through my system as an 11 year old girl, cut me a friggin break.. i've put on 50 fucking lbs in the past year and a half and my numbers have tripled and quadrupled.. i think i'm making fine progress.

 

[JuicedAthletics]

either you suck at english or your comprehension/analyzation skills are simply not up to par with a 5th grader.

Your mouth is obviously the largest part of your body huh? I'll make sure to look for you in the kid's section, next time I visit Larry at his store...

 

[OMEGA]

got some strong bros in here

woah!

At my best I just repped 315 for 4 sets of 8-10 on Deads, Squats, and Bench

Now I never go past 225, but I do it for REPSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

kinda like cardio, decided to Look Pretty instead of just big

hopefull if all goes well I can post pics by Summer

 

[leatherface]

lol lotta nice posts in here now bump

 

[FFQuads]

i don't barbell bench typically..i'm 6' 180 lbs.

i usually do dumbbell benching.. is al420's 245x3 impressive enough for you?

neither of us are here to impress anyone.. i've come from benching 105 lbs 18 months ago to where i am now. give me a few more years if training and then we'll talk again.

Fuck the fucking dumbbells? Your not going to get a strong bench from that. You need to bench! I'm by no means a great bencher but I could barely do 300 lbs. back when I was pressing the 120 lbs. DB for reps. and I have not touched one in months and I've gotten my bench to 370 lbs. This tells me something........Fuck that old workout and DB's... BENCH 3xwk!

 

[Bilwil]

Fuck the fucking dumbbells? Your not going to get a strong bench from that. You need to bench! I'm by no means a great bencher but I could barely do 300 lbs. back when I was pressing the 120 lbs. DB for reps. and I have not touched one in months and I've gotten my bench to 370 lbs. This tells me something........Fuck that old workout and DB's... BENCH 3xwk!

I think this gets back to the question of what a person wants. Is it stricly strength and big lifts or is it aesthetics? I can not use a barbell to bench press because it kills my left shoulder. I use dumbbells. I also have a very close personal friend who was Mr Universe and also took 6th in the Olympia and he never uses barbells for chest work . . .all dumbbell work. I dare to say that most on this board would be very happy to have his physique. So I guess it is just dependent on your goals as well as each persons physical limitations.

Bilwil

 

[FFQuads]

I think this gets back to the question of what a person wants. Is it stricly strength and big lifts or is it aesthetics? I can not use a barbell to bench press because it kills my left shoulder. I use dumbbells. I also have a very close personal friend who was Mr Universe and also took 6th in the Olympia and he never uses barbells for chest work . . .all dumbbell work. I dare to say that most on this board would be very happy to have his physique. So I guess it is just dependent on your goals as well as each persons physical limitations.

Bilwil

this is true.....