Time to throw out Bill Starr's 5x5 routine.

[LoneTree]

Background: Bill Starr was a strength coach who wrote a book about 'STRENGTH' training of 'FOOTBALL PLAYERS' in !!!!! 1970's !!!!!
Even at that time, it might have not been fully relevant to body builkders.
More importantly, research has moved too far since 1970's. It is now out-dated, and plainly wrong.

WHAT IS A 'SET'?
My first disagreement: By definition, a set is to failure (or when you feel you can't do one more full repetition). If it is not to failure, it is not a set.
There are similar techniques offered by others that do not take set to failoure.
The most distinguished researchers with American Society of Sports Medicine has called those 'sets' as 'warm ups', 'wastage of time', and resulting in little benefit.

I will take next point in my next thread.

 

[Ish]

So what are your alternatives?

 

[Kane Fan]

?
yes and surely you, Mr.Nobody are vastly more experienced with Strength training then Bill Star
and 5x5's I'm sure have been less benificial then your 'techniques' which I have no doubt will be regugitated HIT nonsence that is in no way orgional to you...
a Set is not defined by going to failure it is only ignorant to say it is
but then what can be expected from someone saying to throw out the 5x5 routine

 

[blut wump]

Burn the troll.

You made no point, here, Lonetree. You merely told us that you don't think a set is a set. I think you need a fresh set of 'distinguished researchers' since your current crop is rubbish.

I hope you're not planning to spam us with a series of these vacuous threads.

 

[BiggT]

"Outdated"? Perhaps you can enlighten on on the latest, cutting-edge methods. Maybe doing dumbell presses on a swissball.....Oh yeah, take a well trained athlete and put them on HIT, see how weak they get.

 

[view]

real world experience has proven time and time again that the 5x5 is an amazing program, and that typicaly programs like you describe only succeed due to amazing diet dedication and training that is unnecesarily hard. You can train less hard using periodization and gain better than going all out to failure all of the time.

 

[rbtrout]

Amen to that.

 

[Guinness5.0]

More importantly, research has moved too far since 1970's. It is now out-dated, and plainly wrong.
If something worked in the 70's, it'll work now. I don't think evolution has affected humans that much in 30 years
WHAT IS A 'SET'?
My first disagreement: By definition, a set is to failure (or when you feel you can't do one more full repetition). If it is not to failure, it is not a set.
You're kidding, right? A set is a series of reps- there's no distinction based on momentary muscular failure.
There are similar techniques offered by others that do not take set to failoure.
The most distinguished researchers with American Society of Sports Medicine has called those 'sets' as 'warm ups', 'wastage of time', and resulting in little benefit.
Hmmm....

I will take next point in my next thread.
Should be a real gem.

Bro you are clueless

 

[redguru]

Burn the troll.

You made no point, here, Lonetree. You merely told us that you don't think a set is a set. I think you need a fresh set of 'distinguished researchers' since your current crop is rubbish.

I hope you're not planning to spam us with a series of these vacuous threads.

LOL, BW, why don't you tell us how you really feel.

I have a lot more respect for Bill Starr than some newb troll.

 

[hangclean]

5x5 works for some people. Just like any other training method.

 

[Kane Fan]

ok between his posting 2 more threads and not responding in this one or the third one (I didn't read all of the second one) I'm pretty sure he's a troll
who do we alert?
the last thing the board needs is 'why to throw away a good training program part four' because I said so !

 

[perp69]

All I know is I have made more progress and gains with the 5X5 than any program I have previously done. Why it works and is it outdate? I don't know but it works and works well and I will continue to use it.

Everyone is different and responds differently to the same programs. So all I can say is if it doesn't work for you then do something else but that is no reason debunk a good training routine though.

 

[blut wump]

Even if the reason is just to bring all the 5x5ers out of the woodwork, it is a little rude.

 

[H_T_]

i approve of the 5x5.

 

[pwrhngry]

Hey, yall, I know I kindof am late catching this thread but I feel like I just gotta reply to this one.
For 18 months I trained my ass off. # way split,3 on 1 off, every single set to failure, 15 sets per body part, the whole works guys. A classic Arnold, super high volume approach based purely on ignorance. And what did I get from it you ask? A super low bodyfat, and strength to match!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And 5 weeks ago I started the Bill Starr 5x5. I have since gained 7 pounds, 1 inch on my puny 20 inch thighs 3/8 of an inch on my puny 13 inch bicepts and 3/4 of an inch on my puny 38 inch chest. My waist has stayed at 30 inches, Im 5'11'' by the way at 158pounds now. Most importantly, I have gained 25 POUNDS ON SQUATS, 15 ON BENCH, 20 ON D.L, AND 30+ ON ROWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now the weights I lift are toys compared to most of you guys who have been at this for years, along with a super low body fat which is slowing my strength down, but even considering these factors, in fact even more so because of them, I am perfect proof of the effectiveness of the 5x5. I have gotten more strength, and growth in 5 weeks on the 5x5 than I got in 18 MONTHS of the super high volume, train to failure crap. Man I didnt believe in it either until I started putting up squats that had my ass stapled to the floor a month ago! If you doubt that the 5x5 kicks ass, give it 1 run, YOU WILL BECOME A BELIEVER!!!!!!! By the way, Im no trainer, or scientist. Im just a skinny little shit who is finally getting stronger. If Im getting these results on a program that needs "thrown out" tell me where you throw it so I can retrieve it and keep on!!!!!!!! Thanks guys just my 2c, by the way I have a journal on here ,lonetree, check out the numbers. They arent big like most of thses guys, but guess what. After almost 2 years of busting my ass going to failure and working out 6 days a week with almost no gains, its sure as hell nice to add 5 pounds a week to all my lifts!

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

I'm with you pwrhngry. I'm truly only a few weeks into my 5x5's (single factor) and my progression and body change is pretty drastic. If my pace keeps up by december I will be hitting 200 for reps on bench and max bench will be past 225, a long time goal for me. I still only weigh 138, but just wednesday my workset deadlift surpassed my weight (if this isnt an improvement in strength i dont know what is). I hope that my gains can stay close to linear for 3 or 4 months, but when they do taper off then the dual factor will be waiting with open arms.

 

[blut wump]

Those open arms on the DF are coated with acid. Hold onto the SF as long as you can continue to make gains on it.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

LOL!! yeah, im gonna milk it for as long as possible.

 

[Kane Fan]

how is single set up compared to dual

 

[JL_204]

how is single set up compared to dual

Theres a description in the mother thread.

 

[Kane Fan]

which mother thread
the one about df from madcow or the one about singlefactor 5x5 of someone's routine

 

[anotherbutters]

This mother thread:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375215

It contains links to the DF and SF 5x5 so you can see how they're set up. SF is based on supercompensation, which means lifting heavier from week to week and works best for beginners. DF is based on fitness fatigue theory, where you manipulate volume to build up and recover from fatigue whilst increasing the weights, which is slower, but necessary once you've been working out for a year or two and the SF has stopped working.

There are lots of good links from the mother thread. Read until you can't read any more!

 

[HAPPYKC]

Alternate your method.

I currently train 6 days a week using max volume, training to failure sets.
I also alternate to the 5x5 program every 12 weeks.
They both seem to compliment one another, the 5x5 program seems to give me nice strength increase, which carries over to my 6 days, train to failure program.
I am 120 kg (264 pounds for you Americans 8)) 11-12% bodyfat. I am natural but do take daily B-12 injections to increase my red blood cell count, as well as anti-estrogents to increase my test levels, and large amounts of creatine 8). I am gaining more than my friends who use steriods, but it could be just the way I train and eat 8).

Cycle your training and eat big.