Thread for Nelson... Can you clear up this clomid issue once and for all. PLEASE!!

[TerminatorX]

Hi bros, and hi Nelson,

I am soon going to be going into therapy soon and since it is my first cycle, I have used this site for invaluable info from all different types of people. However, there seems to be this massive difference in opinion on the use of clomid post-AAS. I was going to follow the 300mg day1, 100mg, 2-8, and 50mg until 21. However, with all these people saying how shit they feel.... it seems like a male form of PMS. So to everybody and particularly Nelson is there any clinically based data that supports or condones the use of clomid for recovery?? And also if using proviron for therapy, at what dose and for how long should someone use it for??? I am currently running it at 25mg/day with 40mg dB as an arom. inhibitor..

Contributions will be greatfully received.

Later.

 

[satchboogie]

nelson...

expect these about once every 2-3 weeks.

dude... i'm not nelson but i'm sure he'll be more than glad to get into much detail regarding his well-known clomid issue.

 

[silver_shadow]

i'm new to this board- i've been reading quite alot abt nelson and his post-cycle theory. i have always done clomid post-cycle just like TerminatorX described. i have never had to use any anti-e's during a cycle (touch on wood) and never had those bitch mood symptoms that many other bros suffer from. but now since there seems to be some debate on this even i would like to know what the other bros think between clomid nolva and a-dex. in some post i read that some research shows a-dex to be best, some say nolva and some swear by clomid. somewhere else, i have read that femara is better than all these. so what do u bros think- and how would u run nolva or a-dex? does anyone know which has the shortest half-life?

 

[_Yossarian_]

the truth is that there will never be a definitive answer as to what is best for everyone. Its all about individual trial and error. If clomid gets you back online quickly with minimal sides, than stick with it.

 

[manny78]

not again....

 

[Nelson Montana]

How can I answer this without the thread becoming WW VII?

This is the deal: In general, I believe all anti-e's can be avoided with a sensible cycle. Keep Proviron on hand if you're sensitive to gyno or a-dex if you're REALLY sensitive to gyno. 500 mgs of Chyrsin will even wrok well enough for a lot of people.

Okay...clomid. Hate it. Hate it. Hate it. Why? Here's the deal:

Clomid is an estrogen. It works by occupying e receptors which in turn (in theory) disallows estrogen to form. The problem is, it doesn't work very well very often and not at all in a lot of people. In many cases it simply adds more e resulting in...well, symptoms of excess estrogen -- moodiness, weepiness, decreased libido etc.

Even in cases where it does lower e, it can lower e too much, resulting in acne, a higher LDL and decreased libido.

And Clomid also raises SHBG.

I have yet to read a study on Clomid's ability to increase testosterone that was convincing. The results are either from some cheesy test group, or done on a guy who was on steroids for 5 years or (my favorite) a 3 month course of clomid on a group of people recovering from a cycle showing that after the end of the 3 month period their T was higher than when they first got off steroids. (duh) I have read everal studies that show Clomid reduces FSH resulting in lowered sperm density.

Also, the notion that lowered e will increase T isn't really very well founded.

There are howver, people who will swear it worked for them, but you must exclude at least half of them since they never cycled without it. How do they know it worked?

Plus,

Clomid reduces IGF-1

Too low of an estrogen level will hinder gains.

And even if Clomid works for you, you will most likely crash after cesstation of use.
And let's not forget those who think it's great yet they have gyno! That's like the pregnant woman saying how great the disphragm works! In fact, there were far less cases of gyno prior to its popularity than afterward. Look at guys from the 60's and early 70's. No gyno.

And BTW: Even most of todays pros dont use Clomid anymore.

So all in all, this is why I sincerely believe CLOMID BLOWS!!!

Now please refer everyone who asks the same question over the course of the next year to this thread.

 

[TerminatorX]

Oh yes.. yess. yesssssss

yes again

 

[Nelson Montana]

STICKY!

Pleeeeeese?

 

[drrman]

i'll agree with NM here, clomid does blow or me anyways, not sure exactly why on the chemical level, but as for results/reactions, its a waste of time

 

[TerminatorX]

Cheers Nelson

Cheers Nelson for your reply... really appreciate it.

So last question...

What is does your recovery look like... amounts and how long???

Thanks again dude.

Karma be praised and sent to you...

 

[DrJMW]

Go with a tried and true recovery cycle:

Weeks one thru three
2,000 U of HCG, IM, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday
20mg Nolvadex daily.

Weeks four thru six
20mg Nolvadex daily only.

Only add Clomid 50mg daily, paralleling Nolvadex, if you are coming off a heavy, prolonged cycle. This cycle may need to be repeated under certain circumstances--like non-recovery the first time through. I have an article--in BMP format--that clearly explains the rationale. I do not know how to post this as an attachment.

 

[DeepZenPill]

Even in cases where it does lower e, it can lower e too much, resulting in acne, a higher LDL and decreased libido.

No flame, but you need to stop making this part of your argument. Clomid doesn't lower circulating estrogen, and this has been stated a bunch of times.

I agree with the rest of your views on clomid though. If I never read your posts on it, I would've just continued to force myself through that hell after every cycle.

 

[TerminatorX]

Cheers Dr JMW,

I really needed a doc in the house

Seriously tho... karma to u bro

 

[DeepZenPill]

Oh, and I'm not refuting the statement that it causes acne, high LDL and kills libido. Just the lowering E part.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Go with a tried and true recovery cycle:

Weeks one thru three
2,000 U of HCG, IM, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday
20mg Nolvadex daily.

Weeks four thru six
20mg Nolvadex daily only.

Only add Clomid 50mg daily, paralleling Nolvadex, if you are coming off a heavy, prolonged cycle. This cycle may need to be repeated under certain circumstances--like non-recovery the first time through. I have an article--in BMP format--that clearly explains the rationale. I do not know how to post this as an attachment.

Not so tried and true considering nolva is very similar to Clomid and produces the same effects in many people.

Deep Zen, maybe "lowering" wasn't the best choice," preventing the production of" or "antagonizing" or "avoid aroatization of" estrogen is perhaps more accurate. It still amounts to less estrogen and that isn't necessarily a good thing. But again, the oposite is usually the case.

I've said it before; At best, Clomid is a crap shoot.

 

[DrJMW]

Llewellyn and Mooney and Vergel have suggested the HCG/Nolvadex combo for quite some time. I have found that the recovery cycle works. Tough to argue with what works. I am sure that your recovery cycle works as well, or you wouldn't be divulging it. As always, there is more than one way to skin a cat!

 

[The Terminator]

It still amounts to less estrogen and that isn't necessarily a good thing.

If your E levels are above normal (or even normal for that matter) clomid will not suppress them, it will only occupy the ER. (this does not change your circulating E levels at all...)

For me clomid increases testicular size rapidly and seems to increase my sex drive with very minimal other side effects...I'll stick with it.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Llewellyn and Mooney and Vergel have suggested the HCG/Nolvadex combo for quite some time. I have found that the recovery cycle works. Tough to argue with what works. I am sure that your recovery cycle works as well, or you wouldn't be divulging it. As always, there is more than one way to skin a cat!

Absolutely! Which is why I advise against clomid. If there are other methods, why use something so "chancey"?

As I'm sure you know, HCG may aid in recovery but it is not an anti-aromatase.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

In any event, I have to agree with Nelson on clomid, as I've said before. It doesn't work well for me, and causes moodiness, crying, and other feminine personality traits. Arimidex on the other hand, doesn't cause these problems for me, and has been shown to elevate testosterone to above normal levels in studies healthy men. It isn't a far fetched guess that it may help those with a suppressed htpa as well. In any event, Nelson I would like to know your opinion on arimidex post cycle as well as why it would or wouldn't increase testosterone production post cycle.

 

[Juice Authority]

Absolutely! Which is why I advise against clomid. If there are other methods, why use something so "chancey"?

As I'm sure you know, HCG may aid in recovery but it is not an anti-aromatase.

Nelson -

I wasn't going to touch this thread but since you asked me to chime in and sare my recent experience with clomid I will.

As some of you know I finished up with a very heavy androgen based cycle a few months back. In total I was running about 2g's a week of various AAS compounds which consisted of the following:

EQ - 400mg's
Test Enan - 750mg's
Test Prop - 300mg's
Tren - 700mg's
Winstrol 500-700mg's (weeks 1-6)

I crashed pretty hard post-cycle and jsut recently got back in the gym (3 months later). Post cycle recovery consisted of the following:

Clomid - (2 weeks after the last shot of Test Enan) - 150mg's ed for two weeks, 100mg's ed for the following 2 weeks

Nolva - 80mg's First day, 40mg's the following two weeks and 20mg's the following two weeks

Arimidex - 1g Eod

HCG - Starting the last week fo the cycle:

3000/3000/1500/1500/1000IU's - every 5 days

I also ran a low dose of Nolva (20mg's ed)

 

[satchboogie]

juice...

after your cycle, you took 3 months off the gym????

if thats the picture, could you tell us a bit more on your body composition now?

i'm interested to find out if you lost all your gains, lost some gains, lost gains and some.

thanks dude.

 

[Iron Gator]

Nelson... are you saying that using clomid could cause gyno? Not perhaps while you are taking it but as a rebound effect. That could explain a lot.

I used HCG, Nova, and clomid to come off a 12 week enanthate/fina cycle. I had none of the weepy feelings, but I did get acne post cycle. Then about 3 months later I got gyno symptoms, itchy, puffy nips and swelling. I started taking nolva again and bought some andractim which worked like a charm.

any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Nelson Montana]

I don't know of any evidence that Clomid may actually cause gyno but I know people who have used it and gotten gyno. Whether that was the result of it simply not working as an anti-aromatase or what, I'm not sure.

To answer the question regared a-dex, yes it is superior to Clomid but can work too well. Even at low dosages estrodiol levels can drop to near zero, which is very unhealthy.

 

[Juice Authority]

juice...

after your cycle, you took 3 months off the gym????

if thats the picture, could you tell us a bit more on your body composition now?

i'm interested to find out if you lost all your gains, lost some gains, lost gains and some.

thanks dude.

2 months but bad enough. No, I didn't didn't lose all the gains but I will never stack that many drugs again in a cycle. When you crash like that it makes the cycle a total waste.

 

[TerminatorX]

So Nelson what would you run post cycle...

How about 25mg Proviron ED for 3 weeks
20g creatine (PS I know this does not help HPTA)
1g Trib ED
1g Avena ED
1g Maca ED
ZMA as directed
1g Milk thistle to recover liver after orals

Is there anything you would do differently???

 

[The Terminator]

So Nelson what would you run post cycle...

How about 25mg Proviron ED for 3 weeks
20g creatine (PS I know this does not help HPTA)
1g Trib ED
1g Avena ED
1g Maca ED
ZMA as directed
1g Milk thistle to recover liver after orals

Is there anything you would do differently???

Yes, add in clomid and nolva with it. They are so inexpensive, why would you even want to risk any more down time (optimal hormone production wise) after busting your ass during the cycle only to lose it post cycle because you could not get your natural test up to fast enough...
Also I would up the Avena dosage (to 2 g/day), drop the milk thistle, and possibly the proviron as well...

 

[Goldprospector]

I like this article when it comes to "anti-E's" and or post cycle therapy. I have talked to a cousin pharmasist, a Mom nurse, and a Doc about this...They pretty much agree with what is said here.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catnolv.htm

 

[TerminatorX]

Cheers Term

Cheers Term for the info...

Respect dude.

 

[Nelson Montana]

So the final conclusion is, use Clomid.


Well, that was a waste of a thread.

 

[DrJMW]

Absolutely! Which is why I advise against clomid. If there are other methods, why use something so "chancey"?

As I'm sure you know, HCG may aid in recovery but it is not an anti-aromatase.

That is why Nolvadex is the ideal additive. It is an effective antiestrogen and it stimulates LH secretion. HCG immediately stimulates testos production and gives size to the testes--bypassing the shut-down leg of the HPTA. The amount of conversion to estrogen is much lower during recovery than during the AAS cycle, so Nolvadex and the liver can handle the excess estrogen.

 

[TerminatorX]

Nelson, no wastage here bro...

It is good to get different perspectives on a problem from different people who each have their personal experiences.. Since I have not had my first experience with recovery yet as I have not yet completed my cycle, I feel that it is good to place feelers out and to find out everything I can so that I and others can make informed decisions...

Anyhow, you have still not posted what you would call an ideal recovery

Take it easy, bro.

Peace

 

[quez82]

shit im still confused

 

[Deleted member 33117]

Nelson, right, having estrogen levels that are too low can wreak havoc on one's blood lipid profile, however, short term use post cycle to help elevate test production would seem to be a good trade off. After coming off of the a-dex your blood lipids return to normal. Your thoughts on this?

 

[The Terminator]

Nelson, right, having estrogen levels that are too low can wreak havoc on one's blood lipid profile, however, short term use post cycle to help elevate test production would seem to be a good trade off. After coming off of the a-dex your blood lipids return to normal. Your thoughts on this?

Short term use of an aromatose inhibitor post cycle will do little to restore natural test levels, as they do not promote the stimulation of LH or FSH...(this is why clomid and/or nolva are the superior options at that time)