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The Hall of Shame - Bookies Gone Bad

George Spellwin

George Spellwin

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We'll make this a sticky called "The Hall of Shame" for Bookies who refuse to settle their bets - keeping members from getting paid - and for Bookies whose Karma goes into negative territory when they settle bets.
 
george a lot of questions need to be answered and i cant make a post in here so ill just post in this thread.

1. is there no juice involved in the betting for the bookie? if there is no juice what is going to stop me from betting both sides if its a no lose situation betting wise i.e. ( one side is even money 1-1, the other side is 2-1.) there needs to be juice for the bookie imo. the standard is 10% (bet 11 to win 10)

2. how is the bet transferred? through the karma store or some other way? if its transferred through the k store you (ef) always take a chunk of it, up to 30% from non members. lets say it is transferred through the k store, if i win 1000k and the plat member donates 1000 your store will take 100 and i will only get 900 of it. if i were to lose and donated 1000 your store would take 300 and the bookie would only get 700. transfers through the store are not fair imo.

3. what are you doing about members not being able to cover their bets? i have already seen one guy bet 800 when he only has 150 total k points (imo this is scum trying to do that and he should dealt with swifty and the punishment so severe that his own children wont recognize him).
Also swole (a bookie) has bets out there that he cannot cover in the fb draft, IF the 15-1 payout comes through against him, now i know hes NOT trying to cheat the system, but there is already over 2000 k pts bet on the 15-1 bet and if it comes through he has to come up with 30000k pts plus, and he only has around 10000 now.

4. is there a limit on how much you can bet?
 
hamstershaver said:
3. what are you doing about members not being able to cover their bets? i have already seen one guy bet 800 when he only has 150 total k points (imo this is scum trying to do that and he should dealt with swifty and the punishment so severe that his own children wont recognize him).
Also swole (a bookie) has bets out there that he cannot cover in the fb draft, IF the 15-1 payout comes through against him, now i know hes NOT trying to cheat the system, but there is already over 2000 k pts bet on the 15-1 bet and if it comes through he has to come up with 30000k pts plus, and he only has around 10000 now.
Click to expand...

Hammy

If the 15:1 bet comes through, I would without a doubt purchase the $100 in Karma points to cover my ass. The actual odds the 49ers will draft someone not listed on that bet is probably more like 10000:1.

I think the person who wagered more K than they have will be in red for a long time.
 
s w o l e said:
Hammy

If the 15:1 bet comes through, I would without a doubt purchase the $100 in Karma points to cover my ass. The actual odds the 49ers will draft someone not listed on that bet is probably more like 10000:1.

I think the person who wagered more K than they have will be in red for a long time.
Click to expand...
like i said, i know you arent trying to cheat, but this is definately going to happen a lot when it comes to big odds being laid down, not many people have a lot of karma, and most will not be able to cover large odd bets
 
so let me get it straight...

if a bet is 1:1 ratio..
and somebody bets 1000 karma points and wins the bet..
what happens exactly??
 
hamstershaver said:
george a lot of questions need to be answered and i cant make a post in here so ill just post in this thread.

1. is there no juice involved in the betting for the bookie? if there is no juice what is going to stop me from betting both sides if its a no lose situation betting wise i.e. ( one side is even money 1-1, the other side is 2-1.) there needs to be juice for the bookie imo. the standard is 10% (bet 11 to win 10)

2. how is the bet transferred? through the karma store or some other way? if its transferred through the k store you (ef) always take a chunk of it, up to 30% from non members. lets say it is transferred through the k store, if i win 1000k and the plat member donates 1000 your store will take 100 and i will only get 900 of it. if i were to lose and donated 1000 your store would take 300 and the bookie would only get 700. transfers through the store are not fair imo.

3. what are you doing about members not being able to cover their bets? i have already seen one guy bet 800 when he only has 150 total k points (imo this is scum trying to do that and he should dealt with swifty and the punishment so severe that his own children wont recognize him).
Also swole (a bookie) has bets out there that he cannot cover in the fb draft, IF the 15-1 payout comes through against him, now i know hes NOT trying to cheat the system, but there is already over 2000 k pts bet on the 15-1 bet and if it comes through he has to come up with 30000k pts plus, and he only has around 10000 now.

4. is there a limit on how much you can bet?
Click to expand...


1. Right now, you can only bet one side and the bookie's only incentive is that he keeps the losers' karma. Should we do things differently?

2. The transfers go from the bettor to the bookie at the time the bets are placed. The bets are paid when the bookie (or a mod) settled the event. Then the Karma is paid out of the bookie's account. If you become a Platinum Member, the transfers that you make in the Karma Store are much cheaper. Plus, you can be a bookie too!

3. You are not supposed to be able to bet more Karma than you have. If you accept bets for more karma than you have and lose your karma goes negative. We will probably ask Plats to buy Karma to bring their negative accounts positive.

4. Right now, there is a 1000 karma limit, but we are going to rework this so that the limit is set by the bookie.
 
George Spellwin said:
2. The transfers go from the bettor to the bookie at the time the bets are placed. The bets are paid when the bookie (or a mod) settled the event. Then the Karma is paid out of the bookie's account. If you become a Platinum Member, the transfers that you make in the Karma Store are much cheaper. Plus, you can be a bookie too!
Click to expand...
so you are saying if i made a 1000 pt bet the 1000pts is taken out of my account at the time of the bet and transferred to the bookies account? (am i correct in this what you are saying?)
that seems fine to me, thats how it is done in vegas
so on a 3-1 odds bet if the bookie already has your 1000pt bet that you have given him the payout back to you if you win should be 4000k pts (3000pts for the win plus your 1000pt original bet returned)
1-1 = 2000 (1000pt win + your 1000 original returned)
2-1 = 3000 (2000pt win + your 1000 original returned) etc. etc. etc.

now if i am correct in understanding you that the bookie gets your bet transferred into his account at the time you make the bet i assume there is someway you can include "juice" into the system which is what is done at all sports books

"juice" would only apply to bets with 2 teams involved where the odds were 1-1 on both sides or there was a point spread involved and you take one team or the other (patriots -6 over the dolphins for example) i am sure there will be A LOT of pt spread betting once fb starts. So if you liked the patriots -6 you would take them but give the bookie "juice" for taking your bet
the standard juice is 10% of your bet which is how bookies make money
so if you wanted to win 1000 you would need to bet 1100 (the extra 100 is the 10% juice), in other words bet 1100, and if you win, your return will be 2100 (your 1100 bet returned + the 1000 you win). if you lose, you lose 1100.

linesmakers try to make lines so that the public bets games right down the middle (half the money gets bet on one team, the other half on the other team) vegas wins this way because they collect the juice

To give an example of a perfect world for vegas and juice lets say half the money on a game is on one team and half on the other (a total of 220,000 was bet on the game 110,000 on each side) well with juice the gamblers have to bet 110,000 to win 100,000. Vegas wont care which side wins because they have to pay out 100,000 to the winner but they collect 110,000 from the side that loses (a profit of 10,000 the "juice"), i hope this makes sense its a little difficult to explain

i dont even know if you could incorporate juice into the system, but its something to think about
 
now I understand why my karma is going up beyond what's been given me.
I'm automatically banking bet karma.
then when the event settles I payout the win at the odds plus I suppose the amount of the original wager.
e.g. if someone wagers 1000 at 2-1 and wins
I payout 3000?
 
4everhung said:
if someone wagers 1000 at 2-1 and wins
I payout 3000?
Click to expand...

yes

I have a 1:1 bet going which is simply double the original bet amount should it come through.
 
4everhung said:
now I understand why my karma is going up beyond what's been given me.
I'm automatically banking bet karma.
then when the event settles I payout the win at the odds plus I suppose the amount of the original wager.
e.g. if someone wagers 1000 at 2-1 and wins
I payout 3000?
Click to expand...
yes exactly since you are getting the bet beforehand
im glad it its like that
and yes you would payback 3k if you lost the bet
nothing if you win since the k is already in your account, this is good since you dont have to hunt down welches that bet and wont pay you if they lose
now if somehow we can get juice involved it will be perfect
 
i would assume this also means that you cant bet more k than you have in your account since it is transferred to the bookie at the time of the bet, thats also good, and i apologize to the guy i said was betting more than he had i didnt realize the karma went to the bookie at the time of the bet.
 
hamstershaver said:
so you are saying if i made a 1000 pt bet the 1000pts is taken out of my account at the time of the bet and transferred to the bookies account? (am i correct in this what you are saying?)
that seems fine to me, thats how it is done in vegas
so on a 3-1 odds bet if the bookie already has your 1000pt bet that you have given him the payout back to you if you win should be 4000k pts (3000pts for the win plus your 1000pt original bet returned)
1-1 = 2000 (1000pt win + your 1000 original returned)
2-1 = 3000 (2000pt win + your 1000 original returned) etc. etc. etc.

now if i am correct in understanding you that the bookie gets your bet transferred into his account at the time you make the bet i assume there is someway you can include "juice" into the system which is what is done at all sports books

"juice" would only apply to bets with 2 teams involved where the odds were 1-1 on both sides or there was a point spread involved and you take one team or the other (patriots -6 over the dolphins for example) i am sure there will be A LOT of pt spread betting once fb starts. So if you liked the patriots -6 you would take them but give the bookie "juice" for taking your bet
the standard juice is 10% of your bet which is how bookies make money
so if you wanted to win 1000 you would need to bet 1100 (the extra 100 is the 10% juice), in other words bet 1100, and if you win, your return will be 2100 (your 1100 bet returned + the 1000 you win). if you lose, you lose 1100.

linesmakers try to make lines so that the public bets games right down the middle (half the money gets bet on one team, the other half on the other team) vegas wins this way because they collect the juice

To give an example of a perfect world for vegas and juice lets say half the money on a game is on one team and half on the other (a total of 220,000 was bet on the game 110,000 on each side) well with juice the gamblers have to bet 110,000 to win 100,000. Vegas wont care which side wins because they have to pay out 100,000 to the winner but they collect 110,000 from the side that loses (a profit of 10,000 the "juice"), i hope this makes sense its a little difficult to explain

i dont even know if you could incorporate juice into the system, but its something to think about
Click to expand...


This is a great post Hammy,

I'm learning more about bookmaking too. I'm a blackjack player after all.

We could build Juice into the system, but as you can imagine, there's a cost to all new features. We're working on a Poker Room, more things to buy in the Karma Store, and much more, but we do need to turn a profit from all this.

Can you think of ways we can make more money from the Karma Bookie? We've invested a lot in our new features and if we saw more return from them, we can further develop them.
 
George Spellwin said:
This is a great post Hammy,

I'm learning more about bookmaking too. I'm a blackjack player after all.

We could build Juice into the system, but as you can imagine, there's a cost to all new features. We're working on a Poker Room, more things to buy in the Karma Store, and much more, but we do need to turn a profit from all this.

Can you think of ways we can make more money from the Karma Bookie? We've invested a lot in our new features and if we saw more return from them, we can further develop them.
Click to expand...
i really cant think of a way to make money off the karma bookie room, although i do hope once you make the hold em room it can turn a profit.
like i told you before i play poker at ultimate bet and people love to play poker.
i play almost exclusively with play chips there and ub gives your account 2000 play chips to start.
with time and good poker you can really build up your play chip account, mine is now at about 50 million.
they have a lot of bigger play tables at ub where the ante is 1000-2000 and the pots usually get up to about 75,000 every hand. in order to play these tables you need a lot of chips in your account.
and what some players would do after they got a good amount of chips is they would go sell them at ebay and you would be surprised how many people bought them. they would usually sell like 100,000 up to 1,000,000 at a time.
ub frowned on this and was able to stop people from doing it but they werent smart enough to make their own store at the ub site and have people buy play chips from them directly. why they dont do this is beyond me.
i think seeing this you may be able to get people to buy karma from your store in order to play at your tables if you are going to gamble with karma and not just make only real money tables. its at least something to think about
 
i failed to mention how the ebay play chip selling worked.
once someone bought the chips, the seller would transfer them into the buyers account.
they have a chip transfer system set up there like your karma transfer system here, although ub doesnt take a percentage of the transfer.
 
hamstershaver said:
i really cant think of a way to make money off the karma bookie room, although i do hope once you make the hold em room it can turn a profit.
like i told you before i play poker at ultimate bet and people love to play poker.
i play almost exclusively with play chips there and ub gives your account 2000 play chips to start.
with time and good poker you can really build up your play chip account, mine is now at about 50 million.
they have a lot of bigger play tables at ub where the ante is 1000-2000 and the pots usually get up to about 75,000 every hand. in order to play these tables you need a lot of chips in your account.
and what some players would do after they got a good amount of chips is they would go sell them at ebay and you would be surprised how many people bought them. they would usually sell like 100,000 up to 1,000,000 at a time.
ub frowned on this and was able to stop people from doing it but they werent smart enough to make their own store at the ub site and have people buy play chips from them directly. why they dont do this is beyond me.
i think seeing this you may be able to get people to buy karma from your store in order to play at your tables if you are going to gamble with karma and not just make only real money tables. its at least something to think about
Click to expand...
it's part of the attraction of the site
he can make money by neccesitating a bookmaker to buy karma to cover bets
as it is if "the field" wins in the nascar subway 500 at 35-1 I have two 1K bets to cover
-70000 K would put me in the red and then I need to buy karma
albeit though this outcome is unlikely
 
I guess we can drop chase152's name on this thread. Kid's in red. Deep.
 
George Spellwin said:
This is a great post Hammy,

I'm learning more about bookmaking too. I'm a blackjack player after all.

We could build Juice into the system, but as you can imagine, there's a cost to all new features. We're working on a Poker Room, more things to buy in the Karma Store, and much more, but we do need to turn a profit from all this.

Can you think of ways we can make more money from the Karma Bookie? We've invested a lot in our new features and if we saw more return from them, we can further develop them.
Click to expand...



ABSOLUTELY, You can make more money!!! Juice should be mandatory!!!!


ALL LOSSES simply add 10% to the bettors bet and he/she would owe this
ALL Wins are wins
ALL TIES are pushes---even money......

EVERYONE DOES 10% JUICE----All of the bettors out there (including me) will have to pay 10% more on losses......In reality, the house ALWAYS WINS in the LONG HAUL.....and the more ALL THE BETTORS have to pay up with karma, the MORE KARMA (IN THE LONG HAUL) THAT ALL OF THE BETTORS WILL BE BUYING!!!! (During football season, I will be wagering SO MUCH KARMA---(I will probably end up supporting the site for an entire month just by myself with all of my losses---LOL)



Simple Economics (and former "karma" bookie in college---many, many years ago)
 
I'm glad you'll be betting NFL like a crackhead, because the amount of events I'm going to have will make your head spin :evil: I'd like to encorporate a better system than simply setting house-favored odds, maybe George can hook us up somehow.
 
swole said:
I'm glad you'll be betting NFL like a crackhead, because the amount of events I'm going to have will make your head spin :evil: I'd like to encorporate a better system than simply setting house-favored odds, maybe George can hook us up somehow.
Click to expand...


Incorporate simply setting house-favored odds??????

I mean its very common outside of Vegas such as never having a half pt on an OVER/Under always a real number, etc......but that is the same as the book now gambling......

The true standard for success---is guaranteed FUNDS coming in......THE GOLDEN RULE is to keep 1 million people betting on the FAV. and 1 million betting on the DOG..----THEN the BOOK doesnt give a crap who wins/loses----EITHER WAY SOMEBODY IS PAYING FOR 100,000 EXTRA KARMA (due to the 10% VIG (juice)).......You can achieve this by properly adjusting the line plus add the extra money (karma buying) with the 2 team dips, 3 & 4 team teasers, the 2-10 team Parlays, ETC> ETC>---



One question though---on a straight line in the NFL---how are you going to set house favored odds???? Why wouldnt I bet with the House then??????
 
swole said:
I'm glad you'll be betting NFL like a crackhead, because the amount of events I'm going to have will make your head spin :evil: I'd like to encorporate a better system than simply setting house-favored odds, maybe George can hook us up somehow.
Click to expand...
you ganna be doing anny over under bets.I think the pats vs radaers game is going to be a very high scoring game.
 
JohnRambo said:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=464693
Click to expand...
there was nothing wrong except you lost your k dude why u whining you made the bet nobody forced you to place it..... but what do i know u been here longer than me........ o.k divide the chips again d_o_c_ lets play best 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 5 or 5 out of 7 or oh what the hell u get the message hahahaahhahhaha this is entertainment to a bored guy
 
Last edited:
George Spellwin said:
This is a great post Hammy,

I'm learning more about bookmaking too. I'm a blackjack player after all.

We could build Juice into the system, but as you can imagine, there's a cost to all new features. We're working on a Poker Room, more things to buy in the Karma Store, and much more, but we do need to turn a profit from all this.

Can you think of ways we can make more money from the Karma Bookie? We've invested a lot in our new features and if we saw more return from them, we can further develop them.
Click to expand...

I've done more for this site than any individual
this forum is the diamond
 
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