Suston & CCJ - Come to my rescue

[coolcolj]

He agrees with DC, there.

No, I don't see it. There is no power work in DC!
slow eccentrics actually decreases power...

"...Another major problem with strength work is it will teach your system to hold onto tension too long. As a sprinter this can be dangerous. As you “spring” down the track you don’t want to be wasting energy because your muscles won't relax when they need to relax because this will cause you to (a) hit a wall towards the end of the race and (b) produce less power per positive and negative contraction stroke (remember what we said about the relationship between power absorption and power production). A simple way to remember this concept is to know that your reactive ability will be greater following a state of relaxation than a state of tension..."

What is the above saying? The entire last line, really. Reactive ability will be greater following a state of relaxation than one of tension? Is that like the whole "don't make a solid fist until you're about to land the punch" thing? You know, keeping the hand "loose" until the strike and all?

Well basicly, when you lift heavy weights, the type of contraction used is a long duration and slow release type over 1 sec usually. The body/CNS adapts to how it's being asked to contract.
With his example of someone sprinting, think about the rate of contraction when running. You will hit 4-5 strides per sec, that means you muscles have to contract and relax 4-5 times each stride in 0.25 secs or less. If your CNS is adapted to contracting for 1sec at a time and a slow relaxation, your sure as hell not going to be sprinting too well, and one reason why many gym rats pull hammies and such when they do try, because their muscles are still tensed when the foot lands when it should be relaxed. Plus it wastes energy, you can last a lot longer the more often your msucles are relaxed than contracting.

What he is saying is that if the muscle is relaxed entering into the stretch reflex phase, it will generate more power and a faster contraction. You can see this when doing plyo pushups against a bench. When you land relaxed you can fire out quicker back up, vs when you land with your arms and chest tensed --> no bounce
I would say that would apply to your example of the fist, since a tight fist will induce tension in the arms. I know from my past boxing experience that is teh case.

And finally, I read it all and I'm going to go through it again in an hour to try and grasp more of it because I'm not following some of the vocabulary in there (long day and I have music on some I'm half-focused), but the last line basically talks about how training for both at the same time will kind've slow down your potential gains in either...so what's best? To train for one, then the other? Or will that just ruin you anyway?

I would think strength work, followed by speed work in the future. You know, the entire "building a base" deal, then following up that with tweaking of your speed and RFD and such.

Well training for strength will improve explosiveness, and training for strength speed will improve strength and explosiveness. Whilst training for speed strength will improve strength speed and general quickness. But doing any of these in isolation will get you nowhere after a point in time. You have to figure what you goal is and work your weakness.

Point is, you will get stronger faster if you work on strength a little bit and strength speed a lot, if your strong (have good strain ability) but lack ability to push things fast. And vice versa if your fast, but lack ability to strain --> working more on strain and less on strength speed will get you stronger faster
Every person is different in their neural makeup, and you need to design your training to suit. You can't use cookie cutter schemes and expect to make optimal progress.

Then there comes a point in time when you your no longer training for powerlifter type strength ie, most athletes, the strength work takes a back seat. If you can't apply your strength quickly and relax just as fast, it's useless. As long as power levels keep increasing with speed strength and strength speed work, you never need to worry about strength work. Only when you have plateaued then you go back and gain some more strength, but still maintaing your speed etc.
But strength speed work will eventually get over 75% of your strength levels anyway, so it itself will help increase your strength

In the end it's all about training the CNS, forget about muscles, because the CNS is the controller. You need to program the right software into it.
The elite power athletes all share one thing, a very fast and effcient CNS. Muscle fiber type and size doesn't rate much.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Great response, definitely answered my questions. I confused power and strength gains with the whole DC training remark. I think the same still applies, generally.

Anyway, what would examples of strength-speed and speed-strength work be? Sorry for all the questions, I just want to get this right, and while the article was very helpful, I didn't see any prime examples of how to go about training each. I see percentages and such, but how to go about finding your AW-1RMs and what exercises to use when etc. just baffles me.

I'll pick it up in time, I just have to start researching this stuff now.

 

[coolcolj]

Anyway, what would examples of strength-speed and speed-strength work be? Sorry for all the questions, I just want to get this right, and while the article was very helpful, I didn't see any prime examples of how to go about training each. I see percentages and such, but how to go about finding your AW-1RMs and what exercises to use when etc. just baffles me.

I'll pick it up in time, I just have to start researching this stuff now.

Each type is basicly to do with the quality of contraction speed and load


strength speed is what its name applies, more on the strength side but with speed. Think speed squats, reactive squats, olys etc. Moving moderate to moderate-heavy loads fast

Speed strength is more reactive and on the lighter side, where speed is the more dominant factor. Ie jumpsquats, plyo pushups, bench throws, lighter speed squats and benchs stuff, medball throws, depth jumps, alttitude drops and so on

There is third area called rate work. Where the cyclic speed rather than max power is the main goal, ie how fast you feet and arms move without regard
to the force they exert. Stuff liking rope skipping, sprinting when you reach max speed (not while acclerating though) would be considered rate activities

AW 1RMs is where you just add the correct bodweight % used to the actual barweight.

From Db Hammer's 8th June Q&A-
as far as the words he uses - Duration work is like pure strength and repetition stuff. Magnitude is basicly power/speed work. Rate is as described above. These catergories are more to do with the neural impulse that is triggered in the CNS. Duration - big long slow curve. Magnitude, is a short sharp high rise and decay. Rate is high frequency, shallow blips

if you want to learn more - go to his site here http://www.inno-sport.net/
and read all the articles, but start with the training basics one, or else you won't understand what the hell he is talking about, but his newer articles get easier. You need his book to get the most out of the info, which in itself isn't an easy read without a training science background
but his stuff will explain a lot of the concepts which are just guesswork for other strength coaches

Appropriate Measures
Appropriate Measures

There is a big difference between taking straight weight percents and using my Appropriation of Weight(AW) techniques. For instance, some generic repetition-percent charts will tell that you can only get 2 reps with 90% of your max whereas others will claim that you should be able to get as much as 6 reps per set with the same percent of your max. And not only do these generic charts hold more faults as the training percent get further away from your established one rep max, but there are individual differences that must be taken into account. Moreover, even if the proper chart is adopted for a specific athlete in a specific movement, the chart automatically becomes invalid once the movement is switched up.

This was obviously baffling to the coaches of yester-year who strived to assign loading parameters to their athletes based on percent guidelines for a given repetition count(i.e. 3 x 8 reps @ 77.5% 1RM). They didn't know if they should trust one chart that said the athlete should be able to get 8 reps with 85% of their max or another one that said 75% of their max is best. And frustration really set in when they tried to apply these same chart guidelines to various movements. For instance, one particular athlete may be able to get 11 reps with 80% of his max in the bench press but only get 5 reps with 80% of his max squat, whereas, another athlete may be able to get 6 reps with 80% in the bench and, say, only 3 reps with 80% in the squat. So as the movement and athlete varied so did the reliability of the charts. This quickly resulted in some athletes over-training, others under-training, and a very, very small population of athletes training correctly and seeing the results that go with it! What a crap shoot it was, indeed!

We knew immediately that the problem was rooted deeper than just neuro-muscular efficiency. We know that an athlete can be strong but have no strength endurance just as much as an athlete can have pretty good strength endurance but not so great absolute strength(even though the broad-scope correlation is still there). So these charts were almost immediately found to be a poor resource for duration methodics. Again, this is because we know that we can manipulate the system to decrease magnitude ability through conservation of work techniques. But, hold on tight my friend, that's not the only reason these charts were complete crap. In particular, these charts were less reliable during the movements that involved a large portion of bodyweight lifted in addition to bar weight.

For instance, some athletes can't do a pullup with external resistance. Others can't do a body dip or squat with any "additional" load. This doesn't mean that they aren't encountering any resistance when they attempt to do a free body squat or a parallel bar body dip...it means that a certain percentage of the athletes bodyweight is lifted in addition to any external resistance added to the movement (and this "rule" holds true for every movement in the weight room!).

For instance, if you weigh 150 kg (330 lbs) and you can squat 300 kg (660 lbs) of barweight then in all actuality you are a 438 kg squatter (963.6 lbs)! Some of you are probably still wondering why this particular example athlete isn't considered in my book to just be a 300 kg squatter...whereas others are probably baffled as to why I consider him a 438 kg squatter instead of a 450 kg squatter. For the first crowd, you need to realize that bar weight is only a portion of the total weight lifted. Whether the weight is a "part of you" or stacked on your back, it doesn't really matter, it's all still a portion of the total weight lift. Counting only bar weight is just as stupid a mistake as counting only the proportion of body weight lifted for a given movment and assuming any degree of additional bar weight to be a non-factor. To the rest of you: the answer to your questions is in the immediate information below!

Even though most of my duration methodics use the constant of time and are then "fitted" with the correct amount of additional load, there are some duration methodics(such as paused repetition protocols) that make it mandatory to know appropriation of weight techniques(in addition to knowing how the speed of movement for a certain portion of the lift changes the amount of weight needed for the movement). And without a doubt, magnitude methodics are heavily reliant on knowing how to use appropriation of weight techniques. So let's take a look at some basic bodyweight percent-factors to work with and then discuss how to use 'em.



Approximate Percent of Bodyweight

Head: 10%

Trunk: 45%

Upper Arm: 7%

Forearm: 4%

Hand: 1%

Thigh: 25%

Lower Leg: 6%

Foot: 2%



Now, all you have to do is total the percents of bodyweight lifted for a given movement. For instance, according to this chart, 92% of your bodyweight (everything except the lower leg and foot is "lifted") is needed to be overcome when performing a squat. However, laws of leverages and other finite variances of lifter to lifter and athlete to athlete have lead us to adopt an 85% factor...but, nonetheless, now you should be able to understand why a bodyweight squat is never "loadless." Ever wonder why pullups are so damn hard? Well, look no further than appropriation of weight techniques to understand this. The only body parts not lifted in the movement are your forearms and hands...a measly 5% of your total bodyweight. This means that you are actually lifting 95% of your bodyweight when performing a pullup. That is, a 100 kg (220 lbs) man would need the strength to overcome 95 kg (209 lbs) just to perform a single pullup with his bodyweight alone! And if he cradles a 20 kg (44 lbs) dumbell between his legs or straps it to a loading belt then he isn't just lifting 20 kg's...no sir...he is lifting 115 kg (253 lbs). Now do you see why your years spent with inferior weights on the lat machine have failed to help you become a better "pulluper"?

Now, to appropriate weight you have to calculate the actual load (using the chart above and referencing the above examples if needed) by calculating how much bodyweight is lifted as well as additional loading (such as barbells or dumbells). You then multiply by the training percent desired, followed by subtracting out your bodyweight lifted to result in the appropriate training percents.

For instance, if you want to train in the magnitude modality with speed reps in the bench press and you are a 120 kg (264 lbs) man with a 240 kg (528 lbs) max then you first have to decide what percent you want to work with. Let's say that you are going to use a wave load technique and alternate sets of 74% AW 1RM with 63% AW 1RM. Using the chart above, you can see that only 5% of the bodyweight is "lifted" in this movement. (note: we often use different percents for the same reasons listed above regarding the squat example) This means that only 6 kg or 13.2 lbs are lifted when this athlete lays on his back and presses his arms in a bench press motion. It also means that he is actually lifting 246 kg (541.2 lbs) when he hits a max single. Now, step two calls for multiplying this value by your training percent. We have two in this example: 74% and 63%. So after the math we find values of 182 kg (400 lbs) and 155 kg (341 lbs). We then need to subtract the bodyweight lifted in the movement to finalize how much bar weight is needed to train with. So after subtracting 6 kg from each of these values we find that the appropriate weight (AW) to train with for 74% and 63% mag work, respectively, in this sample bench press workout are 176 kg (387 lbs) and 149 kg (328 lbs). Had we simply taken straight-weight percents then we would have arrived at training weight values of 178 kg (391 lbs) and 151 kg (333 lbs). And even though it is only a 2 kg mistake for each case, this small degree of error eventually leads to overtraining. But more importantly, when you take a movement with a greater percentage of bodyweight lifted, such as a pullup, bodydip or squat, then you will find the degree of error to be much greater if you don't appropriate weight. For instance, the degree of error for an athlete who uses straight weight techniques in the squat who weighs 100 kg man and who can squat 350 kg, assuming a 63% training weight value, is about 35 kg (76 lbs)! Now that is a huge error to make day in and day out, wouldn't you agree?!



And since I brought it up earlier, I may as well leave you with a more advanced application of appropriation of weight techniques. It involves the duration methodic of paused-reps. Now, in the bench press you can get away with using 75% of your 1RM with straight-weight techniques for a set of 6 paused reps, each held at the CJC for a 5 count before pumping a rep. This is because the bodyweight factor is low. However, with a movement like barbell squats, you would get crushed if you tried to use the same percent techniques! So here's what you do:



(1) Determine the "actual load" lifted in your one rep max

A 100 kg man who squats 200 kg has a bodyweight factor of roughly 92 kg, meaning his actual one rep max in the squat is 292 kg (bar weight lifted plus bodyweight lifted). This is the number you will need to go off of in step two:



(2) Take of 2% for every second pause in the isometric and take off 2.5% for every rep.

So if you want to hit 6 reps with a 5 second pause for each then you have a total of 15% off your 1RM because of the number or reps desired and an additional 10% lost because of the "pause durations" in between each rep. That is a lost value of 25%. Which means that you will need to train with 75% AW 1RM. Again, in bench press the bodyweight factor is so low that a straight-shot 75% may be close to working out just fine...but in the squat movement the margin of error would be way too great to even try it.



(3) Use Appropriation of Weight techniques to determine how much bar weight is needed.

In this example we are striving for 75%. So I will spare laying out the math for you because I want you to break out the pencil and paper and learn it for yourself, but I will tell you that the correct answer is 127 kg (280 lbs) of bar weight. Had you taken the old-school straight weight approach then you would have made a 23 kg blunder...which means that you would have strapped on over 50 lbs more than you should have to the bar. And needless to say, this is precisely the reason why you wouldn't have been able to complete the 6 reps as prescribed.


The moral is an easy one to remember: Don't get lazy, use appropriation of weight (AW) techniques whenever appropriate!

 

[Lord_Suston]

My honest opinion of the subject is there is a point where you get too big to fight. I am at that point right now due to all the strongman and powerlifting. But as general rule you need to look at training as off season and pre-season and then comps.

In off season you should work on your strength, and weak or lagging areas, not in a bodybuilding sense but more a functional sense, weak abs need to to be strengthened ect... (Absolute strength)

When you find that you are the apporiate strength then you work on explosive power such as oly lifts, squats with bands or chains. so you maintain strength and work on adding explosiveness into the equation.

Then you start adding in real speed work such as agility drill, sprints, water running ect.....at this ppoint you should not try to bring up aboslute strength, hopefully maintain it and improve explosive strength.

Then technique work of the martial art in question will start and priority will be on speed and your fighting ability and not really on absolute strength and a decreased emphasis on explosive strenght.


Basically if I wanted to grapple in NAGA, which I might do over the winter. (grappling based tournaments) I would stop my powerlifting and turn toward explosive lifting (cause I have enough strenght IMO) and start working on conditiong and technique about 8 weeks out I would lesson the lifting to 3x a week and up grappling to 3x a week at 4 weeks out I lift 1-2x a week whole body and grapple 3-4x a week and work on overall speed 2x a week. then 2 weeks out drop the lifting and work on condition and technique. The thing is I am not trying to learn a new art I know how to grapple proficiently so I would not have to learn new skill, which takes considerable amount of time so I could work on condition and overall speed more than technique

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Ohh just realized I had a question on this, Suston...

You say you already feel you have enough strength - well at what point do you see it as enough? I know it varies a lot, but you did say you feel there's a point where one is too big, so would there be any point where the limit on strength should be placed? Obviously if you can have more, it's better, but in general, going from 650 to 700 in a squat (just random, large numbers) won't do much in a fight.

 

[halfaclue]

maybe do a search on Mike McDOnald..if that is name..the black F-1 fighter with blonge hair. He is big and cut and exsplosive.

 

[Lord_Suston]

Ohh just realized I had a question on this, Suston...

You say you already feel you have enough strength - well at what point do you see it as enough? I know it varies a lot, but you did say you feel there's a point where one is too big, so would there be any point where the limit on strength should be placed? Obviously if you can have more, it's better, but in general, going from 650 to 700 in a squat (just random, large numbers) won't do much in a fight.

you just have to go by feel but i have one thing I measure it against. if I grapple in a 185 and lighter category I try to be stronger than the 185-200 and right in the mid range of 200-220 category. Example my friend who use to fight MMA was 240lbs, I could lift just as much as him so I decided to work on grappling and explosive strength as a primary goal. But on the other hand for speed I try to be just as fast as the group below my weight class.

So in the end I was:
Strength training like a 200-220lbs grappler
Working on speed like a 170-185lbs fighter
And work on skill level equavilent of that of a teacher

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

I have trained in BJJ and a litle bit in boxing. Just enough in each to get the basics down, so I think I can give you a few pointers. In BJJ, overall strength and power to weight is gonna help you the most, ie., get stronger without getting bigger. There are guys that can beat you because their technique is better or they wear you down, but if the technique isn't there, then all they can do is ride you out until you tire out. Endurance doesn't win fights instantly, but besides technique, strength and power can end it FAST. So I'd train primarily as a powerlifter and throw in powercleans, but that's just my opinion. Watch your calories because you don't want to bulk up, you jsut want to get stronger in the same weight class. Besides absolute strength and power, I'd work on ab strength, not endurance. Train your abs heavy and hard with weight. And lastly I'd work on flexibility. Flexibility is VERY important to being good at BJJ. It's hard to put a guy in a triangle choke if your groin, quads and hams aren't flexible enough.