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Suston & CCJ - Come to my rescue

Tom Treutlein

New member
Okay, obviously there's a point of diminishing returns when it comes to leg strength vs. explosiveness when fighting is concerned. Now, I'm wondering at what point one should really start emphasizing flexibility and speed over strength?

I mean, you can have someone who can squat 500-600 lbs. (an average powerlifter, let's say) and they'd be damn strong, but obviously as you grow bigger and stronger, you'll be sacrificing speed and explosive ability.

So. It's kind've open-ended, but I'm wondering at what point you guys suggest a line be drawn, assuming fighting ability is the main goal, between strength and explosiveness.

Lots of rambling there. Hope I got some kind've point across.
 
maybe you should look into OLY lifts. im sure thats why you asked for CCJ to help. but accomplished OLY lifters have tremendous explosiveness.
 
i don't think there is a point where increased strength leads to LESS explosiveness. there is a point where increased strength won't help anymore because the added strength can't be activated in the necessary timeframe. With fighting as you are trying to manipulate your own body and someone else's as well, you'd want to maximize explosiveness with fairly heavy loads (as opposed to training just for a good vertical jump).

for example the snatch is an explosive movement, but adding 100 lbs to your squat will make your snatch go up if you continue to train it. this seems to be true to the limits of human capacity. You'll notice the biggest guys in OL back squat the most, clean the most, and snatch the most. also powersnatch or powerclean the most.

the vertical jump is an explosive movement with much less weight. so there is a point where added leg strength won't be applicable but it's pretty high.. over a double bodyweight olmypic squat i'd imagine. I think most olympic sprinters can squat at least double bodyweight, maybe more?

if you do both strength and speed/explosive training in the weightroom your explosiveness will grow with your strength. your size is controlled by your diet and there will never be a point where your strength will be slowing you down, but there will be a point, say at a 2.25x bodyweight olympic squat, where you know you'd have to sacrifice time from fighting or explosive training to get the squat to go any higher. for you that would probably be the time to switch to maintenance of strength on that particular movement because the squat is not an end in itself for you. (or take some time to get it to go up in the 'offseason' and then refocus on explosive/fighting training again)

does that make sense/ help at all?
 
Hard to say, as I'm no expert on such things, butI have 2 articles for you to read - that will give you something to chew on, and help steer your training

Power Training Basics
by Dietrich Buchenholz

Being successful as an athlete is simple; How much power can you produce? Strength development is one piece to solving the puzzle but it’s definitely not the “holy grail” of performance development. Sure, some coaches may trick you into thinking they know a lot about “sports training” by flooding your mind with their knowledge of “strength training”. But don’t be scared to use the “bullshit meter” if you have to. Just ask yourself; “Does it make me a better player on the field?” Forget about the numbers in the gym, they’re pointless. Does it improve your stats on the field? In other words, don’t worry about the fact your strength coach keeps giving you shit because he can “out-squat” you. If he’s really a bad ass then why can you shake him like Shakira’s booty on the playing field? What you need to worry about is not wasting your efforts in pursuit of your goals. Make the most of your time and you will go the furthest- Very simple advice to train and live by.


I always laugh when NFL strength coaches bitch about how weak their new recruits are and how crappy these athletes old strength programs must have been. These strength coaches obviously don’t have a clue! The athletes’ “piss-poor strength” was good enough to land him a job in the NFL, right? I mean, why didn’t you just draft the insanely strong guy if that’s what’s so important? Trust me, any one of these gym freaks would be glad to give up their nighttime telemarketing job to play in the NFL. The reason you picked up the “weak guy” is because he is powerful as hell. And if you think that the stronger you get the more powerful you’re automatically going to become, get out of the profession now while you’re dignity is still in check!


Bottom line: the more some of you learn about Power the more you realize your strength training efforts have been an over-kill! Heck, you may even be surprised to learn how your strength training efforts have actually hindered your development on the playing field!

“Strength”
“Gee, that’s a strong firecracker you got there!”
Sit in the stands and watch an athletic event- any athletic event- and you’re sure to hear onlookers make claims like; “Boy, that athlete has a strong arm”…or “Look at how strong his leg is!” But unless you’re sitting in the stands of a powerlifting meet their claims of “strength” are often misplaced. What they are seeing is “power”, not strength. Ever see Pedro Martinez throw a baseball? Forget the fact that he can light up a catcher’s glove like a Christmas tree…the guy looks like he should be selling blankets on the beaches of Cancun, not striking out the likes of Jason Giambi, Barry Bonds and Albert Pujols. Ever see Kim Collins run a 100 meters? Once you get past the fact you can literally see the food digesting in his gut if he’s wearing a wifebeater (he’s transparent with his shirt off), it’s hard to ignore the fact that he rakes the track like a madman! Strength? Ha! Put it this way, the guy thinks “box squatting” means sitting down to take a shit.


The truth is that there are different types of “strength”. For instance, if you are looking to develop “explosive-strength” then your efforts should center-around “strength-speed” work. But if you need to raise your “explosive-power” development you would be better served with “speed-strength” work (hold on, I’ll answer your questions in a second). All in all, there are four main types of “strength” work you can employ: “absolute-strength”, “strength-endurance”, “strength-speed”, and “speed-strength”. As a side note, there are two other modalities of work you can employ as an athlete- “restorative warm-up” exercises and “speed endurance” exercises.


Most people understand that absolute-strength is simply a test of how much weight you can lift, and these same people have usually learned by now that strength-endurance is a measure of how much force you can continually produce over a given interval. But most people get confused about strength-speed versus speed-strength, so let’s turn our attention there.



“Power Percents”
The most important value to know when weight training is not how much you can lift but at what percent of your max strength do you produce peak power. This is the divide between speed-strength work and strength-speed work. Research has shown that athletes may put out peak power in a range of 51% AW 1RM and 74% AW 1RM (with some athletes producing peak power with slightly lower or higher values). Yes, this means that you can raise or lower your relative power output. Just as interesting to note is the fact that you can increase the “time to rise” of power achievement (but more on that latter). Getting back to what I was saying, if you use my Appropriated-Weight techniques detailed in “The Sports Book” then you will be able to use the same percents for every movement in the gym. If not, you will have no way of knowing if the athlete is even strong enough to begin power training methods!


The reason why most research keeps drawing out different conclusions about how much weight an athlete needs to work with to achieve peak power in the gym is because they are using straight-weight percents, not appropriated-weight percents. Appropriation of weight simply means that you are taking the athletes bodyweight into consideration for a given movement. For instance, an athlete will have to lift 92% of his bodyweight in addition to bar weight in the squat, and approximately 8% of his bodyweight in addition to bar weight in the bench press. You should already be able to see why using the same straight-weight power-percents for the upper body and lower body is a huge mistake!


As mentioned earlier, most athletes will put out peak power within the range of 51% and 74% of their Appropriated-Weight one rep max (or “AW 1RM” for short). Athletes who have had a long stay with strength training methods will put out peak power with lower percents than athletes who have been using more power based training protocols. In practical terms, this means that you could very well have a pair of 200 lb athletes, one of them a 300 lbs bencher and the other a 442 lbs bencher, and they both produce the same amount of power! That is, they are both moving 217 lbs just as fast as one another even though one guy is obviously much stronger. Which if you put it into boxing terms, the 442 lb bencher had better be stronger because he’ll need to keep pushing himself up from off the canvas!


Even though this example is extreme, there are literally countless athletes with this problem. They pack the strength but lack the power! You will be able to understand this more as we take a look at the neuro-muscular changes in relation to different regimes of strength in future editions of “The Buchenholz Method: Power Training!” series.



Strength-Speed Training
The purpose of strength-speed training is to develop “explosive-strength”, which is defined as “the ability to realize strength quickly”. What this really means is that you will be increasing your “rate of force development”(RFD). Take a pair of NFL lineman who weigh the same and squat the same, both with sound technique and nor a leverage advantage to either one. The one who is going to win the battle at the line of scrimmage is the one who has better explosive-strength development. This is not only because he is going to be delivering more force to his opponent but also because he will reach this point of peak force output quicker. That, my friends, is like playing No-Limit Poker with a pair of Aces up your sleeve! That, my friends, is explosive-strength development!


AW percents for strength-speed training are 20% above your peak power output. Since the average athlete will put out peak power with 63% AW 1RM, the general guideline is to use 63-83% AW 1RM for your strength-speed work. However, some less-explosive athletes will want to use 51-71% AW weights and some more-explosive athletes, such as basketball players, may be better served with 74-94% AW 1RM when looking to develop explosive-strength. Again, it all comes back to your relative-power output in respect to your absolute-strength.



Speed-Strength Training
The purpose of speed-strength training is to develop “explosive-power”, or “the ability to achieve peak velocity as early in the rebound action of the movement as possible”. What’s the difference between an elite baseball player and an elite softball player? We’ve tested them both to be able to swing over 90 mph with a baseball bat, but only the baseball players had enough rate of force development to accelerate the bat head fast enough to achieve peak velocity rapidly after the start of the swing. The softball players had a longer acceleration track, not to mention much slower reaction time scores. It should be noted at this point that explosive-strength development and explosive-power development are both reliant on proficient rate of force development display.


Moreover, take a pair of baseball players and have them bat off the same pitcher, and cut out any other variables you can think of (such as pitch type, pitch location, etc). Assuming both of them are able to put out the same amount of power, the one who can realize it sooner will have the advantage. Watch a living-immortal like Barry Bonds hit and you know what I’m talking about. The ball looks like it’s almost past his front knee before he even thinks about swinging! The critical factor isn’t his 95 mph bat speed- lots of guys do that- the critical factor is his ability to go from 0 to 95 mph with his bat head quicker than most of us “humans” can blink an eyelash! That, my friends, is explosive-power! The critical factor is teaching your system to develop force faster. You do this by stimulating your neuromuscular system to achieve peak-twitch as quickly as possible within the given movement.


Let’s take another example- not so much to help you but because I’m having fun with these! You have two basketball players who can jump just as high as one another. They are driving the lane stride-for-stride, one on offense and one on defense. The offensive player can achieve peak-twtich 20 ms into the concentric phase of the jump and the defensive player takes 45 ms into the concentric portion of the jump to achieve peak-twitch. Knowing that the quicker the achievement of peak-twitch the greater the rate of force development of the athlete (which means the quicker the athlete will achieve peak velocity and consequently get off the ground quicker); Who do you think is going to win this battle? Can you smell chin-nuts, anyone?


The fact is that there are lots of baseball players who can swing 90 mph and lots of basketball players who can jump 35 inches. But when they have to display these abilities at “game speed” only a few of them survive. Why? Poor explosive-power development (read: not enough speed-strength work in their training programs).


Speed-strength training embodies everything below your relative-peak power AW percent. The goal is two-fold: teach your system to activate peak-twitch sooner and teach your system to release peak tension quicker. Most athletes will work with 63% AW 1RM and below, with only 43%-63% AW 1RM having a strong direct-impact on their peak power scores and explosive-strength development (even though all speed-strength percents will feed into explosive-power development). Again, some athletes may work with 54-74% AW 1RM to influence their relative power output whereas others need to work with 31-51% AW 1RM.



Closing Thoughts
It’s easy for us as coaches to sit back and yell “quick feet” or “explode to the ball.” But is any of this really doing the athlete any good? Let’s say an athlete weighs 200 lbs and squats 150 lbs. Is he strong enough to move quickly, let alone start a speed-strength training program?


The answer is “no!” Always take the lower AW percent value to answer these types of questions. For him, this means that he squats 334 lbs(bodyweight included). 51% of that is 170.34 lbs. Take out his bodyweight (92% of 200 lbs, or 184 lbs) and you can see that he would have to work with negative-weights (-13.66 lbs) to try and develop explosive-power! Now you can either chop off an arm or train him in an exo-skeleton, but why not just get him strong! Remember, a good coach never has to scream about technique because all technical aspects are rooted in the nervous system. In other words, manipulate your nervous system properly and you will take care of your technical problems!


Finally, remember what Alexsei Medvedyev said when looking to build peak power; “there are no special exercises to develop speed or strength; they all develop speed-strength to a greater or lesser extent.” Training is a relatively simple thing to do. Sure your training prescriptions have to get more and more precise the closer you get to achieving the most of your performance capacity. But if you ever get confused don’t go digging deeper and deeper for answers, take a step back to make sure you’re headed in the right direction to begin with!

Hopefully some of these “Power Training Basics” have given you a nice refreshing break from Flex Fantasy Magazine, and maybe even helped steer you back on course!
 
more stuff - trimmed for relevant info


The Power Development Cycle
The number one factor for power production is power absorption (e.g. high velocity/high force yielding, a.k.a. “eccentric power output”) because it leads to the greatest degree of stretch-reflex potential in the muscle-tendon complex. And it's no secret that the more energy you take in the more energy you can put out. Just think about a quarterback throwing the ball like a drunken dartsman versus a quarterback who throws like, well, a quarterback. Or it may help you to relate the concept to jumping out of a chair versus a typical down-up vertical jump?


The number one factor for power absorption development is strength development. Research shows that as your muscles get stronger your ability to absorb more force increases, which in turn gives you the potential to absorb more power. And this if obviously important because the more power you can absorb, the more power you can produce!

Power is defined as the product of force and velocity whereas force is defined as the product of mass and acceleration(or mass and “deceleration” in this case). Just think, force plate studies show a sprinter will encounter about 5 times his bodyweight in force on a single leg at peak velocity. That's tremendous force executed at tremendous velocity...or "power" as some of us like to call it. Consequently, the main difference between power absorption and force absorption is the velocity component. It's best to think of force absorption as slow-negatives with relatively heavy weight (Force = MASS x deceleration), even though it can also be thought of as lighter weight with a greater deceleration component (Force = mass x DECELERATION) and a moderate mass yielded at a moderate deceleration value (Force = mass x deceleration). But, it helps me to think about how fast the body or loaded-limb is moving prior to the point at which the object is slowed down (decelerated) whenever I want to get my arms around the power absorption concept.

If you take a power movement and perform it in “reverse” or just the first-half of the movement then you will absorb a good deal of power. The landing of a depth-drop from a high box; the catching of a barbell during a beta-snatch movement or drop-squat movement and of course AMT landings (i.e. 'over-speed depth drops’) are all good examples of power absorption movements. In terms of methods explained in “The Sports Book”, amplitude-drop-absorption (ADA) methods where you drop, absorb and stabilize can all be classified as power absorption methods. Force-drop-absorptions (FDA), also detailed in “The Sports Book” are another group of power absorption methods. In terms of force, which may be easier for many of you to understand, power absorption methods can be thought of as “Force = mass x DECELERATION”. That is, the force register during power production and power absorption movements isn't necessarily high because the mass of the object being moved is great but, rather, because the acceleration/deceleration factor is so big.

Think of them as fast acting eccentrics where a good deal of force is taken into the muscle and you should be able to understand what a research scientists is talking about when he uses the term power-absorption. In example, the reactive (REA) method and the reactive-acceleration (RA) method also contain a good deal of power absorption. Again, the more velocity going into the absorption/yielding phase of speed-strength and strength-speed movements the greater the chance you have to absorb power (or put out “eccentric power” as science calls it). You can absorb a lot of power during full range movements, as well, just be sure to focus on rapid yielding-to-overcoming transitions- "Plyometrics" should ring a bell?


Another way to distinguish between force absorption and power absorption is to compare a heavily weighted squat jump with a reactive box jump and the vertical jump improvements each one makes. Use a force plate to make sure the force values for the weighted squat jumps equal that of the depth-jumps. What you'll find is that the altitude drop-and-jumps increase your vertical jumping ability more than the loaded counter-movement-jumps because more power is absorbed with the former (or less power was absorbed with the latter…however you prefer to look at it). Again, the interesting concept is that the force absorbed is the same but the power absorbed is different.

This is yet another reason why AMT jumps out-perform other jump training methods when looking to raise your run-up approach jumping ability, or “reactive-strength” as sport scientists call it.


Another intriguing concept here is most athletes errantly try to raise performance by simply getting stronger. I'm sure you've heard this one before:

"Hey coach, how do I get better?"

"Easy...get stronger!"

That's bullshit! Even though the strength training approach may help them increase their force absorption potential, especially in terms of being able to lower heavy weights under control, it's only when you increase your ability to absorb more power will you realize the greatest gains in your power production development! So much for your cut and dry powerlifting and/or bodybuilding routine, huh? What may interest you bodybuilders and powerlifters, however, is that as your power production values go up then your hypertrophy potential goes through the roof. Once you capture this hypertrophy potential then you will have raised your strength threshold, once again, setting a new stone for power development. That's one you're sure to hear regurgitated by all of my copy-cat coaches out there!

As you can see, it's nothing more than a big fat cycle of getting stronger to get more powerful to get bigger so that you can get stronger which feeds into more power development! (whew…that sucked the air out of me!)

But hold the press! Before you jump the gun let's see why the application of this merry-go-round process shouldn't be carried out as “color by number" as it may sound. In fact, let's take a look at how and why we don't even "strength train" to make our athletes the best they can become!


Strength Training Problems
The problem comes from the adaptability of your nervous system in respect to strength development methods. Teach it to strain and it strains. Teach it to fire and release and it will quickly achieve peak-twitch and just as rapidly release muscle tension, exactly as you conditioned it to respond. But the loophole is that strength work decreases the rate at which your muscles can activate peak tension and prolongs the duration to which they hold onto peak tension. Why is this a problem? In short, your body will be slow to react and your injury potential will be as high as Snoop Dogg (that's right, I said it!).


Let’s say you are a baseball player and you have .30 seconds from the time the ball leaves the pitchers hand to the time it reaches your contact zone (reaction time equates to about a 90 mph fastball). Through practice you can read the pitcher’s release point to know if it’s going to be a ball or strike almost instantaneously. In other words, you don’t have to burn .20 seconds of your available .30 seconds to read and recognize the pitch- which is how long it generally takes random test subjects to respond in randomized scientific settings that guage visual reaction times. Anyways, being able to optimize your feedforward and feedback mechanisms through actual participation of sport (hmm, that's a novel concept of late) means you have a bit more time to respond. But let’s say that it still takes you .10 seconds to recognize the pitch type and location. That gives you .20 seconds to get the bat head on the ball. If you’ve been performing a bunch of reactive work then your neuro-muscular system can be conditioned to achieve peak twitch of your muscle fibers in .20 seconds- no problem! But if you’ve been focusing on strength work then you may actually de-condition your system to the point that you’re recruiting your muscles slower, delaying peak-twitch activation, and increasing the decay of tension-release. For all of you still trying to pay attention, this means "big problem!" In this case you can see that it doesn’t matter that you are stronger because your explosive-power numbers are going to be down on the playing field! In fact, that's all that really matters. Just ask any precision-skill athlete, especially a power-precision athlete, nothing sucks worse then telling your body what to do but it’s too slow to respond.


Another major problem with strength work is it will teach your system to hold onto tension too long. As a sprinter this can be dangerous. As you “spring” down the track you don’t want to be wasting energy because your muscles won't relax when they need to relax because this will cause you to (a) hit a wall towards the end of the race and (b) produce less power per positive and negative contraction stroke (remember what we said about the relationship between power absorption and power production). A simple way to remember this concept is to know that your reactive ability will be greater following a state of relaxation than a state of tension. One last point about retaining the strength of contraction too long is the poor release of tension has been shown to lead to muscle strains, such as hamstrings pulls.


------

For one, strength work will tell your system to turn on slow and sustain tension. Speed work on the other hand will tell your system to turn on quick and release tension rapidly. These are obviously two completely different “neuromuscular programs”. Which ones do you want to teach your system? Remember, only the “quick to rise, quick to release” athlete will survive in elite sports this day and age, so there’s really no question that your sports training efforts should center around power development strategies.
As a side note, if you were to mix strength and speed in a single training session, single training day, or in "companion session" format the development of each independent element (speed, strength) would decrease since your system doesn’t know if it should adapt to the speed stimulus or to the strength stimulus (i.e. increase its rapid-fire ability or increase its strain-time ability). This basically means that you can waste your time training speed and strength together- there’s plenty of coaches who do that- but you are going to be holding your strength development back with your speed work and you are going to sabotage your speed development with your strength work! Why work your ass off to go nowhere?


If your relative power output scores are closer to 51% AW 1RM than 74% AW 1RM then there is no question what you need to do with your training: emphasize explosive-strength and explosive-power development methods(a.k.a. Strength-Speed and Speed-Strength Methodics).
 
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Are you training for Martial Arts?

Trying to increase your kicking speed/strength?

B True
 
Training in no specific art yet. Soon I'll be taking a BJJ class with a former UFC champion recommended to me by a very close teacher who's been training in martial arts for years now.

Anyway, I'm looking to train to develop better strikes. More powerful, swifter, deadly strikes. Kicks, punches, elbows and knees...

Anything that would help me win a fight. Whether it be a street fight or a match in the ring. Anything functional.
 
"That's bullshit! Even though the strength training approach may help them increase their force absorption potential, especially in terms of being able to lower heavy weights under control, it's only when you increase your ability to absorb more power will you realize the greatest gains in your power production development! So much for your cut and dry powerlifting and/or bodybuilding routine, huh? What may interest you bodybuilders and powerlifters, however, is that as your power production values go up then your hypertrophy potential goes through the roof. Once you capture this hypertrophy potential then you will have raised your strength threshold, once again, setting a new stone for power development. That's one you're sure to hear regurgitated by all of my copy-cat coaches out there!"

He agrees with DC, there.

"...Another major problem with strength work is it will teach your system to hold onto tension too long. As a sprinter this can be dangerous. As you “spring” down the track you don’t want to be wasting energy because your muscles won't relax when they need to relax because this will cause you to (a) hit a wall towards the end of the race and (b) produce less power per positive and negative contraction stroke (remember what we said about the relationship between power absorption and power production). A simple way to remember this concept is to know that your reactive ability will be greater following a state of relaxation than a state of tension..."

What is the above saying? The entire last line, really. Reactive ability will be greater following a state of relaxation than one of tension? Is that like the whole "don't make a solid fist until you're about to land the punch" thing? You know, keeping the hand "loose" until the strike and all?



And finally, I read it all and I'm going to go through it again in an hour to try and grasp more of it because I'm not following some of the vocabulary in there (long day and I have music on some I'm half-focused), but the last line basically talks about how training for both at the same time will kind've slow down your potential gains in either...so what's best? To train for one, then the other? Or will that just ruin you anyway?

I would think strength work, followed by speed work in the future. You know, the entire "building a base" deal, then following up that with tweaking of your speed and RFD and such.
 
Tom Treutlein said:
Training in no specific art yet. Soon I'll be taking a BJJ class with a former UFC champion recommended to me by a very close teacher who's been training in martial arts for years now.

Anyway, I'm looking to train to develop better strikes. More powerful, swifter, deadly strikes. Kicks, punches, elbows and knees...

Anything that would help me win a fight. Whether it be a street fight or a match in the ring. Anything functional.

The MOST important thing that you need to do right now is this...

1) Start training in Martial Arts.

I've been hit by guys who were 150 pounds, skin and bones, and weak in the gym...but they were PERFECT at their fighting. Getting bigger and stronger will help you, a good deal.

Squat
Deadlift
Clean and Press
Overhed Press (standing)
Chins
Barbell Rows
Dips
Incline Bench
LOTS of grip work
LOTS of ab work

Those are the basics...

B True
 
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