Supplementing T3 with my HGH

[doublefister]

I have been on HGH for about 3 months now and its really starting to wear me down. I am up to 3.5IU's a day and still going up. I am wanting to start adding T3 but not sure how to add it. I have read some just use 25mcg ed at night time. Some are even adding T4 since it converts to T3. A whole article on that which I posted somewhere.

So those who are adding T3 how are you taking it? Just using 25mcg everyday and keeping at that dosage? I plan on being on HGH for awhile as long as I can afford it. I will probably start doing eod injections to see if it makes a difference and then I will be doing higher doses.

 

[Triple J]

25-50/d titrate to your preference, and you should have done it from the start of your hgh run

 

[Anthony Roberts]

http://www.anthony-roberts.com/th_gh.html

 

[Makavelli]

Add 25 mcgs/day. That will do it.

 

[truckdaddy]

Add 25 mcgs/day. That will do it.

What excactly does the t3 do in conjunction of HGH, would this be used if only trying to lose weight?

 

[Anthony Roberts]

What excactly does the t3 do in conjunction of HGH, would this be used if only trying to lose weight?

T3 makes hGH a less effective anabolic.

J Hepatol. 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9.

Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man.

Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen JO.
Department of Medicine M (Endocrinology and Diabetes), Aarhus University Hospital, Denmark.

BACKGROUND/AIMS: A decline in urea excretion is seen following long-term growth hormone administration, reflecting overall protein anabolism. Conversely, hyperthyroidism is characterized by increased urea synthesis and negative nitrogen metabolism. These seemingly opposite effects are presumed to reflect different actions on peripheral protein metabolism. The extent to which these hormonal systems have different direct effects on hepatic urea genesis has not been fully characterized. METHODS: We measured urea nitrogen synthesis rates and blood alanine levels concomitantly before, during, and after a 4-h constant intravenous infusion of alanine (2 mmol.kg bw-1.h-1). Urea nitrogen synthesis rate was estimated hourly as urinary excretion corrected for gut hydrolysis and accumulation in body water. The slope of the linear relationship between urea nitrogen synthesis rate and alanine concentration represents the liver function as to conversion of amino-N, and is denoted the functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. Eight normal male subjects (age 21-27 years; body mass index 22.4-27.0 kg/m2) were randomly studied four times: 1) after 10 days of subcutaneous saline injections, 2) after 10 days of subcutaneous growth hormone injections (0.1 IU/kg per day), 3) after 10 days of triiodothyronine administration (40 micrograms on even dates, 20 micrograms on uneven dates) and 4) after 10 days given 2)+3). All injections were given at 20 00 h. RESULTS: Growth hormone decreased functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (l/h) by 30% (from 33.8 +/- 3.2 l/h (control) to 23.8 +/- 1.5 l/h (10 days growth hormone) (mean +/- SE) (ANOVA; p < 0.01)). Triiodothyronine did not change functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (36.7 +/- 3.2 l/h), but triiodothyronine given together with growth hormone abolished the effect of growth hormone functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (38.8 +/- 4.8 l/h). CONCLUSIONS: The results show that long-term growth hormone administration acts on liver by decreasing functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, thereby retaining amino-N in the body. Triiodothyronine has no effect on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, but given together with growth hormone, it abolishes the effect of growth hormone on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. A possible mechanism is the known effect of thyroid hormones in reducing the bioavailability of insulin-like growth factor-I. Thus, the effects of growth hormone and triiodothyronine on amino-N homeostasis are interdependent and to some extent exerted via interplay in their regulation of liver function as to amino-N conversion.

PMID: 8778198 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[doublefister]

T3 makes hGH a less effective anabolic.

J Hepatol. 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9.

Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man.

Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen JO.
Department of Medicine M (Endocrinology and Diabetes), Aarhus University Hospital, Denmark.

BACKGROUND/AIMS: A decline in urea excretion is seen following long-term growth hormone administration, reflecting overall protein anabolism. Conversely, hyperthyroidism is characterized by increased urea synthesis and negative nitrogen metabolism. These seemingly opposite effects are presumed to reflect different actions on peripheral protein metabolism. The extent to which these hormonal systems have different direct effects on hepatic urea genesis has not been fully characterized. METHODS: We measured urea nitrogen synthesis rates and blood alanine levels concomitantly before, during, and after a 4-h constant intravenous infusion of alanine (2 mmol.kg bw-1.h-1). Urea nitrogen synthesis rate was estimated hourly as urinary excretion corrected for gut hydrolysis and accumulation in body water. The slope of the linear relationship between urea nitrogen synthesis rate and alanine concentration represents the liver function as to conversion of amino-N, and is denoted the functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. Eight normal male subjects (age 21-27 years; body mass index 22.4-27.0 kg/m2) were randomly studied four times: 1) after 10 days of subcutaneous saline injections, 2) after 10 days of subcutaneous growth hormone injections (0.1 IU/kg per day), 3) after 10 days of triiodothyronine administration (40 micrograms on even dates, 20 micrograms on uneven dates) and 4) after 10 days given 2)+3). All injections were given at 20 00 h. RESULTS: Growth hormone decreased functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (l/h) by 30% (from 33.8 +/- 3.2 l/h (control) to 23.8 +/- 1.5 l/h (10 days growth hormone) (mean +/- SE) (ANOVA; p < 0.01)). Triiodothyronine did not change functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (36.7 +/- 3.2 l/h), but triiodothyronine given together with growth hormone abolished the effect of growth hormone functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (38.8 +/- 4.8 l/h). CONCLUSIONS: The results show that long-term growth hormone administration acts on liver by decreasing functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, thereby retaining amino-N in the body. Triiodothyronine has no effect on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, but given together with growth hormone, it abolishes the effect of growth hormone on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. A possible mechanism is the known effect of thyroid hormones in reducing the bioavailability of insulin-like growth factor-I. Thus, the effects of growth hormone and triiodothyronine on amino-N homeostasis are interdependent and to some extent exerted via interplay in their regulation of liver function as to amino-N conversion.

PMID: 8778198 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

So basically drop the T3 and go with 100mcg of T4 instead am I correct? This is pretty much what I have been mentioning to people but they haven't read your article on T4 yet.

I have had some people that have tried both and didn't really see a difference though.

 

[Makavelli]

So basically drop the T3 and go with 100mcg of T4 instead am I correct? This is pretty much what I have been mentioning to people but they haven't read your article on T4 yet.

I have had some people that have tried both and didn't really see a difference though.

T4 to T3 conversion can be faulty with GH and with hypo cal diets. That's why it's better to go with T3.

 

[truckdaddy]

so everyone that is adding t3 to there HGH is trying to lose weight and or fat, not build any lean muscle?

T3 makes hGH a less effective anabolic.

J Hepatol. 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9.

Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man.

Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen JO.
Department of Medicine M (Endocrinology and Diabetes), Aarhus University Hospital, Denmark.

BACKGROUND/AIMS: A decline in urea excretion is seen following long-term growth hormone administration, reflecting overall protein anabolism. Conversely, hyperthyroidism is characterized by increased urea synthesis and negative nitrogen metabolism. These seemingly opposite effects are presumed to reflect different actions on peripheral protein metabolism. The extent to which these hormonal systems have different direct effects on hepatic urea genesis has not been fully characterized. METHODS: We measured urea nitrogen synthesis rates and blood alanine levels concomitantly before, during, and after a 4-h constant intravenous infusion of alanine (2 mmol.kg bw-1.h-1). Urea nitrogen synthesis rate was estimated hourly as urinary excretion corrected for gut hydrolysis and accumulation in body water. The slope of the linear relationship between urea nitrogen synthesis rate and alanine concentration represents the liver function as to conversion of amino-N, and is denoted the functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. Eight normal male subjects (age 21-27 years; body mass index 22.4-27.0 kg/m2) were randomly studied four times: 1) after 10 days of subcutaneous saline injections, 2) after 10 days of subcutaneous growth hormone injections (0.1 IU/kg per day), 3) after 10 days of triiodothyronine administration (40 micrograms on even dates, 20 micrograms on uneven dates) and 4) after 10 days given 2)+3). All injections were given at 20 00 h. RESULTS: Growth hormone decreased functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (l/h) by 30% (from 33.8 +/- 3.2 l/h (control) to 23.8 +/- 1.5 l/h (10 days growth hormone) (mean +/- SE) (ANOVA; p < 0.01)). Triiodothyronine did not change functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (36.7 +/- 3.2 l/h), but triiodothyronine given together with growth hormone abolished the effect of growth hormone functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (38.8 +/- 4.8 l/h). CONCLUSIONS: The results show that long-term growth hormone administration acts on liver by decreasing functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, thereby retaining amino-N in the body. Triiodothyronine has no effect on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, but given together with growth hormone, it abolishes the effect of growth hormone on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. A possible mechanism is the known effect of thyroid hormones in reducing the bioavailability of insulin-like growth factor-I. Thus, the effects of growth hormone and triiodothyronine on amino-N homeostasis are interdependent and to some extent exerted via interplay in their regulation of liver function as to amino-N conversion.

PMID: 8778198 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[drrman]

i've ran HGH with and without it, i personally feel T3 makes me feel soft, i don't really like it......i get great results from my HGH without it too

 

[truckdaddy]

so everyone that is adding t3 to there HGH is trying to lose weight and or fat, not build any lean muscle?

T3 makes hGH a less effective anabolic.

J Hepatol. 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9.

Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man.

Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen JO.
Department of Medicine M (Endocrinology and Diabetes), Aarhus University Hospital, Denmark.

BACKGROUND/AIMS: A decline in urea excretion is seen following long-term growth hormone administration, reflecting overall protein anabolism. Conversely, hyperthyroidism is characterized by increased urea synthesis and negative nitrogen metabolism. These seemingly opposite effects are presumed to reflect different actions on peripheral protein metabolism. The extent to which these hormonal systems have different direct effects on hepatic urea genesis has not been fully characterized. METHODS: We measured urea nitrogen synthesis rates and blood alanine levels concomitantly before, during, and after a 4-h constant intravenous infusion of alanine (2 mmol.kg bw-1.h-1). Urea nitrogen synthesis rate was estimated hourly as urinary excretion corrected for gut hydrolysis and accumulation in body water. The slope of the linear relationship between urea nitrogen synthesis rate and alanine concentration represents the liver function as to conversion of amino-N, and is denoted the functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. Eight normal male subjects (age 21-27 years; body mass index 22.4-27.0 kg/m2) were randomly studied four times: 1) after 10 days of subcutaneous saline injections, 2) after 10 days of subcutaneous growth hormone injections (0.1 IU/kg per day), 3) after 10 days of triiodothyronine administration (40 micrograms on even dates, 20 micrograms on uneven dates) and 4) after 10 days given 2)+3). All injections were given at 20 00 h. RESULTS: Growth hormone decreased functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (l/h) by 30% (from 33.8 +/- 3.2 l/h (control) to 23.8 +/- 1.5 l/h (10 days growth hormone) (mean +/- SE) (ANOVA; p < 0.01)). Triiodothyronine did not change functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (36.7 +/- 3.2 l/h), but triiodothyronine given together with growth hormone abolished the effect of growth hormone functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (38.8 +/- 4.8 l/h). CONCLUSIONS: The results show that long-term growth hormone administration acts on liver by decreasing functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, thereby retaining amino-N in the body. Triiodothyronine has no effect on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, but given together with growth hormone, it abolishes the effect of growth hormone on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. A possible mechanism is the known effect of thyroid hormones in reducing the bioavailability of insulin-like growth factor-I. Thus, the effects of growth hormone and triiodothyronine on amino-N homeostasis are interdependent and to some extent exerted via interplay in their regulation of liver function as to amino-N conversion.

PMID: 8778198 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Anthony Roberts]

T4 to T3 conversion can be faulty with GH and with hypo cal diets. That's why it's better to go with T3.

I think you've got something backwards....T3 administration can suppress GH levels, but increased GH levels are correlated with higher conversion of T4 into T3. SubClinical Gh levels often presrent with normal T4 levels and low T3 levels due to reduced peripheral conversion. Check out this article (where these claims are fully referenced):

http://www.anthony-roberts.com/th_gh.html

 

[hvylifter2]

What did you mean by 'its really starting to wear me down'? How are you you worn down.

 

[doublefister]

What did you mean by 'its really starting to wear me down'? How are you you worn down.

Just feel tired and sluggish all day. I can sleep in more and take extra naps and I will feel even more tired. I started taking T3 at night before I go to sleep about 25mcgs and I noticed a difference already after the 2nd day. I just got my T4 in and I will probably go with 50mcg and see how that works for me

 

[iron_horse]

Just feel tired and sluggish all day. I can sleep in more and take extra naps and I will feel even more tired. I started taking T3 at night before I go to sleep about 25mcgs and I noticed a difference already after the 2nd day. I just got my T4 in and I will probably go with 50mcg and see how that works for me

What are you using for T4? I was going to use 2 grains of Armour (pocine derived mix of t4/3. I am just unaware of a T4 only product. I am on 4 units per day of GH among other things and just ramped down my T3 from 150 mcgs to 25. I know its a lot. I lost alot of bf, but lost GH like effects. I was not getting the sick HGH pumps anymore.

I think T4 is the way to go with GH. The chemistry makes sense, even though the idea of T4 flys in the face of history on the boards and what all the rejuv clinics recommend.

Besides, If AR recommends it, I tend to give it the benefit of the doubt until proven wrong. I would never have believed nizoral shampoo would take care of acne, even after I read his article on it. I had tried everything short of accutane to get rid of it...no luck. I was willing to give the shampoo a shot. Three days later; acne under control.

 

[Makavelli]

I think you've got something backwards....T3 administration can suppress GH levels, but increased GH levels are correlated with higher conversion of T4 into T3. SubClinical Gh levels often presrent with normal T4 levels and low T3 levels due to reduced peripheral conversion. Check out this article (where these claims are fully referenced):

http://www.anthony-roberts.com/th_gh.html

Actually bro I've found the opposite to be true. GH will lower T3 levels. That's why it's essential to use T3 with GH.

And I said it "may" cause faulty conversion of T4 to T3. I believe it's probably due to hypo cal diets though. JMO brotha...

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Actually bro I've found the opposite to be true. GH will lower T3 levels. That's why it's essential to use T3 with GH.

And I said it "may" cause faulty conversion of T4 to T3. I believe it's probably due to hypo cal diets though. JMO brotha...

Where did you find this to be true?

Did you check out the article that I posted?

http://www.anthony-roberts.com/th_gh.html

I think I make a strong case for the opposite to be true...

 

[doublefister]

My T4 is by Uni Pharma and they are 25mcg. I popped 50mcg last night and feel fine today and thats without much sleep. I will give it a month to say for sure how much of a difference I see though. I think I will stick with 50mcg a day though. I really dont want to by messin with my thyroid, just supplementing only.

What are you using for T4? I was going to use 2 grains of Armour (pocine derived mix of t4/3. I am just unaware of a T4 only product. I am on 4 units per day of GH among other things and just ramped down my T3 from 150 mcgs to 25. I know its a lot. I lost alot of bf, but lost GH like effects. I was not getting the sick HGH pumps anymore.

I think T4 is the way to go with GH. The chemistry makes sense, even though the idea of T4 flys in the face of history on the boards and what all the rejuv clinics recommend.

Besides, If AR recommends it, I tend to give it the benefit of the doubt until proven wrong. I would never have believed nizoral shampoo would take care of acne, even after I read his article on it. I had tried everything short of accutane to get rid of it...no luck. I was willing to give the shampoo a shot. Three days later; acne under control.

 

[Triple J]

exogenous GH inhibits thyroid, indirectly due to the increase in somatostatin (hypothalamus) inhibiting TSH (pituitary). this in turn inhibits T4 output, ultimately lowering T3 levels.

the point of AR article is that the conversion of T4 to T3 is not inhibited by GH, in fact it is enhanced, therefore taking T4 (since this is the rate limited substrate) would be a more effective approach than taking T3. In fact, according to the AR article, allowing the T4 to T3 conversion to take place as a result of the presence of GH results in a more potent anabolic process.

its all theory until somebody tries it out. experience suggests T3 works pretty well certainly better than not taking any thyroid at all. but if T4 makes GH more anabolic then I am all for it. also i don't really know where to get T4 (although I have not looked that hard), whereas T3 is readily available

 

[iron_horse]

My T4 is by Uni Pharma and they are 25mcg. I popped 50mcg last night and feel fine today and thats without much sleep. I will give it a month to say for sure how much of a difference I see though. I think I will stick with 50mcg a day though. I really dont want to by messin with my thyroid, just supplementing only.

T4 by uni pharma out of greece? You might want check that, they make cytomel in 25mcg dose, which is liothyronine sodium (T3). uni pharm link Link T4 would come in higher dose, armour is up in milligrams of T4 not micrograms.

 

[kbrkbr]

T4 by uni pharma out of greece? You might want check that, they make cytomel in 25mcg dose, which is liothyronine sodium (T3). uni pharm link Link T4 would come in higher dose, armour is up in milligrams of T4 not micrograms.

Very expensive prices. Most Canadian pharms carry synthroid for a fraction of that price.

 

[iron_horse]

Very expensive prices. Most Canadian pharms carry synthroid for a fraction of that price.

I agree that synthroid is cheaper, but armour is bio-identical and not synthetic. Up to a 1/3 of people that take synthroid for low throid or no thyroid do not respond adequately. There body just doesn't see it and TSH levels go through the roof which can result in prolactin levels going up. Of course, this is not the case here, just using it to illustrate the issues with stnthroid. If I am going to take something to be synergistic with my GH, I want something I am reasonably certain is compatible with my bio-chemistry from the get go. Synth is the primary protocol used by MD's in the US, but armour is better, and they switch you over to it when they see you not responding to the synthetic. Everyone responds to armour, and porcine derived thyroid medicine is what was used forever. I just can't find it easily or at a decent price.