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Squats- How low do you go?

M

muscelove

New member
I usually put a bench down and go until my ass hits it. I hear of guys going hams to calves but when I try that I lose my balance.
 
I do that too, It is the best way I think to do squats !!!

I do them on a smith machine too !!!

you get a great pump and risk little for injury :)
 
muscelove said:
I usually put a bench down and go until my ass hits it. I hear of guys going hams to calves but when I try that I lose my balance.
Click to expand...
If you take losing your balance as a sign that you have some stabilizer muscles which are weaker than they should be then think about working them rather than ignoring them.

I used to be in the same position and was always amazed at seeing Oly lifters deep in the hole and coming out of it. Every time I tried it I was out of balance. Finally I took a step back and pretty much halved the amount of weight I had on the bar and worked my way back up. I now always squat deep into the hole and, personally, view anything less as a failed rep.

Box squats can be a good exercise too, though, and can work the posterior chain very well. Do what you're doing but actually sit on your bench. Come up then with leg and hip drive from that fully seated position.
 
First off, a pump is not conducive of a good workout.

Squats on a smith machine suck. In fact, smith machines suck.

Any exercise that is useful is going to put you at risk for injury. Show me an exercise that doesn't pose a threat to safety, and I'll show you an exercise that is completely useless.

You should not be using a bench to seat yourself on, or even to "touch-and-go" when squatting. You should work on your flexibility and lower the weight until you can comfortably sit in the hole with your hams and calves kissing one another. Buy Starting Strength by Mark Rippttoe and you'll learn all about how to squat properly.
 
I should have mentioned that box-squats aren't really a beginners' exercise. Get your hamstrings good and strong first with deep squatting and work on your PL-style squats before using box-squats.
 
A person should be able to break parallel barefoot before he starts messing with weights under the heels. If he can't get past that point alone, he's not ready to squat.
 
They target your quads and core much more than regular squats and most people seem to find it easier to get down deep with a front squat than with a regular squat. I tend to do regular squats Monday and Friday and front squats on Wednesday. You can take them heavy and still keep your posterior chain fresh.

Many prefer to use a clean grip with them on the grounds that it's a more secure position. I'm not yet in a position to comment and still use a cross-over grip but then I have little experience with Oly lifting. Maybe someone else can chip in on this.
 
I feel much more secure with a clean-grip during front squats. I never was a fan of crossing over. I didn't feel the weight was as "locked in". Maybe I did the cross wrong, but I honestly don't think grip matters. Whatever allows you the peace of mind and physical comfortability to perform the lift will work just fine.
 
I figure I go about as low as this

PHARRF.JPG


Not ATF I don't think, but low enough. And with about 1/3 of the weight ;)

Plus in Starting Strength it looks like Rippetoe doesn't obsess with ATF, only for those 'kids with extreme flexibility'. And I'm neither :p
 
Yeah, you really don't need to go ATF. The only time I've heard it's necessary is in OLing, according to MC, as the goal is the get as low as possible. Outside of that, breaking parallel and going down to where you're comfortable, and can still keep a tight arch in your back, is ideal. People tend to go too low and round their lower backs in the hole. I did this. I didn't have any real pain from it, so I'm not sure if it's detrimental or not, but I don't like the idea of having a rounded back under a heavy load.
 
the pic of Aranda squatting in this thread is a good one, good example of a nice deep squat.

Confusion on depth is mosty based on terminology, some people, lots actually, claim ATF, but they are not even getting parrallel. sitting on a bench, a normal bench, is not even parrallel for the vast majority of lifters. for most that i have seen, its something closer to a half-squat.

You SHOULD go down as far as you can. This SHOULD be something below parrallel, counting parrallel as when the top of your thigh near the hip joint goes below the top of your knee. How much below this you go is a matter of personal ability. Some are capable of going 4 or 5 inches below this and maintaining good position. They should do so. Some arent, and shouldnt worry about it.

i added two pics of a couple of my lifters going what i consider ATF, not everyone can or should go this deep. but these two pics are good representation of a really good deep squat, in good position.
 
Im no so sure that losing balance is a result of weak muscle in certain areas. I believe it could have something to do with height. Im a solid 6'2+ and find that its flat out akward for me to go ATF. When I get down there no matter how straight my back it the weight is well infront of my feet and I stumble forward.
 
I'm 6'2" too. I used to have the same problem. Reduce the weight on the bar until you can do it then work back up. If you can't even manage it with just a bar on your back then start practicing with just bodyweight and touch a chair if need be for extra stability until you can do without. I've seen a 6'8" guy squatting.
 
Glenn, good to see you reply in this thread. Do you think the rounding at the bottom of the movement is okay? I can go deep enough (4-5" below parallel) and keep my back arched. I can sink deeper than this, but at this point my lower back curves over slightly, and there's no longer that tight arch or dip in my back. I'm battling three herniated discs now, and while squatting doesn't bother my back (actually, squats and RDLs make it feel better) I'm afraid to push my luck by rounding on squats.
 
blut wump said:
If you take losing your balance as a sign that you have some stabilizer muscles which are weaker than they should be then think about working them rather than ignoring them.

I used to be in the same position and was always amazed at seeing Oly lifters deep in the hole and coming out of it. Every time I tried it I was out of balance. Finally I took a step back and pretty much halved the amount of weight I had on the bar and worked my way back up. I now always squat deep into the hole and, personally, view anything less as a failed rep.

Box squats can be a good exercise too, though, and can work the posterior chain very well. Do what you're doing but actually sit on your bench. Come up then with leg and hip drive from that fully seated position.
Click to expand...

Bump I go as deep as possible which is usually Butt to calves
 
muscelove said:
Im no so sure that losing balance is a result of weak muscle in certain areas. I believe it could have something to do with height. Im a solid 6'2+ and find that its flat out akward for me to go ATF. When I get down there no matter how straight my back it the weight is well infront of my feet and I stumble forward.
Click to expand...
Sounds to me like you're using your knees too much. Focus on pushing your hips back to start your descent. The knees will obviously have to bend to allow this, but your focal point should be your hips.

Squatting is all about the hips.
 
box squats aren't the same as the ''bally power curtsey''.. going to a regular bench is nowhere near parallel.

I used to go as deep as possible but a year of repeated hamstring pulls has pursuaded me to stick to around parallel (5 spacers on a reebok step for a box squat works for me)
 
I have my feet about 8 inches apart, and when going down, back straight, ass out, legs tucked inward. And once my thighes hit parralel to the ground I go back up. If the weight is light, or for my warmup I usually go all the way to the floor.
 
musclelove, try lifting your toes so the weight feels like it's more on your heels. You don't have to actually lift your toes, but thinking of that should help get the centre of gravity further back so you don't fall forwards. Oh, and try not to fall backwards either :)
 
The main reason why you would lose your balance at the bottom is INFLEXIBILTY of the hip (to a small extent) and (mainly) the ankle. Think about it; if you place a plate under your heels, all you are doing is altering the angle between your foot and shin as you descend.

Front squats are awesome, but most people can't do them right. I reccomend doing a few workouts with just the bar and hundreds of reps - like 20 sets of 20 reps. Make sure you use perfect form each time. This allows you to get the movement in your head perfectly - and conditions the nervous system - and builds a bit of conditioning so that your cardio-system never gets taxed when you are doing sets of 5-12 reps with real weight.
 
I used to have big problems with balance when doing squats, considering ive only been doing them right for 6 months. for the first 2 months i brought the weight down bigtime, but now my squat is just getting better and more comfortable every week.
 
Took me a good month to get good balance.2 things i did...lunges no weights to build strenght and balance and when squating think of slaming your feet into the ground when coming up its amazing how well that worked.
It takes sometime and once you get your fourm it will be a breeze! GL
 
maybe your losing balance because the bar/load is not centered over your heels...?

think of a line from shoulders down to your heels, and maintain that
 
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Maverick said:
I do that too, It is the best way I think to do squats !!!

I do them on a smith machine too !!!

you get a great pump and risk little for injury :)
Click to expand...
Maverick said it best......no injury's
 
I'm 6'3" and I go ATF. I have broken both my ankles, had two knee surgeries and I have degenerative disk disease. It can be done by anyone. My Dr. told me NEVER to squat again because of my disks. I strengthened them and I use propper form the whole range of the motion. I rarely go to 185lbs and my legs still grow. Its all about going deap, using proper form and repping it out!
My legs are bigger than all the guys 1/4 repping 315 and up in my gym.
 
people with 'bad knees' and 'bad backs' are usually in that position because of the way they lift.. refusing to strengthen the weakpoints and putting more stress on the injury with their workarounds. And people are usually giant douches in the gym so it's not suprising 99% of people out there do 1/4 squats :p

that said, again I wouldn't go below parallel... the strength boost from cutting 2" out the movement is nice as it's pushed my paused box squat up to 550 x 3 in a couple of sessions :)
 
It is hard for me to go parallel without any weights or i almost fall over i have always had this problem and theres no way i could get in the hole. I think its cuz of genetics and the way i have walked since i was little with my feet pointed outwards so my knees i just acustomed to not bending right its hard to even walk with my feet out straight in front of me but in order not to look funny i painfully do it and my whole family on my dads side has this problem do yall have any suggestions?
 
losing balance probably has more to do with a lack of ankle flexibility than muscle strength imbalance.
 
tay1506 said:
It is hard for me to go parallel without any weights or i almost fall over i have always had this problem and theres no way i could get in the hole. I think its cuz of genetics and the way i have walked since i was little with my feet pointed outwards so my knees i just acustomed to not bending right its hard to even walk with my feet out straight in front of me but in order not to look funny i painfully do it and my whole family on my dads side has this problem do yall have any suggestions?
Click to expand...

Yes, SWIM AND STRETCH.
 
I went thru this on another thread.. :worried:

I broke the mian bone in my right leg.. i need the macihne for stabilization..

i actually have an appointment with a shiropodist and a chriopractor saurdayt...

I'm also severely double jointed in a lot of my joints -my bones bend in ways a lot of ppls don't

Anthrax Invasion said:
You're gonna mess up your knees on the smith machine...
Click to expand...
 
Ah, nevermind then. You'll know better than I, what works best for you.
 
*MissFit* said:
I went thru this on another thread.. :worried:

I broke the mian bone in my right leg.. i need the macihne for stabilization..

i actually have an appointment with a shiropodist and a chriopractor saurdayt...

I'm also severely double jointed in a lot of my joints -my bones bend in ways a lot of ppls don't
Click to expand...

cutie, these guys on here that are the hardcore iron heads are sometimes really annoying. DEEP SQUAT !!!!!!! CALVE TO HAMSTRING !!!! ASS TO THE GROUND !!! like STFU for a minute.

I do smith machine/box squats and have great looking and pretty strong legs for my weight. yes, im only 170 but im in good shape and I have single digit BF%.

not all of us want thunder thigh's and a roider look. some of us just want to lift to look good and stay healthy.

I get a great pump off the smith machine doing squats
 
Maverick first off, no e-flirting. That's bad.

Second, shut your mouth. Don't come around saying we're really annoying. Get the fuck off these boards if we annoy you so much. "like STFU for a minute"? What a douche.

Smith machine will damage the knees. Box squats should be used properly, and I bet someone with your level of knowledge uses them otherwise. Keep doing them both, though. You getting injured would just be like people putting more presents than they do under my tree this X-mas, 'cause I'm so awesome. ;)

Oh, and "thunder thighs" and "'roider look"? What the hell are you talking about? Yes, full squats suddenly blow up your shoulder girdle like steroids do (due to increased androgen receptor activity) and also distend the stomach. Nice job. I'll make sure to follow your advice and never full squat again, since I certainly don't want to be accused of being on roids! :FRlol:

Also, you seem very arrogant, and it's ill-placed. I'll counter that with my well-deserved sense of superiority. You and your "great looking" :FRlol: and single digit bodyfat can burn. Please, burn. I beg you.

You can lift to look good and stay healthy. In fact, if you're trying to stay healthy, then stay off the smith. Unless, of course, longevity of your joints isn't included in that package of health.

Pump? Wow. Nice job, big boy. Go do some fucking preacher curls, 'kay? Pump your arms up real nice, Mr. Single Digit.
 
*MissFit* said:
I went thru this on another thread.. :worried:

I broke the mian bone in my right leg.. i need the macihne for stabilization..

i actually have an appointment with a shiropodist and a chriopractor saurdayt...

I'm also severely double jointed in a lot of my joints -my bones bend in ways a lot of ppls don't
Click to expand...
Good luck on your checkups Cutie. On my first visit to my current chiropractor he finished off his interrogation with "Right, let's get cracking".
 
blut wump said:
"Right, let's get cracking".
Click to expand...

:FRlol: That's awesome. I want a cool chiro. My ortho surgeon was pretty cool. Before he prescribed my MRI, he took an X-ray. Turns out my spine was perfectly straight. When he told me this, I was like "Yeah, I figured I was straight.".

You can figure out the rest. :rolleyes:
 
Maverick said:
cutie, these guys on here that are the hardcore iron heads are sometimes really annoying. DEEP SQUAT !!!!!!! CALVE TO HAMSTRING !!!! ASS TO THE GROUND !!! like STFU for a minute.

I do smith machine/box squats and have great looking and pretty strong legs for my weight. yes, im only 170 but im in good shape and I have single digit BF%.

not all of us want thunder thigh's and a roider look. some of us just want to lift to look good and stay healthy.

I get a great pump off the smith machine doing squats
Click to expand...
Sorry but when I read something this dumb I gotta pile on...

Dude, bro, homie, performing an exercise correctly has nothing to do with being a juicer or whatever other vague label you want to throw on those who espouse proper technique. As we try so hard to make clear, deep squatting is better for your health. Regardless of the goal, I'm sure no one wants to hurt themselves along the way.

In the training forum we tend to be analytical and get to why we do the things we do, rather than just blindly following the ignorance of others.

As A.I. said, keep Smithing it to parallel all you like - I imagine we'll see you back in here to ask about knee pain and how to avoid it. Then I'd bet you'll rebuke the advice you get to ditch the Smith b/c you don't want the 'thunder thighs' that "ASS TO THE GROUND!!" squatting would immediately impose upon your underwear model physique :rolleyes:.
 
You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Guinness5.0 again.

\/\/=|2|)
 
first of all........ anthrax invasion. I can tell by the way you type that your obviously very ugly and get no attention from anyone so you think your fitness knowledge makes up for your horrific looks. post a pic of yourself (body and head) and well ask all the women on this site who is more pleasing to look at. (i have posted body shots and this is my face in the avatar)

second... guinness 5.0, you and anthrax should get together because obviously you guys are not getting anything from anywhere else.... post some pics of yourself and then talk to me. I will glady post some pics of myself (head and body)

third........ please expliain how doing smith machine squats will wreck your knees...... a logical explanation would be suffice.

thanks
 
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Maverick,

I am secure enough in my manhood and straightness to come out and say you're a handsome devil.

As far as the smith machine and squatting goes, there are many others who can give a much more scientific and intelligent-sounding explanation, but I will explain as I understand it as as I see it logically and anybody else can add.

With a smith machine, number one, the stabalizers are eliminated from the movement, strong muscles and weak attachments is always an injury waiting to happen. Form-wise, the smith locks the body into a fixed and unnatural position and you cannot make natural adjustments in the movement. With a free weight squat, the movement begins by breaking at the hips and beginning to sit back, the smith can take you only one way, and thats down. This is traumatic to the knees. Further, when you squat ass to the floor, the stress is transferred from the knees, which are ill-equipped to handle stress, to the hips and glutes, which are much more powerful and capable of handling the stress. A wide-stance powerlifting squat and a box squat (REAL box squats, not some gym douche bag plopping down on a surface) are different due to the ultra-wide stance, but with your moderate-narrow stance high bar style squat, the sheering force on the knees is incredible when you cut them off high. Think of your knees acting like breaks, what happens to breaks?? They wear out.

I hope I was informative. I know everybody has different goals, but remember this, you get bulky in the kitchen, not the gym, and you get a roided look by taking roids and altering your body's chemical composition, not by using proper lifting technique.

And remember, since tonight is Friday night...friends don't let friends squat high.
 
Maverick, in addition to biggt's info, if you are really interested in learning and understanding exactly why one option might be better or healthier - the Arioch squat article is linked below. It goes into a bit more depth but the conclusion is the same. The human body is made to squat down, it's just a matter of applying resistence in the most effective and natural way. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5124176&postcount=825

If you want to delve deeper into the biomechanics, the references at the bottom are some of the better ones available.

Just to reiterate, it has nothing to do with being hardcore. It has to do with how the human body is meant to function. Even if one is only interested in bodyweight exercises to kick off the day, this is one that should absolutely be included and traditionally has been (i.e. the classic line 'deep knee bends'). The main issue is that some people and even some medical professionals like to throw around the 'squat is bad for knees' or whatever dumb statement when it's merely something they heard and are repeating without ever looking into it (and suggesting an alternative like the smith or 1/2 squatting is horrendous if even basic physics are considered). I like to ask for references and an explanation, generally good for 4-5 entertaining moments every decade or so.
 
Last edited:
Maverick said:
cutie, these guys on here that are the hardcore iron heads are sometimes really annoying. DEEP SQUAT !!!!!!! CALVE TO HAMSTRING !!!! ASS TO THE GROUND !!! like STFU for a minute.

I do smith machine/box squats and have great looking and pretty strong legs for my weight. yes, im only 170 but im in good shape and I have single digit BF%.

not all of us want thunder thigh's and a roider look. some of us just want to lift to look good and stay healthy.

I get a great pump off the smith machine doing squats
Click to expand...

Below par. is the correct way to squat, squatting deep removes the pain in the knees that alot of people feel, because they are not performing it properly.

And not everyone who squats deep and heavy has a "roider look" or is trying to achieve that look.


And to the starter of this thread, if you're loosing your balance, the weight is probably too heavy, lighten it, get your form perfect first, then start adding weight.
 
BiggT said:
Maverick,

I am secure enough in my manhood and straightness to come out and say you're a handsome devil.

As far as the smith machine and squatting goes, there are many others who can give a much more scientific and intelligent-sounding explanation, but I will explain as I understand it as as I see it logically and anybody else can add.

With a smith machine, number one, the stabalizers are eliminated from the movement, strong muscles and weak attachments is always an injury waiting to happen. Form-wise, the smith locks the body into a fixed and unnatural position and you cannot make natural adjustments in the movement. With a free weight squat, the movement begins by breaking at the hips and beginning to sit back, the smith can take you only one way, and thats down. This is traumatic to the knees. Further, when you squat ass to the floor, the stress is transferred from the knees, which are ill-equipped to handle stress, to the hips and glutes, which are much more powerful and capable of handling the stress. A wide-stance powerlifting squat and a box squat (REAL box squats, not some gym douche bag plopping down on a surface) are different due to the ultra-wide stance, but with your moderate-narrow stance high bar style squat, the sheering force on the knees is incredible when you cut them off high. Think of your knees acting like breaks, what happens to breaks?? They wear out.

I hope I was informative. I know everybody has different goals, but remember this, you get bulky in the kitchen, not the gym, and you get a roided look by taking roids and altering your body's chemical composition, not by using proper lifting technique.

And remember, since tonight is Friday night...friends don't let friends squat high.
Click to expand...

thanks man, good info
 
BTW - is there any way that Spellwin can turn off the Karma blacking crap in the 'information-centric' forums? Hell, how about just this forum. I imagine it's a chat forum thing or whatever but it makes reading threads and intelligent discussion significantly harder.
 
Madcow2 said:
BTW - is there any way that Spellwin can turn off the Karma blacking crap in the 'information-centric' forums? Hell, how about just this forum. I imagine it's a chat forum thing or whatever but it makes reading threads and intelligent discussion significantly harder.
Click to expand...

yeah, no shit
 
Yeah, especially when Maverick comes forth with his fool-proof reasoning as to why I gave him a complete ass reaming, considering he has no idea what he's talking about. :FRlol: I still stand by what I said awhile ago - people like him should be slaughtered.
 
we all know y we squat... to get huge, thick, powerful legs...

so if your're squatting for those reasons, the smith is a bad choice

it eliminates all the components that make the squat effective.
the negative is almost totally gone on a smith, your not using your abs or back to stablize yourself, fuck, you dont even need ur arms when doin a smith squat.

i personally think the leg press is superior to the smith squat.

i do suggest a few sessions on the smith to learn the proper form, but seeing there are so many varitions of the squat, your better off starting with the barbell...
 
The first time I started squatting was on the 5x5 a few months ago (which is why, sadly, my bench and my squat strength are equal) and, I have to say, when I go super-low my knees start hurting. I first started doing squats ass-to-grass and as deep as I can go to the point where my sack would be touching the ground if it weren't for my strap. I read all the scientific info posted here about how "it's a medical fact that your hips hold most of the weight at below parallel levels and that your knees have the most stress applied to them above parallel" and I bought it. However, every first set of squats was agony on my knees, and people standing 20 feet away could hear my knees cracking everytime I went down and up while doing squats that low. I recently started doing squats to only a little bit below parallel and my knees feel infinitely better than they ever did while doing them as low as I used to be doing them. I don't care about the articles or the science, my own experience has shown me that going too low is very painful on my knees.
 
I have to say, when I go super-low my knees start hurting.
Click to expand...

It's possible to squat too deep - not many have that problem though. It's also possible that you were relaxing at the bottom of the rep. Were you? That'll hurt them knees for sure :)

My knees and hips were tender for a while after a cycle using pause squats - the problem was I sat on my calves b/t ascent/descent and relaxed my legs. If I'd have kept tension in my knees/hips I doubt it would have hurt at all.
 
siamesedream, you should read Glenn's post on page 1. Optimum depth is going to vary by the individual. In addition, you have to start light - even with bodyweight. A lot of people's legs are pretty imbalanced from training on machines or doing partial squats and they aren't accustomed to the movement - this is a recipe for injury or pain in the beginning. So you need to start light, sometimes very light, and you need to find what's right for your body. All the "science" really says is that you should squat as low as you are comfortably able to and that generally means somewhere below parallel. It's not as if you need to sit on the floor to dramatically improve knee sheer and get the hams and hips in play.
 
Indeed you have to keep yourself tight at the bottom. I had knee aches when I first started going ATF until I learned not to relax at the bottom then all the aches went away.

Siamesedream: don't worry about comparisons with your bench. It only takes a few short months for the legs to kick in and leave the bench behind. You should find that they change shape quite a bit too. Stick with the deep squats; it's well worth it.
 
Madcow2 said:
siamesedream, you should read Glenn's post on page 1. Optimum depth is going to vary by the individual. In addition, you have to start light - even with bodyweight. A lot of people's legs are pretty imbalanced from training on machines or doing partial squats and they aren't accustomed to the movement - this is a recipe for injury or pain in the beginning. So you need to start light, sometimes very light, and you need to find what's right for your body. All the "science" really says is that you should squat as low as you are comfortably able to and that generally means somewhere below parallel. It's not as if you need to sit on the floor to dramatically improve knee sheer and get the hams and hips in play.
Click to expand...

This is so true. Also, you need to make sure you break at the hips and don't drive down and forward......you also need to make sure the weight doesn't 'fold you in'.....all this can be avoided by taking Mad Cow's advice and starting light, even if it is pathetically light. Nobody is quoting and relying on science. Take it for what it's worth, but I have been squatting ATF since I was 13, I am 26 now and I have never had knee problems.
 
Geeze, I wish I could somehow pay you guys back. This board has given me such a rediculous amount of friendly advice I feel guilty.


And I'm glad to know that I don't have to go as absolutely low as is humanly possible with my maximum flexibility to get maximum growth. That's what I thought all of you meant when you talked about deep-squatting. I always go below parallel when I squat now, but I used to go FAR below parallel when I first started which is when my knees would start cracking and people would turn around and wonder what all that popping noise was.
 
Anthrax Invasion said:
You should not be using a bench to seat yourself on, or even to "touch-and-go" when squatting.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%. I personally Know 2 people that have broken thier tailbones.
 
When you go atf are you flatfooted the whole time becasue when i go that low i go to my toes. I was practicing today with no weight and with only the bar and cannot go atf ang keep my feet flat. Also are your fet angled out as you go down or do they point straight.
 
Your feet stay flat, yes. Drive through the heels. Me, personally, I use a shoulder-width stance with my toes pointing very slightly outward. Others recommend a stance a bit outside shoulder-width, with the toes pointing about 30 degrees outward. Both work well, and you shouldn't nitpick. Just do what feels most comfortable, within reason (i.e., avoid wide-stanced PLing squats, unless your goal is to PL).
 
Play with width of stance and foot flare until you find something comfortable.

Try to hold the bar lower on your traps. This might not make a lot of difference with an empty bar but with a loaded bar can help a lot to keep you on your heels.
 
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