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Some musings of mine - Athiests answer me this, cell division

  • Thread starter Thread starter Frackal
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Frackal

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Quick background, the process of cellular maturation and division, (mitosis, meiosis, etc) is an extremely complicated yet linear set of processes that seems to resemble the way a computer functions, with 'switches' ... or checkpoints.. for example, during anaphase, the seperation of the 2 sister choromosones (chromatids), a chemical checkpoint ensures that all the chromosones are properly attached to the spindle before dividing.... A signal from the (kinetechores) of chromosones that have not yet properly attached themselves to the spindle deactivates the protein complex that initiates the division...


What is the point? Well, cells are not intelligent entities, they are basically little automated factories that respond only as programmed...yet there is some force that drives these millions of little cells to form an extremely complex organism that for all intents and purposes functions beautifully, all based on this chemical programming which has its roots in DNA...

Now a computer, which is similar to a cell, cannot program itself because it is nothing more than an organism that reacts ... it cannot act ... or can it?

Athiests, what is the force behind this phenomenon? Everyone argues about whether evolution took place or not, I think it is clear that it has...but no one asks WHY

-Why do cells evolve at all? What made cells evolve, what made or microscopic ancestors come out of the oceans onto the land?


....... ? .......
 
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No - I am not asking about the intricacies of cellular division, I am asking a philosophical question about one incidence in nature that seems to be something beautifully designed by an intelligence of some sort
 
I would guess that mutations occur periodically. Some are a success and reproduce until a "new" life form takes place that is significantly different than its cellular ancestor. Being able to exist out of water would be a successful adaptation because it allows a life form to escape from the ever present predators. Eventually the new form evolved to live entirely on land. Unfortunately however (for them), it is apparent that several "predator" life forms were also able to adapt to a terrestial life.
 
In your original post, you asked about a certain force in relation to this phenomenon, and since forces are studed in all of the physical sciences as well as engineering, I thought that a scientist would be best qualified to answer the question. If this is a philosophical question, then it is to be answered by experts in metaphysics, some of whom are atheists and some are not.
Is this really a philosophical qestion rather than a scientific one? If there is something about the physical world that is mysterious then it is the job of the scientists to discover the cause-and-effect relationships in what we observe. There are many gaps in our understanding of our natural history, but to sit back and chalk it up to the "God of the Gaps" is to give up on this rational mode of inquiry and, frankly, to surrender to ignorance.
 
Frackal said:
I am asking a philosophical question about one incidence in nature that seems to be something beautifully designed by an intelligence of some sort

You just answered the question yourself. We are the original test tube babies, genetic constructs, created by a vastly superior being. Go search and read on Zecharia Sitchin, it will expand your
horizons, big time.
 
It's logical is why. Humans came up with the idea of a computer based on what they have learned about life in general and the science inherent in it. Man, I'm high as hell and can't remember what I was talking about...I just spent like 1 minute trying to remember what I was talking about but now I realize I wrote all this down so I can just look back up the page and find out what I said...that rules.
 
Actually I'm mainly waiting for HS and Code's responses..


The basic premise is, by what method, force, cause, whatever cells evovle from the believed simple single celled organism into a massive eco system that functions with incredible effiency, beauty and IMO genius of construct and design.... I mean look at DNA itself...it is a massive database of traits and characteristics, organizational specifications and commands, which is read by a non intelligent entity, the cell.. and the result of which an entire organism is constructed that performs a mindblowing array of complex tasks each second of each hour of each day....

My question to athiests is:

- Do you believe there is a force driving this occurence?

or

- Do you believe its just a simple process of elimination and mutations as testosterone boy described above?
 
It seems like you are asking about how/why it is possible that a seemingly intelligent being can be made up of unintelligent components. It also seems you are inferring some kind of intelligent design, but I'm not sure --- maybe you are just asking the question with a completely open mind. Lastly, it seems your questions involve consciousness.

Firstly, look at evolution by natural selection. This is an intelligent system, with simple components that seemingly completely explain it. There are artificial life computer programs that behave as expected (albeit in a more simple manner than the complicated world), based on evolutionary theory.

Secondly, the fact that cells seem to be "designed" and work like machines supports the idea that there is no external force or higher power controlling things. If cells behave in a consistent and mechanized manner, then how can a higher power have any effect or relevance on the world? That would necessitate inconsistency. And maybe the only way for a process to exist is if a mechanized system exists to support it. Both evolution and design could cause this, as far as we know. Also, as Nathan said, we glean ideas from life.

Thirdly, the physical world is identifiable and measurable by science while the conscious world is identifiable and measurable by our experience. These two aspects of our world are both... mysterious, if you will. We don't know how they interact. I don't think this is cause for a belief in an animate and distinct higher power.
 
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Frackal said:
My question to athiests is:

- Do you believe there is a force driving this occurence?

or

- Do you believe its just a simple process of elimination and mutations as testosterone boy described above?

The driving force is the environment........selection.

Evolution is a complex theory.........far more complex than most people realise. There are many factors that could affect which organisms survive.......it doesnt always take mutations (this idea is the one supported by Dawkins, but many people disagree with this). Sometimes it is a matter of dumb luck (avoiding natural disasters through luck or having a widespread population). I think the idea of simple mutations being the only cause for long term change is too simple and somewhat narrow minded......there are other factors to be considered (all of which work within the laws of Nature).
 
I have a question......

Why is it that everything that is unexplainable (for the time being) always attributed to god?
 
you're asking the wrong people. An atheist will answer the question with 'i don't know, wait for doctors to figure it out'. a religious person will say 'god' and drop the subject. That is one of the reasons why i am an atheist.
 
If you want answers to most questions reguarding whether God exists or not just go to http://www.doesgodexist.org there are some helpful things said there. As it is ,not all things can be explained, it all rests on faith. most ppl i have spoken to dont really beleive in God per se, however they will admit to beleiving in a " higher power "
 
Mutations are random. For every living thing that has had cells mutated to fit its environment, the growth of fur for example, there is many others who had mutations that worked against he organism and caused it to perish. The living beings that are here today are just a few lucky ones who happened to mutate favorably. If there was a force behind this process, I don’t think it would waste its time mutating failures. It would be more precise.
 
what mutations worked against the organism to cause it to perish? im not trying to get on a religious kick im honestly curious
 
so a disfavorable mutation would be...death? if an animal dies of natural causes it has a disfavorable mutation. nevertheless this conversation is getting no where. The question , if i ever got to ask it , i want to ask is do you believe in God? Or are you product of a random chance mutation. Or what is your theory behind how this earth came to be and how you came to be? that is what i would like to hear from an educated man like yourself.
 
Mattavelli said:
so a disfavorable mutation would be...death? if an animal dies of natural causes it has a disfavorable mutation. nevertheless this conversation is getting no where. The question , if i ever got to ask it , i want to ask is do you believe in God? Or are you product of a random chance mutation. Or what is your theory behind how this earth came to be and how you came to be? that is what i would like to hear from an educated man like yourself.

I do not have the intellectual capacity to learn, process and understand physics, astronomy and geology at a level that would be necessary to answer such a question.

With that being said, I will say that if a "God" exists, he is neither Omnipotent nor omniscient. The earth developed from what leading scientists call the "Big Bang."

There have been millions of years of evolution on earth. The sun is 5 billion years old and it is considered a new medium sized star. Our galaxy is one of millions and is the equivalent of one grain of sand in a large beach. As humans have seen, occurrences with minute probabilities eventually occur over a infinite amount of time. Therefore, it is very possible that we are an anomaly or that we are one of many anomalies.

That is what I think about that (in a nutshell)
 
the big bang Theory was thought to exist because it explains why distant galaxies are traveling away from us at great speeds but it has a huge hole in it. As it is most athiests believe that matter is " self existent " and if the big bang theory did occur then where the the matter come from to begin with? with no outside force , no energy, and no intelligence matter would have had to become existent. on the other hand the earth has been " proved " to be millions of years old by examining strata which , oddly enough, can be replicated to the equivelent of 5 billion years of aging in a matter of minutes.
 
As humans have seen, occurrences with minute probabilities eventually occur over a infinite amount of time.

if this is true is still would not explain where the first atom of matter came from. If nothing is there to begin time certainly is not going to make matter appear from no where.
 
Mattavelli said:
the big bang Theory was thought to exist because it explains why distant galaxies are traveling away from us at great speeds but it has a huge hole in it. As it is most athiests believe that matter is " self existent " and if the big bang theory did occur then where the the matter come from to begin with? with no outside force , no energy, and no intelligence matter would have had to become existent. on the other hand the earth has been " proved " to be millions of years old by examining strata which , oddly enough, can be replicated to the equivelent of 5 billion years of aging in a matter of minutes.

If your question is "Where did the original matter (that formed the big bang) come from," well, then I do not have an answer.
 
heres a quote by a friend of mine

" In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong, invalidating all of chemistry. All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong, invalidating all of physics. All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong, invalidating all of electronics and demanding that your TV set not work!! Your television set may not work, but that is not the reason! In order to believe matter is uncaused, one has to discard known laws and principles of science. No reasonable person is going to do this simply to maintain a personal atheistic position."


I just wanted to try and make you think. Maybe you dont care at all, but your an intelligent person and to think that you are a product of chance...thats not logical to me darwin himself admitted that the formation of the eye to random chance mutation was " obsurd in the highest degree ". Even still he held his beliefs till he died i dont think he ever recanted as is rumored. Nevertheless you will beleive what you believe. I just hope you are right.
Good day my friend
 
Mattavelli said:
I just wanted to try and make you think. Maybe you dont care at all, but your an intelligent person and to think that you are a product of chance...thats not logical to me darwin himself admitted that the formation of the eye to random chance mutation was " obsurd in the highest degree ". Even still he held his beliefs till he died i dont think he ever recanted as is rumored. Nevertheless you will beleive what you believe. I just hope you are right.
Good day my friend

You did make me think and I appreciate that. It seems that there are a few things I need to consider before I dismiss faith in God because of scientific data. Good night, brother.
 
Everything moving in this universe was moved by something else.


What then was the uncaused cause?
 
the purpose of my statements reguarding the universe is that there was a beginning, however athiests maintain that matter is self existing and has not been created, but these same athiests believe in a theory like the big bang...if you disect Mr Hawkings theory and reverse the big bang it would bring the universe to a point , which scientists call singularity, which also would signify a beginning. Of course unless you still wanna hold that matter came from nothing to begin with. As i believe God was that cause if that is what your looking for in your question. God could have very well created the world using something like the Big Bang theory but as is told in the Bible this is not true. And as is the Big Bang is still a theory.
 
and if you still want to maintain everything is mere chance Here are some facts i have found. I cannot validate these but i found them interesting, that is if in fact they are true.

"1 Gravitational coupling constant If larger: No stars less than 1.4 solar masses, hence short stellar lifespans
If smaller: No stars more than 0.8 solar masses, hence no heavy element production
2 Strong nuclear force coupling constant If larger: No hydrogen; nuclei essential for life are unstable
If smaller: No elements other than hydrogen
3 Weak nuclear force coupling constant If larger: All hydrogen is converted to helium in the big bang, hence too much heavy elements
If smaller: No helium produced from big bang, hence not enough heavy elements
4 Electromagnetic coupling constant If larger: No chemical bonding; elements more massive than boron are unstable to fission
If smaller: No chemical bonding
5 Ratio of protons to electrons formation If larger: electromagnetism dominates gravity preventing galaxy, star, and planet formation
If smaller: Electromagnetism dominates gravity preventing galaxy, star, and planet formation
6 Ratio of electron to proton mass If larger: No chemical bonding
If smaller: No chemical bonding
7 Expansion rate of the universe If larger: No galaxy formation
If smaller: Universe collapses prior to star formation
8 Entropy level of universe If larger: No star condensation within the proto-galaxies
If smaller: No proto-galaxy formation
9 Mass density of the universe If larger: Too much deuterium from big bang, hence stars burn too rapidly
If smaller: No helium from big bang, hence not enough heavy elements
10 Age of the universe If older: No solar-type stars in a stable burning phase in the right part of the galaxy
If younger: Solar-type stars in a stable burning phase would not yet have formed
11 Initial uniformity of radiation If smoother: Stars, star clusters, and galaxies would not have formed
If coarser: Universe by now would be mostly black holes and empty space
12 Average distance between stars If larger: Heavy element density too thin for rocky planet production
If smaller: Planetary orbits become destabilized
13 Solar luminosity If increases too soon: Runaway green house effect
If increases too late: Frozen oceans
14 Fine structure constant* If larger: No stars more than 0.7 solar masses
If smaller: No stars less then 1.8 solar masses
15 Decay rate of the proton If greater: Life would be exterminated by the release of radiation
If smaller: Insufficient matter in the universe for life
16 12C to 16O energy level ratio If larger: Insufficient oxygen
If smaller: Insufficient carbon
17 Decay rate of 8Be If slower: Heavy element fusion would generate catastrophic explosions in all the stars
If faster: No element production beyond beryllium and, hence, no life chemistry possible
18 Mass difference between the neutron and the proton If greater: Protons would decay before stable nuclei could form
If smaller: Protons would decay before stable nuclei could form
19 Initial excess of nucleons over anti-nucleons If greater: Too much radiation for planets to form
If smaller: Not enough matter for galaxies or stars to form
20 Galaxy type If too elliptical: Star formation ceases before sufficient heavy element buildup for life chemistry
If too irregular: Radiation exposure on occasion is too severe and/or heavy elements for life chemistry are not available
21 Parent star distance from center of galaxy If farther: Quantity of heavy elements would be insufficient to make rocky planets
If closer: Stellar density and radiation would be too great
22 Number of stars in the planetary system If more than one: Tidal interactions would disrupt planetary orbits
If less than one: Heat produced would be insufficient for life
23 Parent star birth date If more recent: Star wuld not yet have reached stable burning phase
If less recent: Stellar system would not yet contain enough heavy elements
24 Parent star mass If greater: Luminosity would change too fast; star would burn too rapidly
If less: Range of distances appropriate for life would be too narrow; tidal forces would disrupt the rotational period for a planet of the right distance; uv radiation would be inadequate for plants to make sugars and oxygen
25 Parent star age If older: Luminosity of star would change too quickly
If younger: Luminosity of star would change too quickly
26 Parent star color If redder: Photosynthetic response would be insufficient
If bluer: Photosynthetic response would be insufficient
27 Supernovae eruptions If too close: Life on the planet would be exterminated
If too far: Not enough heavy element ashes for the formation of rocky planets
If too infrequent: Not enough heavy element ashes for the formation of rocky planets
If too frequent: Life on the planet would be exterminated
28 Whiete dwarf binaries If too few: Insufficient fluorine produced for life chemistry to proceed
If too many: Disruption of planetary orbits from stellar density; life on the planet would be exterminated
29 Surface gravity (escape velocity) If stronger: Atmosphere would retain too much ammonia and methane
If weaker: Planet's atmosphere would lose too much water
30 Distance from parent star If farther: Planet would be too cool for a stable water cycle
If closer: Planet would be too warm for a stable water cycle
31 Inclination of orbit If too great: Temperature differences on the planet would be too extreme
32 Orbital eccentricity If too great: Seasonal temperature differences would be too extreme
33 Axial tilt If greater: Surface temperature differences would be too great
If less: Surface temperature differences would be too great
34 Rotation period If longer: Diurnal temperature differences would be too great
If shorter: Atmospheric wind velocities would be too great
35 Gravitational interaction with a moon If greater: Tidal effects on the oceans, atmosphere, and rotational period would be too severe
If less: Orbital obliquity changes would cause climatic instabilities
36 Magnetic field If stronger: Electromagnetic storms would be too severe
If weaker: Inadequate protection from hard steller radiation
37 Thickness of crust If thicker: Too much oxygen would be transferred from the atmosphere to the crust
If thinner: Volcanic and tectonic activity would be too great
38 Albedo (ratio of reflected light to total amount falling on surface) If greater: Runaway ice age would develop
If less: Runaway green house effect would develop
39 Oxygen to nitrogen ratio in atmosphere If larger: Advanced life functions would proceed too quickly
If smaller: Advanced life functions would proceed too slowly
40 Carbon dioxide level in atmosphere If greater: Runaway greenhouse effect would develop
If less: Plants would not be able to maintain efficient photosynthesis
41 Water vapor level in atmosphere If greater: Runaway greenhouse effect would develop
If less: Rainfall would be too meager for advanced life on the land
42 Ozone level in atmosphere If greater: Surface temperatures would be too low
If less Surface temperatures would be too high; there would be too much uv radiation at the surface
43 Atmospheric electric discharge rate If greater: Too much fire destruction would occur
If less: Too little nitrogen would be fixed in the atmosphere
44 Oxygen quantity in atmosphere If greater: Plants and hydrocarbons would burn up too easily
If less: Advanced animals would have too little to breathe
45 Oceans to continents ratio If greater: Diversity and complexity of life-forms would be limited
If smaller: diversity and complexity of life-forms would be limited
46 Soil mineralization If too nutrient poor: diversity and complexity of life-forms would be limited
If too nutrient rich: Diversity and complexity of life-forms would be limited
47 Seismic activity If greater: Too many life-forms would be destroyed
If less: Nutrients on ocean floors (from river runoff) would not be recycled to the continents through tectonic uplift
*(a function of three other fundamental constants, Planck's constant, the velocity of light, and the electron charge each of which, therefore, must be fine-tuned) "
 
Mattavelli said:
God could have very well created the world using something like the Big Bang theory but as is told in the Bible this is not true.

Do you believe that the Bing Bang theory is wrong because it is not mentioned in the bible or what did you mean with that statement?
 
"the earth has been proven to be millions of years old."

Hogwash
Bullshit
Bunch of Malarky
Garbage
Lies
Deception
Witchcraft


same with the sun being "5 billion years old"

Scientists and athiests are doing the same thing that religous people are. Simplifying a complex reality so they "understand and feel comfortable" with it.

Believing their dogma requires more leaps of faith than being religous.
 
Do you believe that the Bing Bang theory is wrong because it is not mentioned in the bible or what did you mean with that statement?

The Bible mentions a pattern of creation in a matter of 7 days , i do not think that the big bang would work so quickly. So No i do not think the theory is correct.Nor do i think the earth is millions of years old or the sun.

what do you beleive.
 
Mattavelli said:



what do you beleive.

I believe that we are fucked up.

It was interesting to speculate on the origins of the universe and life. It is also a total waste of time.

We really have no idea about this stuff...just theories. I don't believe anything except that something exists with Godlike characteristics. So I believe in God you might say.

That doesn't mean that I believe the Bible. It has suffered through so many translations by people who read their own ideas into it that it can't necessarily be taken literally.

I think God is pretty cool. He created people for amusement, his own private TV set. I think God wants us to have fun and be happy.
 
We really have no idea about this stuff...just theories. I don't believe anything except that something exists with Godlike characteristics. So I believe in God you might say.

Dont take what im about to say as offensive, but many things have been proved and are laws of science not theories like the theory of big bang or the theory of evolution. and the Bible in most places is not to be taken literally too many people more than likely those like you who read it , read it in black and white.

That doesn't mean that I believe the Bible. It has suffered through so many translations by people who read their own ideas into it that it can't necessarily be taken literally.

learn greek and hebrew and go to the original. Everyone who reads the Bible develops their own sense of what it means.

I think God is pretty cool. He created people for amusement, his own private TV set. I think God wants us to have fun and be happy.

so then you are a deist?
 
Logically there is a need for something supernatural, something neither math, pysics or chemistry or logic can explain. A god, if you will.

this is logical because science can never explain the reason of existance or reality. even if all of reality could be brought down to 1 formula, 1 equation, why is there a universe for this equation to describe?

cell division is only one so small example of the complexity of biology. there is no doubt that life is complex, too complex for us to ever totally understand it. Does this prove anything? does this prove the evolution theory is wrong?

Ive read a lot and written essays on evolutionism, creationalism and their arguments. A sure thing is that evolution happens. 100%. what would be REALLY strange and unexplainable and contradict all observations is if evolution did not happen.

whether its the only thing, i dont know.

What i can not understand is people attacking knowledge of the age of earth and the sun. These are not just wild theories, they are truely conclusions. of course you can never be accurate, but they wont be substancially wrong.

Millions of years not right? The human race has existed for 3 million years! just cuz we dont know much of ourselves from longer than a few thousand years ago doesn`t mean we werent there. Say that even if today, in our advanced, great developed society, what if all of us died, except for a small few somewhere.

What would be left of our society in 2 million years. ill type that for you
2000000 years. what kind of structures have we built that will survive 2 million years of erosion, climate changes, earthquakes, chemical breakdown?

would researchers in 2 million years be able to conclude there was a civilisation, or what it was all about?
 
Millions of years not right? The human race has existed for 3 million years! just cuz we dont know much of ourselves from longer than a few thousand years ago doesn`t mean we werent there. Say that even if today, in our advanced, great developed society, what if all of us died, except for a small few somewhere.

no that is not right, prove that the earth is millions of years old. what method did you , or a scientist use, and show me the references. radiometric, radiocarbon? strata? you have heard of these methods as many have but few people know much about how innacurate the methods are and yet..they are made to look incomprehensibly correct. if you want me to go into vast detail about the dating methods i will. Most ppl just believe what their told anyway id like to think i beleive what ive seen proved. I wasnt raised religious and i think if i were i would just go by " what my parents told me " thats crap and anyone who claims to believe in something better be able to back it up. but as it is not all things can exaclty be explained like if someone on here said " you say matter came from no where and you beleive in God so where did God come from? " i couldnt answer that exactly but i could give you a visual of how that works.
 
What would be left of our society in 2 million years. ill type that for you

who cares what would come of our society in 2 million years if everyone , but 2 ppl were eradicated. Also no man knows the future so who is to tell what would become of us.

Ive read a lot and written essays on evolutionism, creationalism and their arguments. A sure thing is that evolution happens. 100%. what would be REALLY strange and unexplainable and contradict all observations is if evolution did not happen

well of course evolution did take place , by that i mean evolving growing not darwins theory of evolution.

What i can not understand is people attacking knowledge of the age of earth and the sun. These are not just wild theories, they are truely conclusions. of course you can never be accurate, but they wont be substancially wrong.

they are substancially wrong because the methods used to date such things have been disproven. it was not too long ago that i read about scientists examining a body that was said to have walked the earth over a million years ago..but somehow shortly thereafter they fould a miliary medallion buried where the body was. Hmm maybe we dont kno much about ourselves that far back if in fact we did exist a million or so years ago ..but i dont think we had a military then... now if that story is true then their dating methods are , safe to say, pretty far off. other than that is rests on faith in the unseen. Either you believe it or you dont but the least you ( everyone ) can do is go deep with what you beleive. Try the best you can to disprove creationsim and that God exists. the design of the universe, the design of nearly everything. the ethic diversity where did that come from. and all of the like.
 
Mattavelli: you say that radiocarbon dating and other methods used by scientists are producing false information in regards to the Earth's age. Please tell me how old you think the Earth might be and why you have come to believe this.

Also, people incessantly argue about the earth's age, or the age of this fossil or that star. It is kind of strange to think that the units of time which are so ardently fought over are nothing but the elliptical movement of our planet around an insignificant star, hidden in a galaxy of which there are 250 billion. Just seems funny when you think of it that way.
 
Kalashnikov said:
Mattavelli: you say that radiocarbon dating and other methods used by scientists are producing false information in regards to the Earth's age. Please tell me how old you think the Earth might be and why you have come to believe this.

Also, people incessantly argue about the earth's age, or the age of this fossil or that star. It is kind of strange to think that the units of time which are so ardently fought over are nothing but the elliptical movement of our planet around an insignificant star, hidden in a galaxy of which there are 250 billion. Just seems funny when you think of it that way.

Whoa...now they are claiming to know how many stars their are? 250 billion? Shoot...we have no idea how many PEOPLE are on earth.

The radiocarbon dating is witchcraft....referring to previous other posts. "Man is 3 million years old." LOL! Yea...give or take about 2.9 million years.

We thought we had all the answers 100 years ago. The chief of the patent office said there was nothing else to invent for example. If we are still around in 100 years...maybe we will know something then.
 
Testosterone boy said:


Whoa...now they are claiming to know how many stars their are? 250 billion? Shoot...we have no idea how many PEOPLE are on earth.



The numbers I have heard are around 100 billion estimated galaxies and around 2-5 billion stars in each galaxy. I don't take these numbers at face value, but the figures do give you an idea of the size of our observable universe.



The radiocarbon dating is witchcraft....referring to previous other posts. "Man is 3 million years old." LOL! Yea...give or take about 2.9 million years.

Please explain why this form of dating is not accurate.
 
Some people believe that the amount of C14 generated hasn´t been constant during time.

Also , due to the way the test is made, it becomes inaccurate with very old things.
 
"1. Radiodating

There is a basic pattern that occurs in the decay of radioactive substances. In each of these disintegration systems, the "parent" or original radioactive substance, gradually decays into "daughter" substances and this process is irreversible. The theory asserts that by measuring the amount of parent and daughter elements in a given sample and knowing the decay rate, one might be able to calculate the time elapsed from its formation.

Several types of radiodating methods are used today, but when applied to the same sample, they give different dates[1]. A very good example of how scientists interpret the results of their radiodating method is presented in reference [2]. They select only the "most reasonable" dates, the ones that agree with the evolutionary theory of long ages and discard the ones that do not fit in. Well, this method is far from an objective and precise scientific approach!

These special dating methods are seriously flawed: too many assumptions are made without any factual evidence. We can easily show the problems arising from the disregard of the following:

The parent and daughter products could easily have been contaminated during their long decay process underground. For the results to be accurate, the systems had to be closed during the decay process, but this doesn't happen in nature.
Nobody was there at the beginning to make sure that no daughter products were present in a certain rock, whereas the radiodating method assumes exactly this. It is impossible to know what had initially been in a given piece of radioactive mineral.
The decay rate is not constant. Many environmental factors, such as pressure, changes in cosmic radiation level, nearby radioactive materials, high temperatures influence it [3]. In one of their studies, Westinghouse Laboratories have been able to change the decay rates simply by placing inactive iron next to radioactive lead.
Part of the radioactive substances could have been leached out. Experiments show that even distilled water and weak acids can do this.[4]
Rocks could have been altered by sediment displacements.[5]
A few examples of the accuracy of this method:
Hawaiian lava flows known to be less than two centuries old have been dated at up to 3 BILLION years old!
Laboratories that "date" rocks insist on knowing in advance the "evolutionary age" of the strata from which the samples were taken—this way, they know which dates to accept as "reasonable" and which to ignore.

2. Radiocarbon Dating

Wollard F. Libby discovered the carbon 14 method in 1946, while working at the University of Chicago. This was considered to be a great breakthrough in the dating of plant and animal remains of earlier times. It is the special method used by scientists to date organic materials not older than a few thousand years.

The radioactive carbon isotope (C-14) called radiocarbon is generated in the upper atmosphere by cosmic rays. Living organisms accumulate radioactive carbon from the atmosphere via carbon dioxide (CO2) during their lifetime. This accumulation ceases at the death of the organism and the radiocarbon starts decaying into inert carbon. By measuring the ratio of radioactive and stable carbon in an organic material, and ASSUMING what the original ratio was, one can calculate the time of death of that organism.

Let's hear from those people, who actually use this method, how its results are interpreted:

Pensee, 3 (Spring), p.44.:

If a C-14 date supports our theories, we put it in the main text. If it does not entirely contradict them, we put it in a footnote. And if it is completely 'out of date,' we just drop it.
The accuracy of this method is just catastrophic [6]. Just consider the following ridiculous findings[7]:
mortar from the 785 year old Oxford Castle in England was dated at 7,370 years old
freshly killed seals were dated at 1,300 years and seals dead for 30 years at 4,600 years
living snails being dated at 2,300 years old
new wood cut from growing trees after few days was dated at 10,000 years
muscle tissue from beneath the scalp of a mummified musk was dated to 24,000 years, while the the radiocarbon age of hair from a hind limb was established to be 17,200 years—a rather long living animal as it appears!
We cannot just assume that the C-14 concentration in the carbon dioxide cycle has always been constant, that the cosmic ray flux has always been the same [8] and that no contamination of the sample occurred. These assumptions are obviously erroneous, otherwise how can one explain that hair from a mammoth has been dated at 26,000 years while the peat right above the carcass at only 5,610 years?
Because of the short half-life of C-14, this method is only suitable for dating relatively young samples. Practically, any organic material would be left with an undetectable amount of radioactive carbon after 10 half-lives of C-14. This means that most of the fossils claimed to be millions of years old, would have to show an "infinite" age. It is not so. Radiocarbon dating of coal deposits gave ages less than 50,000 years, when the evolutionary theory claimed them to be millions of years old.

Conclusion

After the discovery of the radiocarbon dating method, scientists tried to correlate their results with the dates "established" a century before. But they have not been able to do so. Of thousands of measurements, they have been able to correlate only three. These three successes were enough to make the original century old fossil/strata dating "scientific". It is on this basis that evolutionists claim that the fossiliferous strata have been dated by radioactive minerals! "


does that give you a better idea i pulled that from a website which has references i can post if you like. i dont know about how we could count the stars...nor do i believe we can even estimate. All you can say for sure is that there are alot of them
 
Mattavelli: you say that radiocarbon dating and other methods used by scientists are producing false information in regards to the Earth's age. Please tell me how old you think the Earth might be and why you have come to believe this.

by asking this i assume if i tell you that the earth is *****years old you will say " if most methods are incorrect how did you come up with that " right? I beleive that the earth is no more than 30,000 years old due to geneology of The Bible. but quite honestly i do not care how old the earth is..to me that is not a salvation issue. The reason i have been speaking about how old the earth is was to disprove the belief of it being millions of years old and to disprove the method used to date it in that manner. as to why i have come to beleive it is no more than 30,000 years...man ...( takes a deep breath ) if you really wanna know email me and ill tell you everything i can.
 
I'm sure that this system of dating has its flaws and shortcomings. That said, these various forms of dating are the best tools we have with which to analyze our surroundings.

It would be interesting if someone who believes in a "young earth" could supply some proof that the earth is not as old as scientists believe. Most people who argue this try to get some of their historical information from the Bible and correlate it with some twisted pseudo-science to make their point. Regardless of the effectiveness of today's dating methods, I will choose these over "The Bible" any day.
 
"As far as the plausibility of evolution is concerned, it really doesn't make any difference if the earth is 10 billion years old or 10 thousand years old. Indeed, if the whole of evolution were reduced to nothing more than the chance production of a single copy of any one biologically useful protein, there would be insufficient time and material in the known universe to make this even remotely likely. Time by itself simply does not make the hopeless evolutionary scenario of chance and natural selection more reasonable. Imagine if a child were to claim that he alone could build a Boeing 747 airplane from raw material in 10 seconds, and another were to claim he could do it in 10 days. Would we consider the later less foolish then the former, simply because he proposed spending nearly a million times more time at the task? Our Creator tells that "the fool has said in his heart, there is no God.'"

theres a nice quote for you reiterating what i stated just before that.


Regardless of the effectiveness of today's dating methods, I will choose these over "The Bible" any day.

regardless of the effectiveness...if methods to prove dating are completely off you will take them over the Bible why.
 
Just wanted to say it's discussions like these that make my day a little bit better. Just reading the responses and different viewpoints is enlightening.
 
teen1216 said:
Just wanted to say it's discussions like these that make my day a little bit better. Just reading the responses and different viewpoints is enlightening.

What the hell man?

It is our mission in life to corrupt, demoralize, demonize, disenchant, and destroy your faith and trust. Get on it guys!
 
Juiceman12 said:
"1. Radiodating

I HAVE PUT TEXT IN YOURS........DENOTED BY //

There is a basic pattern that occurs in the decay of radioactive substances. In each of these disintegration systems, the "parent" or original radioactive substance, gradually decays into "daughter" substances and this process is irreversible. The theory asserts that by measuring the amount of parent and daughter elements in a given sample and knowing the decay rate, one might be able to calculate the time elapsed from its formation.

Several types of radiodating methods are used today, but when applied to the same sample, they give different dates[1].

//THIS IS INEVITABLE AS DIFFERENT RADIOACTIVE MATERIALS HAVE DIFFERENT DECAY RATES. IT IS NO GOOD USING A MATERIAL WITH A HALF LIFE OF 1 SECOND TO LOOK AT A SAMPLE THAT IS MILLIONS OF YEARS OLD. ERRORS CREEP IN ALL OF THE TIME.....THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU CAN DISREGARD THE EVIDENCE. HOW DIFFERENT WERE THE DATES?

A very good example of how scientists interpret the results of their radiodating method is presented in reference [2]. They select only the "most reasonable" dates, the ones that agree with the evolutionary theory of long ages and discard the ones that do not fit in. Well, this method is far from an objective and precise scientific approach!

//LOL......A BLATANT MISREPRESENTATION. THIS IS DONE SOMETIMES........BUT BY NO MEANS ALWAYS.

These special dating methods are seriously flawed: too many assumptions are made without any factual evidence. We can easily show the problems arising from the disregard of the following:

The parent and daughter products could easily have been contaminated during their long decay process underground.

//CONTAMINATED BY WHAT EXACTLY? I AM TRULY INTERESTED IN THE ANSWER TO THIS BECAUSE I CANT THINK OF A WAY THAT A SAMPLE COULD BECOME CONTAMINATED IN ORDER TO SKEW THE RESULTS.

For the results to be accurate, the systems had to be closed during the decay process, but this doesn't happen in nature.
Nobody was there at the beginning to make sure that no daughter products were present in a certain rock, whereas the radiodating method assumes exactly this.

//BEING BURIED UNDER A FEW THOUSAND TONNES OF ROCK AND SAND IS PRETTY CLOSED. THE SAMPLE IS TAKEN FROM WITHIN A ROCK.......AGAIN HOW EXACTLY WILL IT BECOME CONTAMINATED?

It is impossible to know what had initially been in a given piece of radioactive mineral.
The decay rate is not constant. Many environmental factors, such as pressure, changes in cosmic radiation level, nearby radioactive materials, high temperatures influence it [3]. In one of their studies, Westinghouse Laboratories have been able to change the decay rates simply by placing inactive iron next to radioactive lead.

//SHOW ME THE REFERENCE PLEASE. I AM INTERESTED IN HOW MUCH THE DECAY RATE REALLY ALTERED.

Part of the radioactive substances could have been leached out. Experiments show that even distilled water and weak acids can do this.[4]

//THIS MIGHT BE A GENUINE PROBLEM IF ISOLATED SAMPLES WERE TAKEN. NO SELF RESPECTING SCIENTIST WOULD USE ONE SAMPLE!!

Rocks could have been altered by sediment displacements.[5]

//SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE!!! HOW DOES THIS ALTER THE CONTENT OF PARTICULAR RADIOACTIVE MATERIALS THAT ARE FOUND WITHIN A FOSSIL?

A few examples of the accuracy of this method:
Hawaiian lava flows known to be less than two centuries old have been dated at up to 3 BILLION years old!
Laboratories that "date" rocks insist on knowing in advance the "evolutionary age" of the strata from which the samples were taken—this way, they know which dates to accept as "reasonable" and which to ignore.

//THIS IS SO THAT THEY LOOK AT THE APPROPRIATE RADIOACTIVE MATERIAL. THIS IS NOT ESSENTIAL.

2. Radiocarbon Dating

Wollard F. Libby discovered the carbon 14 method in 1946, while working at the University of Chicago. This was considered to be a great breakthrough in the dating of plant and animal remains of earlier times. It is the special method used by scientists to date organic materials not older than a few thousand years.

The radioactive carbon isotope (C-14) called radiocarbon is generated in the upper atmosphere by cosmic rays. Living organisms accumulate radioactive carbon from the atmosphere via carbon dioxide (CO2) during their lifetime. This accumulation ceases at the death of the organism and the radiocarbon starts decaying into inert carbon. By measuring the ratio of radioactive and stable carbon in an organic material, and ASSUMING what the original ratio was, one can calculate the time of death of that organism.

Let's hear from those people, who actually use this method, how its results are interpreted:

Pensee, 3 (Spring), p.44.:

//WOW A WORLD REKNOWNED USER OF THIS METHOD.......

If a C-14 date supports our theories, we put it in the main text. If it does not entirely contradict them, we put it in a footnote. And if it is completely 'out of date,' we just drop it.
The accuracy of this method is just catastrophic [6]. Just consider the following ridiculous findings[7]:
mortar from the 785 year old Oxford Castle in England was dated at 7,370 years old
freshly killed seals were dated at 1,300 years and seals dead for 30 years at 4,600 years
living snails being dated at 2,300 years old
new wood cut from growing trees after few days was dated at 10,000 years
muscle tissue from beneath the scalp of a mummified musk was dated to 24,000 years, while the the radiocarbon age of hair from a hind limb was established to be 17,200 years—a rather long living animal as it appears!
We cannot just assume that the C-14 concentration in the carbon dioxide cycle has always been constant, that the cosmic ray flux has always been the same [8] and that no contamination of the sample occurred. These assumptions are obviously erroneous, otherwise how can one explain that hair from a mammoth has been dated at 26,000 years while the peat right above the carcass at only 5,610 years?
Because of the short half-life of C-14, this method is only suitable for dating relatively young samples. Practically, any organic material would be left with an undetectable amount of radioactive carbon after 10 half-lives of C-14. This means that most of the fossils claimed to be millions of years old, would have to show an "infinite" age. It is not so. Radiocarbon dating of coal deposits gave ages less than 50,000 years, when the evolutionary theory claimed them to be millions of years old.

//THIS IS PRECISELY WHY YOU DO NOT USE CARBON DATING WITH FOSSILS. THE COAL DATING IS A JOKE......IT WOULD BE STUPIDLY INACCURATE DUE TO ITS AGE. A BETTER METHOD IS POTASSIUM-ARGON DATING.

Conclusion

After the discovery of the radiocarbon dating method, scientists tried to correlate their results with the dates "established" a century before. But they have not been able to do so. Of thousands of measurements, they have been able to correlate only three. These three successes were enough to make the original century old fossil/strata dating "scientific". It is on this basis that evolutionists claim that the fossiliferous strata have been dated by radioactive minerals! "

//IF THEY USED CARBON DATING I AM NOT SUPRISED. I JUST EXPLAINED THAT ONE.


does that give you a better idea i pulled that from a website which has references i can post if you like. i dont know about how we could count the stars...nor do i believe we can even estimate. All you can say for sure is that there are alot of them

//NOT REALLY........THIS IS A SEMI-CONVINCING ARTICLE TO THOSE THAT NO LITTLE ABOUT THE TECHNIQUE. HOWEVER, THE AUTHOR IS PLAYING ON MOST READERS IGNORANCE AND SO PUTTING FORWARD WHAT LOOKS LIKE A CREDIBLE ARGUMENT EVEN THOUGH IT IS WRONG. UNFORTUNATELY, THIS IS TYPICAL EXAMPLE OF 'SCIENTIFIC' EVIDENCE PUT FORWARD BY THOSE THAT TRY TO OPPOSE WHAT SCIENCE TELLS US.
 
Mattavelli said:
As humans have seen, occurrences with minute probabilities eventually occur over a infinite amount of time.

if this is true is still would not explain where the first atom of matter came from. If nothing is there to begin time certainly is not going to make matter appear from no where.

There are some things that science cannot answer........where the first atom came from is one such question. Why we are here is another.

Similarly there are things that science is better equipped to answer than religion. The origins of man is one such area.

The problem comes when people refuse to accept the boundaries of each areas usefulness.
 
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