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So, I got my testorone level test results back... and it is LOW!
- Thread starter djsf
- Start date
djsf
New member
Thanks guys. 
Modelling the cycle in order to determine when to begin PCT is the most important thing I have learned recently. This concept is not well-explained really anywhere in PCT instructions I have seen (I have read many) and the timing is usually left ambiguous and ill-defined. They usually say something like "wait a week or two or 10 days after your last shot". From my research, this often needs to be more like 3-5 weeks, especially with mega-doses! That is never really said anywhere.
I believe wrong PCT timing, usually too EARLY rather than too late, is the cause of many a bro's AAS woes. Hopefull this thinking will help others.
Modelling the cycle in order to determine when to begin PCT is the most important thing I have learned recently. This concept is not well-explained really anywhere in PCT instructions I have seen (I have read many) and the timing is usually left ambiguous and ill-defined. They usually say something like "wait a week or two or 10 days after your last shot". From my research, this often needs to be more like 3-5 weeks, especially with mega-doses! That is never really said anywhere.
I believe wrong PCT timing, usually too EARLY rather than too late, is the cause of many a bro's AAS woes. Hopefull this thinking will help others.
njmuscleguy
New member
djsf - a million thanks to you (and some k too!) - I actually did that model last week but I wasn't sure how trust-worthy it was because of the same fact you stated... there are so many varrying opinions as to when to start and how much to do.... your reasoning makes sense though... it seems I started my PCT a week too early....
However, it contradicts what Anthony Roberts wrote in his PCT article:
"I feel that the second your cycle is over is when you should start this PCT (a week after your last shot, or the day after your last pill is fine). Remember, waiting for some of the extra androgens you’ve been taking to leave your body is nonsensical, as we want to start recovery as soon as possible to retain maximum gains. There is no evidence to suggest waiting any length of time after your cycle is over will increase PCT effectiveness…it simply prolongs the time you aren’t doing anything positive to regain your natural hormones. "
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Maybe Anthony can comment on this.
I guess the one question I have remaining is what's the apropriate dosages for HCG and Nolvadex.... is it 1500 iu HCG, 3 times a week? Is it 500 iu per day? Is it 500 iu every other day? And for Nolvadex, 20mg seems to be the magic number.... but there are those that recommend 40-60mg and then tapering down...and those that say anything more than 10-20mg is a waste!
Thanks again DJ!
However, it contradicts what Anthony Roberts wrote in his PCT article:
"I feel that the second your cycle is over is when you should start this PCT (a week after your last shot, or the day after your last pill is fine). Remember, waiting for some of the extra androgens you’ve been taking to leave your body is nonsensical, as we want to start recovery as soon as possible to retain maximum gains. There is no evidence to suggest waiting any length of time after your cycle is over will increase PCT effectiveness…it simply prolongs the time you aren’t doing anything positive to regain your natural hormones. "
----------------
Maybe Anthony can comment on this.
I guess the one question I have remaining is what's the apropriate dosages for HCG and Nolvadex.... is it 1500 iu HCG, 3 times a week? Is it 500 iu per day? Is it 500 iu every other day? And for Nolvadex, 20mg seems to be the magic number.... but there are those that recommend 40-60mg and then tapering down...and those that say anything more than 10-20mg is a waste!
Thanks again DJ!
djsf
New member
>>recovery is not possible while exogenous hormones are still suppressing your system
I agree with that, and I think anthony roberts does too. Consider this. In this cycle, blood engrogen levels got to roughly 8x normal testosterone levels. One week after the last shot of test, they are still 3x. Two weeks after they are nearly 2x. Clearly one shouldn't wait TOO long, one needs to start PCT so most of it is overlapping the crash zone.
However, and this is the important part, some cycles can leave androgen levels elevated for 4-6 weeks after the last shot, and one might start AND FINISH their PCT before androgen levels get down to baseline, resulting in continued suppression after PCT has been completed! Clearly that is counterproductive. That happened to me, and I needed a second PCT. In my case, waiting clearly would have helped.
I suggest being especially cautious about this with high dose deca cycles (> 400mg/week). They are suppressive for a very long time after the last shot.
I agree with that, and I think anthony roberts does too. Consider this. In this cycle, blood engrogen levels got to roughly 8x normal testosterone levels. One week after the last shot of test, they are still 3x. Two weeks after they are nearly 2x. Clearly one shouldn't wait TOO long, one needs to start PCT so most of it is overlapping the crash zone.
However, and this is the important part, some cycles can leave androgen levels elevated for 4-6 weeks after the last shot, and one might start AND FINISH their PCT before androgen levels get down to baseline, resulting in continued suppression after PCT has been completed! Clearly that is counterproductive. That happened to me, and I needed a second PCT. In my case, waiting clearly would have helped.
I suggest being especially cautious about this with high dose deca cycles (> 400mg/week). They are suppressive for a very long time after the last shot.
njmuscleguy
New member
Hey djsf... I was just wondering where you're at with your second PCT... are you finished with it? Can you remind me again what it consisted of? How did you make out with it?
Thanks!
Thanks!
My unique problem is that I did 2 cycles of Deca and was told that HCG was the same as Clomid....as you can guess I was shut down VERY hard. Very low test level, as well as LH, and FSH.......
Been nearly 3 months since my last HCG shot....Started Tomaxophine Citrate over a month later (too late ?) and have been on it for about 7 weeks. Erections have gotten a little better, but NO SEX DRIVE and feel lethargic and moody.....Will my test return back to normal or does doing HCG w/ no Clomid or Nolva immedietly afterwards permanently shut you down ??
how long should I wait and does Nolvadex (Tomaxo ) further supress libido ?? Should I possibly run HCG or possibly even Test again ? Need advice since I have an endo appt. in a month and do NOT want to go on TRT or HRT. I'm 31 BTW.
Been nearly 3 months since my last HCG shot....Started Tomaxophine Citrate over a month later (too late ?) and have been on it for about 7 weeks. Erections have gotten a little better, but NO SEX DRIVE and feel lethargic and moody.....Will my test return back to normal or does doing HCG w/ no Clomid or Nolva immedietly afterwards permanently shut you down ??
how long should I wait and does Nolvadex (Tomaxo ) further supress libido ?? Should I possibly run HCG or possibly even Test again ? Need advice since I have an endo appt. in a month and do NOT want to go on TRT or HRT. I'm 31 BTW.
nuthnbutfords
New member
djsf said:
Does EQ act as Deca in being it is suppressive for a long time?
djsf
New member
EQ is a very long acting ester, slightly longer than Deca, so yes, it should have a long suppressive delay. Play with this Web site and you can see how long you need to wait before suppression ends and PCT can start. http://bulkmuscle.com/pct/index.php
