Size, Strength, Power - Any preferred/proper order?

[Tom Treutlein]

Assuming HST is optimal for size, Westside for strength, what would be the best way to go about training for power? You know, the whole force x acceleration thing to develop optimal striking ability?

And then, what would be the best way to go about developing those abilities? I would think it would be size, followed by strength, and finally closing it all up with a power cycle.

Input?

 

[KOArtist]

upper body plyos (clapping pushups, med ball throws, heavy bag pushes, etc.) ,OLY lifts (cleans, clean and push press, etc.) , and core training (any ab/lower back work, tornado ball work, twisting med ball work, etc.) will all help u strike w/ more power.

 

[KOArtist]

I box, and I lift 3x a week. 2 days are WSB style, and the other is devoted to Olympic lifts and plyos. I do max bench/dynamic squat one day, then vice versa the other day, then OLY/plyos the 3rd day. Working pretty good for me, try that maybe. Do u have a weight class to stay in?? I'm a heavyweight, so no worries about weight gain from the WSB stuff. Even though it's not aimed at "mass", lifting all that heavy weight is bound to pack on some beef though so beware if you have a weight to make. peace

 

[wnt2bBeast]

you guys think too much just lift lol

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Thinking leads to greater things, and there are better ways to go about it than 'just lifting'. Besides, if I just lifted, I'd never have come about the ideas of training the CNS for speed with low weights.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Thinking leads to greater things, and there are better ways to go about it than 'just lifting'. Besides, if I just lifted, I'd never have come about the ideas of training the CNS for speed with low weights.

this isnt rocket science bro im glad you have all this training knowledge..and i dont mean to put you down..but you want to grow? just lift i dont know what your numbers are like but if you can squat 400 plus for good reps your legs will grow..how much you pull, bench etc..add weight ot those lifts and trust me you will grow

 

[Illuminati]

you guys think too much just lift lol

STRENGTH. you dont necessarily need size to develop power. you more or less have to be able to train the body to put out maximal force. best bet would be WSB. get yourself some bands (provided you have a good base) and have at it.

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to wnt2bBeast again.

 

[AEKDB]

Here: http://www.sportsci.org/news/news9709/hatfield.html

 

[Illuminati]

try these articles:

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/strength_and_no_holds_barred_fighting.htm

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/devspecstrength.htm

http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/ls28.htm



you might notice a reoccuring number...50-60%. i cant find the exact article, but it has been stated that maximal foce is obtained at 60% of ones max. (i.e. some one who can bench press 300lbs, they could exert maximal force on a bar that has 180lbs of weight.) this is the reason why WSB uses 50-60% of the ME lift of their DE days.
the answer to your question, should be obvious. "the best way to go about training for power" would be the use of a PL style of lifting, i.e. WSB. to develop maximal force and acceleration, you want to increase you maximal strength, thus making 60% higher, increasing your striking ability.

 

[psilo]

this isnt rocket science bro im glad you have all this training knowledge..and i dont mean to put you down..but you want to grow? just lift i dont know what your numbers are like but if you can squat 400 plus for good reps your legs will grow..how much you pull, bench etc..add weight ot those lifts and trust me you will grow

This thread is very interesting so why don't you just shut the fuck up and go back to the hole you came from. If you don't want to participate that's fine, but being big doesn't give you the right to come into every other thread and bash the topic at hand.

Tom - I've actually been thinking alot about what you've said. My main curiousity is whether the size gain from HST would potentiate the effects of a west-side cycle. i.e. size gains from HST would allow one to gain more strength.

 

[casualbb]

Tom - I've actually been thinking alot about what you've said. My main curiousity is whether the size gain from HST would potentiate the effects of a west-side cycle. i.e. size gains from HST would allow one to gain more strength.

I think it would. Strength is largely an element of how many muscle fibers you can activate at once. Strength training will make your nerves better at coordinating muscle contractions. But obviously having more fibers to work with can't hurt.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

This thread is very interesting so why don't you just shut the fuck up and go back to the hole you came from. If you don't want to participate that's fine, but being big doesn't give you the right to come into every other thread and bash the topic at hand.

Tom - I've actually been thinking alot about what you've said. My main curiousity is whether the size gain from HST would potentiate the effects of a west-side cycle. i.e. size gains from HST would allow one to gain more strength.

not bashing bro..i just dont understand all this intellectual talk when you just need to get under heavy iron..discuss go ahead..use whatever method you want HSt high volume go ahead but the fact remains if you aint adding weight to your lifts you aint adding size or power..

And by the way that language is uncalled for if i read my first post i said i meant no disrepect to TT

 

[crew9]

not bashing bro..i just dont understand all this intellectual talk when you just need to get under heavy iron..discuss go ahead..use whatever method you want HSt high volume go ahead but the fact remains if you aint adding weight to your lifts you aint adding size or power..

And by the way that language is uncalled for if i read my first post i said i meant no disrepect to TT

I understand what you are saying and agree for the most part but certain people have certain goals. It is foolish to think that "just lift weights" will help develop certain things properly. If you want to be powerful you have to train for power. The problem is most people don't understand the difference between power and strength.

 

[cwick0]

lol. Like wnt2bst said, JUST LIFT!

 

[wnt2bBeast]

lol. Like wnt2bst said, JUST LIFT!

there gonna flame ya bro lol

 

[cwick0]

lol again.

They may have abs, but i have the power, strength and numbers.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

i got abs somewhere lol,,lets face it anyone can get cut to shreds in 5 months with dedication and such however you cant build huge number or become a monster in 5 months..id rather build then carve

 

[cwick0]

IM NEVER GONNA SEE MY ABS, i love food too much and HATE cardio. However, the guys who do put forth the dedication to cardio and abs i commend them.

Its taken me almost 10 years to get to the point im at now and im bigger and stronger than ever. Now all i do is keep trying to perfect my workouts and get the most out of each one of them.

 

[casualbb]

If a dude asks a complicated lifting question and your answer is that lifting should not be complicated...

then you really didn't answer the question. Let's stay on topic.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

It's not about being huge for me. So, you put up big numbers and have mass, that's cool cwick. I respect that if that's your thing. Same for wnt2b. My goals are shifted towards size just because I want to be rid of my vain nature when it comes to lifting, and then focus on a strength base, and finally, power. I want to fight. That's my goal. Even if it's just friendly sparring, I love to throw strikes, and receive them. I feel like a man. Maybe it's an inferiority complex and I have to cover it up with physical confrontation, but whatever the case, my blood boils whenever I fight. I guess that's just the adrenaline, but still...

Wnt2b, you're right about needing to add weight to the bar, but you don't need to 'just lift'. You don't need to increase your maximum poundages. Remember, submaximal weights with frequent, progressive loading leads to hypertrophy.

 

[cwick0]

Common Tom,
Youve been around elite long enough to know what you are doing at this point. If seen you offer (and receive) and you arent exactly clueless. You have made good points in the past. All we are saying is that you are thinking too much instead of just seeing what your body responds too. Im more than positive since you joined in November that you have gained an awful lot of strength, size/mass, and probably some power too. I dont think it is necessary to follow one program in detail. I suspect in your case it might be in your best interest to incorporate different aspects of each training program. I would love to help further, but i do my own thing and have never followed one particular program. Ive learned the ropes from all kinds of guys in the gym over the past 10 years and am doing my best ever.
wick

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Why do you say you're doing your best ever?

 

[cwick0]

Because im bigger/stronger/leaner than ever before and i never used anyone else's programs, all trial and error.

 

[Illuminati]

Because im bigger/stronger/leaner than ever before and i never used anyone else's programs, all trial and error.

it is all trial and error. that is why so many become discouraged with strength training. so many people dont have the patience to track 3 months (at a bare minimum) worth of training, and see how a certain style will work for them. then sit back and be able to say this worked for me, ill keep this. or that didn't work, so ill get rid of it. once you find something that really jams for certain body part, you ride it for a while, and figure out why it is working. maybe a certain rep/set scheme works for chest, but does it might not work for you legs. so you think back on your previous training, find what works best for you legs, combine that with what worked best for your chest, then run with that. and so on and so on, until you find what works best for you to attain the goals that you want to accomplish. it is all about trial and error, determination and committment.

 

[cwick0]

I couldnt agree more. It's always been my philosophy to learn from others at the gym i am training at. I have learn the most working out with and talking to gentleman who were bigger than me. If i ever see someone doing something that ive never tried, then by all means i will approach that person and inquire about the exercise and how they like it.

 

[Debaser]

lol. Like wnt2bst said, JUST LIFT!

Dude, it's not like I spend all my time discussing scientific principles, I'm still lifting weights 3-4 times a week. YOU CAN DO BOTH. I'm starting to really hate that saying, "just lift." Think about it, would you apply that to any other sports or hobbies?

-Would you try to "just modify" a car without knowing anything about the parts inside?

-Would you "just run" if you wanted to be an olympic level sprinter?

-Would you "just punch" if you wanted to be a boxing heavyweight champion?

Fuck no times 3.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

TT look my point was i know you are young but having been here and read your post your knowledge of training principles is more than likely far beyond what your average gym rat has including me..it just seems every so often your on a different tangent.. i undestand our goals are not the same..my original post was simplistic because no matter wat your goal it is not rocket science especailly given the fact that your smarter than most about training..i didnt want to see you get bogged down trying to pinpoint the "perfect" routine for your goal..my philosophy is KISS (keep it simple stupid) there is such a thing as "paralysis by analysis" its an old wall street saying..good luck in achieving your goals

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I understand entirely, wnt2b, and I appreciate the input. I agree with the whole K.I.S.S. concept at times, but there are also times where I just feel questions should be asked. I guess when I'm taking time off in the gym I get very sketchy about things and start to desire more knowledge. Stress with relationships and school, plus being sick just made my training and diet fall apart this past week.

I appreciate the compliment. Feels good to know that other people think I have a good deal of knowledge. The scary part is, there's still so much more I can learn, and that will only cease when I'm dead. Maybe.

 

[cwick0]

Dude, it's not like I spend all my time discussing scientific principles, I'm still lifting weights 3-4 times a week. YOU CAN DO BOTH. I'm starting to really hate that saying, "just lift." Think about it, would you apply that to any other sports or hobbies?

-Would you try to "just modify" a car without knowing anything about the parts inside?

-Would you "just run" if you wanted to be an olympic level sprinter?

-Would you "just punch" if you wanted to be a boxing heavyweight champion?

Fuck no times 3.

yeah yeah yeah,
YOU CAN DO BOTH. However, when some people start thinking to much, they forget what they already know. I wouldnt have said it if TOM didnt already have a good idea of what he was doing.

 

[AEKDB]

First, the work profile of boxing is repeated 3-minute rounds of activity, often with very high intensity bursts within a round. The rounds are separated by one minute rest intervals. Thus, the relative contribution of anaerobic energy release pathways is considered extremely important, with aerobic capacity playing an important role in terms of facilitating rapid recovery. Extreme conditioning is required to fight effectively for ten intense, 3-minute rounds and anaerobic endurance is a key aspect that cannot be overlooked. Short of an early round knockout, boxers cannot afford to win only the early rounds of a fight. They must maintain an intense, but measured pace throughout a long and competitive bout. So conditioning counts almost as much as skill for boxing success. Optimal physical conditioning provides the platform from which the skills can be used. The best way to simulate the demands of boxing is to use conditioning methods which mimic the work/rest ratio and integrated bursts of power that typify boxing.

That was from my link above. Translating this into weightlifting only:

Compete as fast as possible:
Explosive bench for 10 reps
Jump squat for 10 reps
clean and press for 10 reps
1 arm snatch for 10 reps
rest for 1 minute and repeat.