Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below As of right now I bench RAW. Its not that I don't like the bench shirts but I have just never been exposed to them. I hate to jump into them and have problems. I'm new to powerlifting and I feel like I'm doing fairly good without it. My question is I have been training mainly flat bench ME and Speed. Very little speed work though. Should I be training differently since I'm not using a shirt or is flat bench the way to go?
Should training for RAW be different than training for a shirt?
- Thread starter Grantsdu
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brianmincher
New member
Except for Jay, and maybe a couple others on here, very few focus a great deal on flat bench whether shirted or raw. Make sure you are changing up your max effort movement every week or two. Try floor press for two weeks, 3 board press for 2 weeks, declines for two weeks, 2 board press, reverse band press, heavy dumbells for a rep max, raw flat bench to a max, then back to floor presses. Max out every week, changing exercises at least every couple of weeks, and your bench will go up. Your shirt press will not go up, in general unless your raw bench goes up, and your raw bench will not go up, generally unless your shirt bench goes up. Either shirt or raw, to get more weight off your chest, you have to get stronger.
B.
B.
All that I have been doing is 5 setsof flat bench.
set 1 12 reps
set 2 8
set 3 5
set 4 3
set 5 3 I generally work up to my pause max or right at it.
I guess I will have to try to talk the guys I workout with to try floor presses and board presses. If they won't I will just have to get them to spot me. I can see I still have a hell of alot to learn about this sport if I want to be good.
set 1 12 reps
set 2 8
set 3 5
set 4 3
set 5 3 I generally work up to my pause max or right at it.
I guess I will have to try to talk the guys I workout with to try floor presses and board presses. If they won't I will just have to get them to spot me. I can see I still have a hell of alot to learn about this sport if I want to be good.
brianmincher
New member
Just realize that you can't build a big bench press by just going in and benching every week, gradually adding on weight in the hopes that you will someday put up monster numbers. Not likely to happen. Now I am not saying that you will never bench 300 by doing what you are doing, but honestly a lot of guys on this board warm up with 300+ and some 400+ and even close to 500 before they even bother putting on a bench shirt for competition.
To bench, or squat or deadlift the most you can possibly do, IMHO, look at what other people have done to get the most possible out of their potential. Not everyone has the raw materials to bench 700 or squat 1,000. But I will guarantee you that everyone who is reading this has the raw materials necessary to bench more than what they currently bench, and squat more than what they currently squat.
B.
To bench, or squat or deadlift the most you can possibly do, IMHO, look at what other people have done to get the most possible out of their potential. Not everyone has the raw materials to bench 700 or squat 1,000. But I will guarantee you that everyone who is reading this has the raw materials necessary to bench more than what they currently bench, and squat more than what they currently squat.
B.
the training is the same regardless of shirted or raw.i would make sure to use exercises like d/b presses,wide grip benches, to your program as a regular part........you will still have benefit of the tri work,etc,.......i would also do the speed work.it will help bigtime!and i agree with brianmincher 100% with the fact that benching alone will not do the trick.work the muscles that make a big bench and it will go up........hope that helps alittle
as for the speed work..wav the bands 4 weeks then go chains if you have em',if not go straight weight.then go for 4 weeks also.powerlifterjay
New member
I raw bench and love it. I do my raw flat benching on mondays then move to tris's, usually a Jm press, or elbow outs kinda of movement. Then on thurs i hit boards. And another tri movement. If you do speed thurs is wheni would speed bench. But i feel if you raw bench you do not need speed work. They do speed work cuase if all they did was floors and boards and jm imagine how weak they would be off the bottom. Both ways work 100% but yu can DO too much. Its better to do not enough.
As far as my workout being the same its is except i shave about 2 reps per set to warm up. then shirt. But i will hti 500 for a double before i ever even touch the shirt in the same workout. If i didnt shirt i woudl go for 4. See the difference?
Try one way for a few months then try the other for the same. Only your experience can speak for you. Not what everyones elses is.
I agree with brian everyone does not have the capabilities to bench 700lbs but everyone can get a hell of alot stronger then they are now.
As far as my workout being the same its is except i shave about 2 reps per set to warm up. then shirt. But i will hti 500 for a double before i ever even touch the shirt in the same workout. If i didnt shirt i woudl go for 4. See the difference?
Try one way for a few months then try the other for the same. Only your experience can speak for you. Not what everyones elses is.
I agree with brian everyone does not have the capabilities to bench 700lbs but everyone can get a hell of alot stronger then they are now.
Prometheus
New member
brianmincher said:
that's a great quote.
brianmincher
New member
Who is you buddy Cal, Josh Bryant? I have not heard of too many 22 year olds that are doing 500 for 5. Hell there aren't too many 32 year olds doing that for that matter. Kind of curious.
And regarding not being able to get strong benching raw every week. I will alter that to say, that I personally cannot get stronger by "exclusively" benching every week. Nor does anyone I know personally. Everyone I know who gets noticeably stronger, incorporates a great deal of accessory work into their training. I used to think I could get stronger by adding 5 lbs to my pyramid every week and just bench and go home. It did not work. Maybe I was a bit unclear in my earlier post.
Seriously, I would be very interested to know who your 22 year old buddy is.
B.
And regarding not being able to get strong benching raw every week. I will alter that to say, that I personally cannot get stronger by "exclusively" benching every week. Nor does anyone I know personally. Everyone I know who gets noticeably stronger, incorporates a great deal of accessory work into their training. I used to think I could get stronger by adding 5 lbs to my pyramid every week and just bench and go home. It did not work. Maybe I was a bit unclear in my earlier post.
Seriously, I would be very interested to know who your 22 year old buddy is.
B.
thank you brianmincher,you put it better than I did.what my point was is that when i only benched for years my bench was stuck,it's like when i waqs deadlifting everyweek i was not increasing like i did when i stopped doing deads and trained the muscles that help the deadlift.now mybe it won't work for everyone and i guess that would come down to how long you've been training and finding what works for each person,cause everyone will be differnt......some get strong as hell just benching period,but not me........
speedDemon
New member
benching raw would be the best way to go i would think.not a pro about shirts,but if you get as strong as you can without it tthen i think you would be stronger with it on.
hey Brian he isnt famous...
but if youd like to know his name you can pm me.
hes a good freind of mine...and yes ive seen him train, i occasionally lift with him...when i go back east to train.
funny how...some of you get indignant and defensive when someone lifts more ...and get all defensive...
there are plenty of guys out there are strong as hell but dont compete...david shaw a great old time powerlifter writes about something similiar in milo a while back...about a no name guy he once saw who would bench 600 raw, with no problem and did nothing but bench singles and some pushdowns...i hate to break it to folks there are sooooo many guys that trained incorrectly that "made" it...obv they had genetic ability...but...their desire and drive was an important factor...
it seems that many on this board...seem to dismiss anything that isnt Westside protocal out of hand as being not scientific...etc...
btw my buddy has always been pretty strong when before lifted...but...not what one would say was a freak. he did deadlift...600 at 200 ish at 16...after only a short period of time though...his...bench took a lot longer to develop.
im not flaming anyone here...just saying that there a ton of guys that do fine...without...using strict westside...
he also keeps his training very basic...and many on this forum would say he trains like a bber...
here is basically what he does...
monday: bp 2-3x1-5
db flat bench or incline press (up to 175 on dbs, and 405x2 on inclines
then some dips and db extensions...
tuesday: sq 2-3x6-8
l leg leg press
leg curls
thursday: shoulder presses
laterals
friday: dl or bb row
t bar row
pulldowns...
but if youd like to know his name you can pm me.
hes a good freind of mine...and yes ive seen him train, i occasionally lift with him...when i go back east to train.
funny how...some of you get indignant and defensive when someone lifts more ...and get all defensive...
there are plenty of guys out there are strong as hell but dont compete...david shaw a great old time powerlifter writes about something similiar in milo a while back...about a no name guy he once saw who would bench 600 raw, with no problem and did nothing but bench singles and some pushdowns...i hate to break it to folks there are sooooo many guys that trained incorrectly that "made" it...obv they had genetic ability...but...their desire and drive was an important factor...
it seems that many on this board...seem to dismiss anything that isnt Westside protocal out of hand as being not scientific...etc...
btw my buddy has always been pretty strong when before lifted...but...not what one would say was a freak. he did deadlift...600 at 200 ish at 16...after only a short period of time though...his...bench took a lot longer to develop.
im not flaming anyone here...just saying that there a ton of guys that do fine...without...using strict westside...
he also keeps his training very basic...and many on this forum would say he trains like a bber...
here is basically what he does...
monday: bp 2-3x1-5
db flat bench or incline press (up to 175 on dbs, and 405x2 on inclines
then some dips and db extensions...
tuesday: sq 2-3x6-8
l leg leg press
leg curls
thursday: shoulder presses
laterals
friday: dl or bb row
t bar row
pulldowns...
speedDemon
New member
i agree with that cal.i was more or less cursed when i didn't buy into the westside thing,but once the attitudes calm down they're cool.
powerlifterjay
New member
Hey guys i see your points , but i know the other side of things as well. It has taken me a couple years to have come as far as i have with westside training. Meaning i didnt buy into it at all. I adopted exercises and such, but that was it. I tried speed work , didnt like it. I hav etried box squats and loved it. And am now doing the no deadlifting to up my deadlift and i think its workin great.
Now keep in mind i take a lot of pride in my raw abilities. I can squat , bench, deadlift , raw and have a big total. So iam all for raw training. I will never compete raw, but heavy raw traiing is something that i agree has to be done. I put my gear on , and iam that much stronger. Like i have a meet coming June 2nd. I have box squatted since my last heavy squat session in January. All westsiders box up top the meet. I am currently free squatting as we speak. I will go 700 belt and wraps tonight. And 25 more next week. So as you see iam not 100% westside. Same with bench. I do no speed and both days are One moderate sometimes heavy, and the next always heavy. That said here is the flip side......
Westside trains weaknesses and imporves those areas. To say it doesnt work is ridiculas, there numbers speak for them selves. The concept behind westside is genious. And dont you think for a second they dont raw train. Buddy i have heard of big numbers flying around that gym raw. But alot of them dont liftthat way. I think the majoity of lifters around the country who train westside dont hit heavy raw shit either. But the meets allow equipment so if they can put on gear and use it to their benifit and lift way over their raw capabilities then they are mastering what there training for. Lifitng max weights under meet rules. Nothing wrong with it. Cause honestly unless you knwo the person you cant tell at a meet what they can lift raw.
And Cal the guy on the traiing forum your going to who advocates the 1 rep training is onto a good concept as well. I believe it would work to an extent as well. But if you seen he and i bickering a couple weeks ago he seen a pic of me and immediatly bashed me and said i could bench over 600 because i was all shirt. So just like westsiders call out people who bench raw and call them freaks, he assumed right away i was weak and all equipment. I can bench 545 raw. Theres people here who see it and knwo i am strong raw. So if i get 100plus from my shirt so what. If you cant lockout 650plus (like i can) my shirt will do nothing for you or anyone who puts one on thats eqaully as tight. I promise you that. Why is my lockout capabilities reaching freak status? Westside exercises. Boards and bands. On my second tri day. If it wasnt for there movements i wouldnt bench what i do. And yes i will bench flat and raw for life. Why? I love too. My training has to be fun. And raw benching to me is fun and it gauges and builds my strength. And i think you would be surprised how many people here are doing my routine. And if there not doing it they have stored somewhere.
So excuse the board memebers for there quick to attack non westsiders but theres no need to be equally as defensive. Because since iam in the middle, i see both points, and understand what both of ya'll , and the board means. So do what i did, and take what works from all aspects and get strong! Plain and simple try it if you dont like it take things out and add in your own stuff. Thats what i did. Works for me. Education will make you stronger. You MUST understand why you do certain things. You cant just do them and then say it doesnt work. Understand what its doing and if its not in yur cards drop it. Please westsiders no flames but i think speed benching is a waste of time. But if i did no flat benching at all you would have too. My partner Jimmie dean is 100% westside. So his speed stuff sometimes clashes with my way but we meet in the middle. Some days he does mine others i do his. Ying and Yang! Its all fun guys. The goal is get strong! Right?
Now keep in mind i take a lot of pride in my raw abilities. I can squat , bench, deadlift , raw and have a big total. So iam all for raw training. I will never compete raw, but heavy raw traiing is something that i agree has to be done. I put my gear on , and iam that much stronger. Like i have a meet coming June 2nd. I have box squatted since my last heavy squat session in January. All westsiders box up top the meet. I am currently free squatting as we speak. I will go 700 belt and wraps tonight. And 25 more next week. So as you see iam not 100% westside. Same with bench. I do no speed and both days are One moderate sometimes heavy, and the next always heavy. That said here is the flip side......
Westside trains weaknesses and imporves those areas. To say it doesnt work is ridiculas, there numbers speak for them selves. The concept behind westside is genious. And dont you think for a second they dont raw train. Buddy i have heard of big numbers flying around that gym raw. But alot of them dont liftthat way. I think the majoity of lifters around the country who train westside dont hit heavy raw shit either. But the meets allow equipment so if they can put on gear and use it to their benifit and lift way over their raw capabilities then they are mastering what there training for. Lifitng max weights under meet rules. Nothing wrong with it. Cause honestly unless you knwo the person you cant tell at a meet what they can lift raw.
And Cal the guy on the traiing forum your going to who advocates the 1 rep training is onto a good concept as well. I believe it would work to an extent as well. But if you seen he and i bickering a couple weeks ago he seen a pic of me and immediatly bashed me and said i could bench over 600 because i was all shirt. So just like westsiders call out people who bench raw and call them freaks, he assumed right away i was weak and all equipment. I can bench 545 raw. Theres people here who see it and knwo i am strong raw. So if i get 100plus from my shirt so what. If you cant lockout 650plus (like i can) my shirt will do nothing for you or anyone who puts one on thats eqaully as tight. I promise you that. Why is my lockout capabilities reaching freak status? Westside exercises. Boards and bands. On my second tri day. If it wasnt for there movements i wouldnt bench what i do. And yes i will bench flat and raw for life. Why? I love too. My training has to be fun. And raw benching to me is fun and it gauges and builds my strength. And i think you would be surprised how many people here are doing my routine. And if there not doing it they have stored somewhere.
So excuse the board memebers for there quick to attack non westsiders but theres no need to be equally as defensive. Because since iam in the middle, i see both points, and understand what both of ya'll , and the board means. So do what i did, and take what works from all aspects and get strong! Plain and simple try it if you dont like it take things out and add in your own stuff. Thats what i did. Works for me. Education will make you stronger. You MUST understand why you do certain things. You cant just do them and then say it doesnt work. Understand what its doing and if its not in yur cards drop it. Please westsiders no flames but i think speed benching is a waste of time. But if i did no flat benching at all you would have too. My partner Jimmie dean is 100% westside. So his speed stuff sometimes clashes with my way but we meet in the middle. Some days he does mine others i do his. Ying and Yang! Its all fun guys. The goal is get strong! Right?
brianmincher
New member
I have been thinking myself that speed bench may not be the best use of my training time. I have been 100 percent Westside for about 9 months or so now, and have made awesome gains during that time. I am going to drop speed bench, and do a mixture of what Jay does, what Screwball, does and what I have thought of. Screwball suggested just doing two max effort days per week instead of one max day and one speed day. Jay basically does a raw day and a max effort day (board day) I am going to start doing board presses wearing my shirt (because I have had such shirt problems recently) with a comp grip on Sunday's and do either raw bench, not to a max, or reverse band press, or heavy dumbells on Wednesdays. I am thinking I will go for PR's on sunday, and stop just short of failure on Wednesday's.
This does not mean I am no longer Westside, it just means that I am modifying the program to fit what is my current weak point. That IMHO is what Westside is all about. It is not about chains or bands, or a strict regimen of speed work one day and max effort work the other. I have recently slowed and where a shirted press is concerned, even regressed. I would be foolish, I think to continue on when progress is not imminent. As Louie Simmons says, "Everything works, but nothing works forever."
And incidentally, the reason I have been thinking that the speed work is not working for me, is that since lowering my speed working weight down to the working percentages currently suggested, I bombed out of a meet with a weight I had hit many many different times before, when I was training with 40 to 50 lbs more on speed day. Speed is king, but you also have to be strong.
B.
This does not mean I am no longer Westside, it just means that I am modifying the program to fit what is my current weak point. That IMHO is what Westside is all about. It is not about chains or bands, or a strict regimen of speed work one day and max effort work the other. I have recently slowed and where a shirted press is concerned, even regressed. I would be foolish, I think to continue on when progress is not imminent. As Louie Simmons says, "Everything works, but nothing works forever."
And incidentally, the reason I have been thinking that the speed work is not working for me, is that since lowering my speed working weight down to the working percentages currently suggested, I bombed out of a meet with a weight I had hit many many different times before, when I was training with 40 to 50 lbs more on speed day. Speed is king, but you also have to be strong.
B.
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Screwball
New member
I believe Louie and the rest of the Westside guys would be the first to agree that if something is not working: change it. They each attack their weaknesses in their own ways. The bottom line is that you do, what you have to do, to keep gaining strength & speed. Always striving to push your numbers up. If jumping jacks increased my squat & deadlift then that's what the hell I'm going to be doing. Hmmmm, just got an idea. Naaahhhhh!
hey powerlifterjay,
all i was saying is that ...some claim to be open minded about training but...think that ONLY westside works...
i never said that Westside doesnt work, just that ...just that some others find other methods to be more effective that is all...
btw i didnt know that ...mike ...was refering to you on goheavy...
all i was saying is that ...some claim to be open minded about training but...think that ONLY westside works...
i never said that Westside doesnt work, just that ...just that some others find other methods to be more effective that is all...
btw i didnt know that ...mike ...was refering to you on goheavy...
jay btw...
i never asked you ...but do you often leave one or two reps in you?
one of the things in powerlifting usa...that karwoski said was that ...the greatest advice he got was from ed coan....to always leave 1-3 reps in you...thus keeping yourself from getting stale...and keeping the bar moving "fast"
waterman says this as well... he said that he always selects wts in training that he is sure of making...and always trys to move the bar fast...just like...westside...but not to that extreme of 60 percent max...more like 90-95 percent of max...but ...not creaking slow...
ive been finding myself to lift much better that way as well...esp with singles...like 3-5 at 95 percent work much better for me
i never asked you ...but do you often leave one or two reps in you?
one of the things in powerlifting usa...that karwoski said was that ...the greatest advice he got was from ed coan....to always leave 1-3 reps in you...thus keeping yourself from getting stale...and keeping the bar moving "fast"
waterman says this as well... he said that he always selects wts in training that he is sure of making...and always trys to move the bar fast...just like...westside...but not to that extreme of 60 percent max...more like 90-95 percent of max...but ...not creaking slow...
ive been finding myself to lift much better that way as well...esp with singles...like 3-5 at 95 percent work much better for me
Hey fellas I was wondering about that board press workout that Jay does. Is there a thread about it? i cant seem to find it and I would be curious enough to try it and see how it works for me.
If there is someone who could cut+paste Jay's board routine and post it if thats ok with Jay, that would help. Thanks
If there is someone who could cut+paste Jay's board routine and post it if thats ok with Jay, that would help. Thanks
powerlifterjay
New member
Cal.. our posts were deleted except a few. It got pretty verbal. He questioned me and my lifts openly when i defended my partner Brian. He then posted facts abotu me and questioned my state record. I posted the site of that along with my ranking and over 600 contest pics. Everything he questioned i supported. So then he attacked me on my shaved legs. Go figure? Then i got rude back and i said things out of line and finally we appoligised and its cool now.
My only point was he seen a pic of me benching, he found my WPO results and basically said i was only benching what i did cause of my shirt. He said put a pic of me raw, i said if you want but will end then? I am strong raw. And liek i told him if all equipment was banned tommorow, i would still finish were i do . Its all fine now and we both really got out of line and apologised but everyone calls out everyone. Just make sure the guy you call out doesnt have pics and websites to back up everything he says! Like I do!
That guy is strong as hell though. You oughta try his program, just becareful of the CNS. That to me would be the only set back. I wouldnt do it year round. Do it till it stops workin.
And since are posts have been deleted i dont think he is refereing to me in his posts. Someone else. I proved my legitiamacy. And he accknowledged my lifts raw and assisted. Just as i did his.
My only point was he seen a pic of me benching, he found my WPO results and basically said i was only benching what i did cause of my shirt. He said put a pic of me raw, i said if you want but will end then? I am strong raw. And liek i told him if all equipment was banned tommorow, i would still finish were i do . Its all fine now and we both really got out of line and apologised but everyone calls out everyone. Just make sure the guy you call out doesnt have pics and websites to back up everything he says! Like I do!
That guy is strong as hell though. You oughta try his program, just becareful of the CNS. That to me would be the only set back. I wouldnt do it year round. Do it till it stops workin.
And since are posts have been deleted i dont think he is refereing to me in his posts. Someone else. I proved my legitiamacy. And he accknowledged my lifts raw and assisted. Just as i did his.
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powerlifterjay
New member
Sorry i put up the post above why you guys posted more.
Yes Cal ialways leave some in the bank! Not 3 maybe 1 or 2. Most of the time 1. But i push it sometimes were 1 more might not be possible. But if a max is going down that certain night as i go up to it many reps are left in the bank. I never fail. The only time i miss is on board presses. That is it. One thing you will never see is someone put there hands on my bar why i lift.
Cytomel do you want the whole deal or just board day? Email me.
Yes Cal ialways leave some in the bank! Not 3 maybe 1 or 2. Most of the time 1. But i push it sometimes were 1 more might not be possible. But if a max is going down that certain night as i go up to it many reps are left in the bank. I never fail. The only time i miss is on board presses. That is it. One thing you will never see is someone put there hands on my bar why i lift.
Cytomel do you want the whole deal or just board day? Email me.
IrishPower
New member
before you guys drop speed day, please consider the following.....
people do their speed weight too heavy... myself included.
i may be repeating myself but let me tell you something i remember seeing when i was younger,
jerry obradovic (600 bench as a junior), 700 bencher now was doing speed weight with 315 with like 30 secs rest in between. that shit was flying up....... when he finished his eight sets, he went up a did 450/5 close grip....... can you guys add 135 lbs to your speed weight and go up and do five reps with it with virtually no rest?
i know i coudnt with the weight i used to use. i benched 585 and i was trying to use 275 and 315.... its only after my pec tear that i have gone back and thought about what i was doing wrong. i have learned what speed really means by starting out with a broom stick, clawing my way back to 135, 185, and finally 225. keep in mind, i can do 225 like 30 - 40 times. i still will not go heavier than that with speed weight until i break 550 again.
you need to see speed weight to see what it is all about. reading about it is not good enough.
george is using 245 now. dave tate says all their 600 benchers are using 205 - 225 raw weight and BANDS.
so before you throw the training in the garbage, check your ego for eight, 10 weeks, drop below 50% of your 1RM (shirted) for all your speed and see where you are at. oh yeah... dont forget ME day.
/irish
people do their speed weight too heavy... myself included.
i may be repeating myself but let me tell you something i remember seeing when i was younger,
jerry obradovic (600 bench as a junior), 700 bencher now was doing speed weight with 315 with like 30 secs rest in between. that shit was flying up....... when he finished his eight sets, he went up a did 450/5 close grip....... can you guys add 135 lbs to your speed weight and go up and do five reps with it with virtually no rest?
i know i coudnt with the weight i used to use. i benched 585 and i was trying to use 275 and 315.... its only after my pec tear that i have gone back and thought about what i was doing wrong. i have learned what speed really means by starting out with a broom stick, clawing my way back to 135, 185, and finally 225. keep in mind, i can do 225 like 30 - 40 times. i still will not go heavier than that with speed weight until i break 550 again.
you need to see speed weight to see what it is all about. reading about it is not good enough.
george is using 245 now. dave tate says all their 600 benchers are using 205 - 225 raw weight and BANDS.
so before you throw the training in the garbage, check your ego for eight, 10 weeks, drop below 50% of your 1RM (shirted) for all your speed and see where you are at. oh yeah... dont forget ME day.
/irish
