SHould PREGNANT DRUG USERS be prosecuted?

[bigtasty25]

Should pregnant drug users be prosecuted? I need information on this for a debate im going to go on tuesday...im going to be doing the con side for wednesday aug 2nd...so if you can give me ideas about why you think they SHOULDNT be prosecuted..that would be helpful..although, if you feel they should be...go ahead and say why. Thanks!

 

[pin]

No way. If they're pregnant and a dope fiend then there life is fucked up enough they should be helped

 

[theprofessor]

No way. If they're pregnant and a dope fiend then there life is fucked up enough they should be helped

oh fuck no... they should be prosecuted for child endangerment at the VERY least...

 

[Cutiebaby]

Yes they should. Child endangerment, hell screw it How does attempted murder sound???
Yes I am fully aware that it is like a disease and they "can not" control there habit but hell if that is the way it is than maybe they should stop and think..
1) Not spread their fuckin legs
2)Use protection
3)get cleaned and stay fuckin clean
4)as much as I am dead set against this option but abortion!
They dont stop and think of what this infant will be put through after being born due to their selfish, sickening acts. This type of shit pisses me off extremely.
I cannot even begin to express the out right hatred that I have for pregnant users. If I could only make them suffer as much as that new born child is going to suffer and know that I am having what I believe is a good time doing it! It makes me sick to my stomach mostly when I think of it. This is a life, a chance to create a little human being. Some fuckin people try for years to have children and cannot. Then you have these crack heads that will sleep with any one for a fuckin fix and they end up pregnant. Playing roulette with a little childs life and not giving a fuck..Hell people that use while they are fuckin pregnant should be hung. I dont give a damn the excuse..I know drugs are addicting and it is hard to come off of them, but that is still not a damn excuse.There are many various forms of help for users in todays world!!

 

[needtogetaas]

any asshole that is not prolife comes in here and say she should be.needs to get there head checked.

 

[Smurfy]

Should pregnant drug users be prosecuted? I need information on this for a debate im going to go on tuesday...im going to be doing the con side for wednesday aug 2nd...so if you can give me ideas about why you think they SHOULDNT be prosecuted..that would be helpful..although, if you feel they should be...go ahead and say why. Thanks!

shit, mother's of drug-exposed or drug-addicted babies dont even get criminally prosecuted.

 

[needtogetaas]

shit, mother's of drug-exposed or drug-addicted babies dont even get criminally prosecuted.

well in mass if the baby comes out with drugs in its body.they take the child and the mother never ever sees the kid again.

 

[Smurfy]

well in mass if the baby comes out with drugs in its body.they take the child and the mother never ever sees the kid again.

well, first of all. that's not entirely true. but that's not the same as criminal prosecution. They may lose custody, but unless a parent's rights are terminated ina court of law or there is a no contact order entered by the court, a parent always retains residual rights one of which is reasonable visitation (typically supervised).

 

[Cutiebaby]

well, first of all. that's not entirely true. but that's not the same as criminal prosecution. They may lose custody, but unless a parent's rights are terminated ina court of law or there is a no contact order entered by the court, a parent always retains residual rights one of which is reasonable visitation (typically supervised).

Here in Mass they test the baby as soon as it is born, for narcotics.
Which I think is a great idea and should be done every where. Unfortunitaly it is too late by then for the poor infants!!

 

[Smurfy]

Here in Mass they test the baby as soon as it is born, for narcotics.
Which I think is a great idea and should be done every where. Unfortunitaly it is too late by then for the poor infants!!

they test every babby that is born? in the entire state?

 

[Cutiebaby]

they test every babby that is born? in the entire state?

yes! It is part of the blood work that they do when the baby is first born

 

[Smurfy]

yes! It is part of the blood work that they do when the baby is first born

that's great. how long have they been doing that>?

 

[Cutiebaby]

that's great. how long have they been doing that>?

For a while now. First time I heard of it was back in 03. I have no idea about back when I had my 1st born(98), but then again I never used so I wouldnt have failed it. But when I returned home from Italy a girl i knew was involved with the state because her baby was born with withdrawels. From then on I found out they test all babies born here.

 

[PICK3]

My mom used drugs when she was knocked up for me.

 

[Razorguns]

Should pregnant drug users be prosecuted? I need information on this for a debate im going to go on tuesday...im going to be doing the con side for wednesday aug 2nd...so if you can give me ideas about why you think they SHOULDNT be prosecuted..that would be helpful..although, if you feel they should be...go ahead and say why. Thanks!

yeah you want to take on NOW and feminist groups? puleeze.

justice is "supposed" to be sex neutral.

 

[Cutiebaby]

My mom used drugs when she was knocked up for me.

You got your moms pregnant....sicko

 

[HiDnGoD]

Have you ever seen a kid with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, or born addicted to coke?
Not just yes, but, hell yes.

That is all.

 

[Cutiebaby]

Have you ever seen a kid with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, or born addicted to coke?
Not just yes, but, hell yes.

That is all.

kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
very nice.thank you!

 

[PICK3]

You got your moms pregnant....sicko

nah ... when I tried to breast feed as an infant my mom told me she only liked me as a friend

 

[-SD-]

Since abortion is perfectly legal then we should not prosecute. It would contradict the "my body my choice" tenet of abortion, as well as the "its just a mass of tissue" argument. If we were to prosecute mothers for the damage they do to their fetuses then we have to all admit that abortion itself is wrong, because if damaging a fetus (that will presumably become a baby) is wrong, then certainly terminating a fetus (that would have presumably become a baby also) has to be wrong as well.

Kind of tricky shit isnt it?

 

[Cutiebaby]

Since abortion is perfectly legal then we should not prosecute. It would contradict the "my body my choice" tenet of abortion, as well as the "its just a mass of tissue" argument. If we were to prosecute mothers for the damage they do to their fetuses then we have to all admit that abortion itself is wrong, because if damaging a fetus (that will presumably become a baby) is wrong, then certainly terminating a fetus (that would have presumably become a baby also) has to be wrong as well.

Kind of tricky shit isnt it?

No see that is where you are a bit wrong.
When Aborting you are getting rid of the child. Killing it.Not making it suffer
When using drugs you are keeling that child so that it is born with withdrawel symptoms and long suffering. Like I said as much as I am against abortion I am not against it when it comes to the health of the child. A user is putting their child on the line, Might as well abort it. (get rid of, not make suffer)
Get it?

 

[theprofessor]

Since abortion is perfectly legal then we should not prosecute. It would contradict the "my body my choice" tenet of abortion, as well as the "its just a mass of tissue" argument. If we were to prosecute mothers for the damage they do to their fetuses then we have to all admit that abortion itself is wrong, because if damaging a fetus (that will presumably become a baby) is wrong, then certainly terminating a fetus (that would have presumably become a baby also) has to be wrong as well.

Kind of tricky shit isnt it?

ummm.... abortion is wrong...

 

[-SD-]

No see that is where you are a bit wrong.
When Aborting you are getting rid of the child. Killing it.Not making it suffer
When using drugs you are keeling that child so that it is born with withdrawel symptoms and long suffering. Like I said as much as I am against abortion I am not against it when it comes to the health of the child. A user is putting their child on the line, Might as well abort it. (get rid of, not make suffer)
Get it?

Not really. You cant extrapolate or predict the future health of a child to any relevant accuracy from the womb. Lets say the family is dirt poor and the child *might* suffer malnutrition. Or the mother is married to a convicted child molestor. Does that fall under the guidelines of the health of the child and therefore abortion os ok? Since you are against abortion than that shouldnt be a reason to allow it. The logic so far is this: If the mother decides to end a pregnancy then the fetus is not considered a human being, but if the mother decides to keep the baby it is considered a human being even if it hasnt been born yet (i.e. prosecuting for double murder when a mother and fetus are killed, prosecuting when the mother uses drugs while pregnant, etc). Since the basic argument is when is a fetus a human being, and therefore protected with rights, it doesnt make sense to allow each pregnant mother to determine when a fetus is a human being and when it is merely dispensable tissue.

 

[-SD-]

ummm.... abortion is wrong...

Im trying to make a play on logic here.

 

[pin]

Yes they should. Child endangerment, hell screw it How does attempted murder sound???
Yes I am fully aware that it is like a disease and they "can not" control there habit but hell if that is the way it is than maybe they should stop and think..
1) Not spread their fuckin legs
2)Use protection
3)get cleaned and stay fuckin clean
4)as much as I am dead set against this option but abortion!
They dont stop and think of what this infant will be put through after being born due to their selfish, sickening acts. This type of shit pisses me off extremely.
I cannot even begin to express the out right hatred that I have for pregnant users. If I could only make them suffer as much as that new born child is going to suffer and know that I am having what I believe is a good time doing it! It makes me sick to my stomach mostly when I think of it. This is a life, a chance to create a little human being. Some fuckin people try for years to have children and cannot. Then you have these crack heads that will sleep with any one for a fuckin fix and they end up pregnant. Playing roulette with a little childs life and not giving a fuck..Hell people that use while they are fuckin pregnant should be hung. I dont give a damn the excuse..I know drugs are addicting and it is hard to come off of them, but that is still not a damn excuse.There are many various forms of help for users in todays world!!

I've read some of your posts. You obviously have a heart for kids. Which is cool. But with all do respect. I used to be a junky. And its not all that simple. Quitting hard core dope is tough. If it were easy and anyone could do it there wouldn't be any junkies. I've known a couple of these women and they do "give a fuck" they're just trapped and wracked with guilt. Prosecuting them won't help them or deture them from using. What about the punk motherfucker who got her pregnant then split? His ass should be castrated sledge hammer!

 

[pin]

Since abortion is perfectly legal then we should not prosecute. It would contradict the "my body my choice" tenet of abortion, as well as the "its just a mass of tissue" argument. If we were to prosecute mothers for the damage they do to their fetuses then we have to all admit that abortion itself is wrong, because if damaging a fetus (that will presumably become a baby) is wrong, then certainly terminating a fetus (that would have presumably become a baby also) has to be wrong as well.

Kind of tricky shit isnt it?

Beautifully stated

 

[theprofessor]

Im trying to make a play on logic here.

understood from your first post... however... the title is should they be prosecuted...
just like abortion should be illegal... and punishable as well...

 

[Cutiebaby]

I've read some of your posts. You obviously have a heart for kids. Which is cool. But with all do respect. I used to be a junky. And its not all that simple. Quitting hard core dope is tough. If it were easy and anyone could do it there wouldn't be any junkies. I've known a couple of these women and they do "give a fuck" they're just trapped and wracked with guilt. Prosecuting them won't help them or deture them from using. What about the punk motherfucker who got her pregnant then split? His ass should be castrated sledge hammer!

I am not all to familiar with drugs. I smoked plenty of joints,bowls, and blunts in my day.Went as far as eating a few shrooms but nothing more...However I have seen my brother battle for about 11 years now so more than ever before. It used to be coke on an occasion, now it is worse and more for him.I fuckin hate every minute of it. One minute he is clean the next he has marks all over him. He claims relapse which yes I believe.I know from what I have seen and heard that getting clean is soooo fucking unbelievably hard to do. Yes the guy is to blame for knockin the gal up as well.I hear that, But the guy is not responsible as far as having life inside him.
My bro's ex had a kid.She was and probably still is little ms herion queen. Been to jail for it, been to rehab, and last time I knew was all strung out. However, I am bitching about the fact that there is help out there. People just dont give a fuck.
My fuckin parents ignore my brothers bullshit where as I am going out of my mind mentally and emotionally because of it.I see him (who is 5 years older than me and always sheltered me from "bad") and I can do nothing but worry and cry.Too many fuckin people become enablers to this shit. And look who gets hurt the most.Poor little babies who are born with the struggle to live.Who have to be weened off of the shit that the mother was on. It is the worst thing in the world to ever see. And it pisses me off to all extremes even talking about it. I promised myself when I had kids that I would never come to that.I would not allow myself to need or want it. I am blessed I never touched the shit before as it is harder getting pregnant and trying to clean up.BUT why try to sugar coat it?
We persecute people who drink and drive who end up seriously wounding or killing people. We take babies away and persecute mothers who cannot feed there babies or cannot keep them warm.BUT fuck why do we sit here and allow (no offense) these crack whores to do this shit????
And yes, sorry my heart belongs to all children. Especially those who dont have a choice in this damned world.

 

[-SD-]

understood from your first post... however... the title is should they be prosecuted...
just like abortion should be illegal... and punishable as well...

We cant logically punish women for the damage they do to their fetuses while simultaneously allowing them to terminate said fetuses. As it stands, abortion is legal, and prosecuting women who damage their yet to be born babies with substances is not prosecutable. My point is this is the paradox that happens when things like abortion are legal. What I dont understand is why a person can be criminally prosecuted for double homocide if he kills a pregnant woman. If its just an unviable mass of tissue or "part of her body" then their cant be two murders, only one. Unless we are now defininig fetuses as human beings (only human beings can be murdered), in which case we are back to square one as to why abortion is legal in the first place.

 

[pin]

I am not all to familiar with drugs. I smoked plenty of joints,bowls, and blunts in my day.Went as far as eating a few shrooms but nothing more...However I have seen my brother battle for about 11 years now so more than ever before. It used to be coke on an occasion, now it is worse and more for him.I fuckin hate every minute of it. One minute he is clean the next he has marks all over him. He claims relapse which yes I believe.I know from what I have seen and heard that getting clean is soooo fucking unbelievably hard to do. Yes the guy is to blame for knockin the gal up as well.I hear that, But the guy is not responsible as far as having life inside him.
My bro's ex had a kid.She was and probably still is little ms herion queen. Been to jail for it, been to rehab, and last time I knew was all strung out. However, I am bitching about the fact that there is help out there. People just dont give a fuck.
My fuckin parents ignore my brothers bullshit where as I am going out of my mind mentally and emotionally because of it.I see him (who is 5 years older than me and always sheltered me from "bad") and I can do nothing but worry and cry.Too many fuckin people become enablers to this shit. And look who gets hurt the most.Poor little babies who are born with the struggle to live.Who have to be weened off of the shit that the mother was on. It is the worst thing in the world to ever see. And it pisses me off to all extremes even talking about it. I promised myself when I had kids that I would never come to that.I would not allow myself to need or want it. I am blessed I never touched the shit before as it is harder getting pregnant and trying to clean up.BUT why try to sugar coat it?
We persecute people who drink and drive who end up seriously wounding or killing people. We take babies away and persecute mothers who cannot feed there babies or cannot keep them warm.BUT fuck why do we sit here and allow (no offense) these crack whores to do this shit????
And yes, sorry my heart belongs to all children. Especially those who dont have a choice in this damned world.

You have some very good points, and I see where you're coming from. I have a question. Do you think that prosecuting the women will help the babies, or be more of a deterant for these women to not use? I mean you can go to jail for using in and of its self. Maybe I'm reading you wrong but this seems to be more about revenge on the mother. Not trying to be a dick or anything.

 

[deco]

prosecuted

 

[theprofessor]

We cant logically punish women for the damage they do to their fetuses while simultaneously allowing them to terminate said fetuses. As it stands, abortion is legal, and prosecuting women who damage their yet to be born babies with substances is not prosecutable. My point is this is the paradox that happens when things like abortion are legal. What I dont understand is why a person can be criminally prosecuted for double homocide if he kills a pregnant woman. If its just an unviable mass of tissue or "part of her body" then their cant be two murders, only one. Unless we are now defininig fetuses as human beings (only human beings can be murdered), in which case we are back to square one as to why abortion is legal in the first place.

but its ok to pull the plug on someone in a terminal coma... but you cant just take them outside like old yeller and shoot them...
its due process bro...
...and yes im still at square one... how abortion is acceptable... i have no clue...

 

[Cutiebaby]

You have some very good points, and I see where you're coming from. I have a question. Do you think that prosecuting the women will help the babies, or be more of a deterant for these women to not use? I mean you can go to jail for using in and of its self. Maybe I'm reading you wrong but this seems to be more about revenge on the mother. Not trying to be a dick or anything.

I think it will benefit both. Personally I could care less what sally sue does with her time as long as shit dont come near my kids. But if sally sue were carrying a child and the reprocussions(sp) were greater maybe she would not use and the child would be not so much in harms way as if sally sue were feeling "allowed" to boot up.
You tell me Mr. Pin...If u were booting up and you knew that your max penelty would be a few months out on the bracelet or good time would you care?
Now what if you were booting up with a max penelty of child endangerment or attempted muder manslaughter etc
Which one would you fear most of?
Would you atleast attempt to get clean, maybe spend the 9 (really 10) months in a rehab then boot once your child is out and cared for by family or friends?

 

[pin]

I think it will benefit both. Personally I could care less what sally sue does with her time as long as shit dont come near my kids. But if sally sue were carrying a child and the reprocussions(sp) were greater maybe she would not use and the child would be not so much in harms way as if sally sue were feeling "allowed" to boot up.
You tell me Mr. Pin...If u were booting up and you knew that your max penelty would be a few months out on the bracelet or good time would you care?
Now what if you were booting up with a max penelty of child endangerment or attempted muder manslaughter etc
Which one would you fear most of?
Would you atleast attempt to get clean, maybe spend the 9 (really 10) months in a rehab then boot once your child is out and cared for by family or friends?

From what I've seen these women DO TRY to get clean when they find out that they are pregnant. Its tough though. I'm not defending them. It is wrong. But when you are jonezing so hard for a hit thinking strait just isn't an option. You literally DO NOT HAVE the ability to make normal everyday decisions due to the brutal physical effects of withdrawals. So they break down and use. Not to get high and feel good. But to just stop the withdrawle symptoms. Then they cry. Because they feel so guilty. I've seen it. Maybe if they could be committed to an institution by family or friends until the baby was born. Getting her clean and promoting the health of the kid. Killing 2 birds w/ 1 stone. But that would probably infringe on her rights or something stupid huh?

 

[Cutiebaby]

From what I've seen these women DO TRY to get clean when they find out that they are pregnant. Its tough though. I'm not defending them. It is wrong. But when you are jonezing so hard for a hit thinking strait just isn't an option. You literally DO NOT HAVE the ability to make normal everyday decisions due to the brutal physical effects of withdrawals. So they break down and use. Not to get high and feel good. But to just stop the withdrawle symptoms. Then they cry. Because they feel so guilty. I've seen it. Maybe is they could be committed to an institution by family or friends until the baby was born. Getting her clean and promoting the health of the kid. Killing 2 birds w/ 1 stone. But that would probably infringe on her rights or something stupid huh/

Yes the above 18 needing to admit yourself thing sucks.Because really either the poor gal is too strung out to think straight or too sick to think straight.IMO that should change to benefit the girl and child.
In a way I do feel bad for the user, dont get me wrong. However like I said simply.Maybe they would think better and use best judgement if they knew that the penelty was higher

 

[pin]

Yes the above 18 needing to admit yourself thing sucks.Because really either the poor gal is too strung out to think straight or too sick to think straight.IMO that should change to benefit the girl and child.
In a way I do feel bad for the user, dont get me wrong. However like I said simply.Maybe they would think better and use best judgement if they knew that the penelty was higher

I wish that was true. But when you are stung out you don't care about the penalties no matter how high they are. I just don't think it would help. I mean what about the penalty of having a sick baby? Is jail really worse than that in these womens minds. I don't think so. In fact I know so.

This is good conversation but I have a second job to go to. We'll pick it up later. Peace.

 

[Cutiebaby]

I wish that was true. But when you are stung out you don't care about the penalties no matter how high they are. I just don't think it would help. I mean what about the penalty of having a sick baby? Is jail really worse than that in these womens minds. I don't think so. In fact I know so.

This is good conversation but I have a second job to go to. We'll pick it up later. Peace.

Have a good night!

 

[-SD-]

but its ok to pull the plug on someone in a terminal coma... but you cant just take them outside like old yeller and shoot them...
its due process bro...
...and yes im still at square one... how abortion is acceptable... i have no clue...

My question is concerning when life begins, not what is acceptable afterwards. If life begins at birth, as the proabortion stance is, then anything we do to fetuses is fair game, including abortion. If life begins at some predetermined point during pregnancy, then abortion and drug abuse cant be acceptable during that time. America, and the world, needs a consistent and logical position concerning these matters.

 

[pin]

We cant logically punish women for the damage they do to their fetuses while simultaneously allowing them to terminate said fetuses. As it stands, abortion is legal, and prosecuting women who damage their yet to be born babies with substances is not prosecutable. My point is this is the paradox that happens when things like abortion are legal. What I dont understand is why a person can be criminally prosecuted for double homocide if he kills a pregnant woman. If its just an unviable mass of tissue or "part of her body" then their cant be two murders, only one. Unless we are now defininig fetuses as human beings (only human beings can be murdered), in which case we are back to square one as to why abortion is legal in the first place.

Your logic is flawless

 

[hardrock]

Hell yes! Even for smoking cigs.

 

[chewyxrage]

I get furious about shit like that. Especially cigs cuz that is the most common. The worst I've ever is someone drinking.

I believe they should be prosecuted for anything including cig smoking. Shit isn't right. If your preggo and can't/won't have an abortion, that life is yours to take care of.

 

[HiDnGoD]

My question is concerning when life begins, not what is acceptable afterwards. If life begins at birth, as the proabortion stance is, then anything we do to fetuses is fair game, including abortion. If life begins at some predetermined point during pregnancy, then abortion and drug abuse cant be acceptable during that time. America, and the world, needs a consistent and logical position concerning these matters.

Maybe the determination should simply be that the fetus is still alive. Since the fetus is alive, it has the potential to become a person, hence the criminal behaviour charges.

 

[-SD-]

Maybe the determination should simply be that the fetus is still alive. Since the fetus is alive, it has the potential to become a person, hence the criminal behaviour charges.

In that case it has the potential to become a person from the moment of conception and is alive. In this case abortion should be legal up to the day before birth. There has to be a hard fast point in the womb where the fetus is now a person and abortion is off the table.

 

[HiDnGoD]

In that case it has the potential to become a person from the moment of conception and is alive. In this case abortion should be legal up to the day before birth. There has to be a hard fast point in the womb where the fetus is now a person and abortion is off the table.

It would be nice if we could, but too many opinons on the matter.
Personally I would rather people not opt for abortions of their own free will. Just have adequate sex ed & birth control materials available to all, and easier adoption procedures, with more support for the birth mother.

 

[theprofessor]

ok... so the fetus is not alive until birth ...still... now...
it becomes born and is now a person...
this person now has health defects etc... BECAUSE OF THINGS THAT WERE DONE BY AN IRRESPONSIBLE PERSON...
prosecuted... end of story

 

[pin]

ok... so the fetus is not alive until birth ...still... now...
it becomes born and is now a person...
this person now has health defects etc... BECAUSE OF THINGS THAT WERE DONE BY AN IRRESPONSIBLE PERSON...
prosecuted... end of story

All I'm saying is that prosecution won't solve anything. It'll just cost more money to imprison the chicks.
What should it be a misdemeanor or a feloney? why/why not?

 

[theprofessor]

All I'm saying is that prosecution won't solve anything. It'll just cost more money to imprison the chicks.
What should it be a misdemeanor or a feloney? why/why not?

i dont know... if i drugged a minor without their concent what would that be? misdemeanor or felony? without looking it up... id say felony...
its the same damn thing as giving a 5 year old drugs... just they are born with drugs in their system right off the bat...

 

[Gymgurl]

The realy issue is why can't the goverment tie their tubes. I have a sister in law who has adpoted 7 kids from the same mother who is a drug addict. She is court ordered not to have contact with the father and not to get pregnant...Well my SIL is getting her 8th baby in December. Herion addicts that are using need to be on methadone or herion the whole time of pregnancy so that the baby does not detox in the womb and die. They should be put in jail the entire time so that they are monitored, kept of drugs and the baby can be safely detoxed after delivery.

 

[Smurfy]

The realy issue is why can't the goverment tie their tubes. I have a sister in law who has adpoted 7 kids from the same mother who is a drug addict. She is court ordered not to have contact with the father and not to get pregnant...Well my SIL is getting her 8th baby in December. Herion addicts that are using need to be on methadone or herion the whole time of pregnancy so that the baby does not detox in the womb and die. They should be put in jail the entire time so that they are monitored, kept of drugs and the baby can be safely detoxed after delivery.

Human rights activists would never allow that. Unfortunately. I have stood in courtrooms and heard Judges tell mothers how they wish they could lawfully court order them to have a hysterectomy.

 

[Gymgurl]

I know that is the pasrt that just pisses me off....makes a great debate however..lol...When I worked with the court/prison system this was a huge problem and it just makes me think that the second time your kids get taken away your done..no more giving birth and no more kids period....

 

[Delinquent]

i dont know... if i drugged a minor without their concent what would that be? misdemeanor or felony? without looking it up... id say felony...
its the same damn thing as giving a 5 year old drugs... just they are born with drugs in their system right off the bat...

You might as well stop arguing because all you're doing is throwing subjective statements into an argument you are ever so obviously losing.

 

[wootoom]

this shouldnt even be a fuckin question of course they should

 

[theprofessor]

You might as well stop arguing because all you're doing is throwing subjective statements into an argument you are ever so obviously losing.

 

[Cutiebaby]

this shouldnt even be a fuckin question of course they should

I agree

 

[dutchman063]

All I'm saying is that prosecution won't solve anything.

sure it would it would help in detering any future pregnant females from doin the same

 

[Cutiebaby]

thats what i was saying

 

[pin]

sure it would it would help in detering any future pregnant females from doin the same

How do you figure? My original argument ealier in this thread is that jail is not a deterant for anything in the mind of a junky. We have to keep perpective here. The idea is to solve or at least lessen the problem. Just punishing these women isn't in any way going to help them or the babies. Its just not. Plus with how fucked up and spread thin out legal and prison systems are already they would most likely be out in less than a year anyway. Not enough time to kick dope. The question is a matter of human rights. I think that out of the box legislative thinking is in order here. Throwing the chick in jail after she has givin birth to a sick child has accomplished nothing, has it? She will just get out and most likely do it again. So, the question is. At what point should the government step in? Before or after the kid is borne. As Angel and I had discussed earlier. Someone has to be 18 and self admit themselves to a rehab facility. Maybe if it were a law and you or I could HAVE someone administersd before its to late. But then we are also giving the government more juisdiction in the area of deciding what is best for us in general. And we all know how when we give them an inch they take a mile, especially in the area of Child Protective Services. Which is an incompitent organization. My cousin's kids just got taken away. They gave them to his mom. WHO IS AS BIG OF A CRACKHEAD ALCOHOLC AS HE IS!!!. What the fuck do they know. Plus a pregnant Chick that is detoxing is very likely to miscarry anyway. This is not just a simple issue of prosecute and be done with it.

 

[theprofessor]

How do you figure? My original argument ealier in this thread is that jail is not a deterant for anything in the mind of a junky. We have to keep perpective here. The idea is to solve or at least lessen the problem. Just punishing these women isn't in any way going to help them or the babies. Its just not. Plus with how fucked up and spread thin out legal and prison systems are already they would most likely be out in less than a year anyway. Not enough time to kick dope. The question is a matter of human rights. I think that out of the box legislative thinking is in order here. Throwing the chick in jail after she has givin birth to a sick child has accomplished nothing, has it? She will just get out and most likely do it again. So, the question is. At what point should the government step in? Before or after the kid is borne. As Angel and I had discussed earlier. Someone has to be 18 and self admit themselves to a rehab facility. Maybe if it were a law and you or I could HAVE someone administersd before its to late. But then we are also giving the government more juisdiction in the area of deciding what is best for us in general. And we all know how when we give them an inch they take a mile, especially in the area of Child Protective Services. Which is an incompitent organization. My cousin's kids just got taken away. They gave them to his mom. WHO IS AS BIG OF A CRACKHEAD ALCOHOLC AS HE IS!!!. What the fuck do they know. Plus a pregnant Chick that is detoxing is very likely to miscarry anyway. This is not just a simple issue of prosecute and be done with it.

that is ludicrous... do you realise now many repeat offenders are out running around...
with that logic... we should just let child molesters and rapists etc. all go free... just because they wont learn from jail and will do it again anyways
no... all these scumbags need to do much harder time...

 

[Sassy69]

Adopt a pet instead.

 

[pin]

that is ludicrous... do you realise now many repeat offenders are out running around...
with that logic... we should just let child molesters and rapists etc. all go free... just because they wont learn from jail and will do it again anyways
no... all these scumbags need to do much harder time...

No. Child molesters and rapists should be shot, so we don't have to pay tax money feeding the sick freaks. They are a menace to society in general. Drug addicted women its a completely seperate issue. You are comparing apples to oranges. Most junkies don't want to be. If good laws were in place a womans pregnancy is a unique legal opportunity to force her to get help. If a judge could order her into a rehab center on lockdown recieving medical treatment until she gives birth I think that is a better solution than prison.

 

[theprofessor]

No. Child molesters and rapists should be shot, so we don't have to pay tax money feeding the sick freaks. They are a menace to society in general. Drug addicted women its a completely seperate issue. You are comparing apples to oranges. Most junkies don't want to be. If good laws were in place a womans pregnancy is a unique legal opportunity to force her to get help. If a judge could order her into a rehab center on lockdown recieving medical treatment until she gives birth I think that is a better solution than prison.

well lets just shoot them all... and let God sort 'em out...
realy... feeding your habit while pregnant... knowing what you are doing to the child is just as sick in my eyes...
pregnant junkies arent a menace to society?... interesting... ...dont buy it.
you also have to realise i only used rapists and child molesters as examples...
what about theives... they get released and do it again...
what about small time marijuana offenders... they get into prison... learn how to smuggle coke... get released... and guess what...
like you said... your original argument "ealier in this thread is that jail is not a deterant for anything in the mind of a junky".... well... jail isnt much of a deterant for any type of criminal now... is it... or they wouldnt be doing it in the first place...

 

[needtogetaas]

yes

 

[pin]

well lets just shoot them all... and let God sort 'em out...
realy... feeding your habit while pregnant... knowing what you are doing to the child is just as sick in my eyes...
pregnant junkies arent a menace to society?... interesting... ...dont buy it.
you also have to realise i only used rapists and child molesters as examples...
what about theives... they get released and do it again...
what about small time marijuana offenders... they get into prison... learn how to smuggle coke... get released... and guess what...
like you said... your original argument "ealier in this thread is that jail is not a deterant for anything in the mind of a junky".... well... jail isnt much of a deterant for any type of criminal now... is it... or they wouldnt be doing it in the first place...

So if I follow your logic correctly then everyone should get put on full on lock down or shot for every little thing huh? Hmmm, I'm sure glad that you're not in charge. Have you ever heard of the philosophy that the punishment should fit the crime? Wow. And you're right feeding your habit while pregnant is sick. These women ARE SICK. They need treatment not prison. You are trying to paint them as malicious souless bitches who don't give a shit. And there probably are some out there. But the ones I've known aren't that way. They care. They check themselves into rehab, but the problem is that if you check yourself in you can check yourself out. The laws in place are inadequate. We are not talking about a malicious premeditated crime. We are talking about a struggle. A struggle to WANT to do what is right but not being able to pull it off alone. Theives and murderers don't have any intention of doing what is right. The pot head sitting on the couch is indifferent either way. You come off sounding like a fucking Nazi if you think that the solution to every little thing is punishment punishment punishment. Rapists should be punished! Drug addicted mothers should be helped. Fuck.

 

[theprofessor]

So if I follow your logic correctly then everyone should get put on full on lock down or shot for every little thing huh? Hmmm, I'm sure glad that you're not in charge. Have you ever heard of the philosophy that the punishment should fit the crime? Wow. And you're right feeding your habit while pregnant is sick. These women ARE SICK. They need treatment not prison. You are trying to paint them as malicious souless bitches who don't give a shit. And there probably are some out there. But the ones I've known aren't that way. They care. They check themselves into rehab, but the problem is that if you check yourself in you can check yourself out. The laws in place are inadequate. We are not talking about a malicious premeditated crime. We are talking about a struggle. A struggle to WANT to do what is right but not being able to pull it off alone. Theives and murderers don't have any intention of doing what is right. The pot head sitting on the couch is indifferent either way. You come off sounding like a fucking Nazi if you think that the solution to every little thing is punishment punishment punishment. Rapists should be punished! Drug addicted mothers should be helped. Fuck.

now you are twisting what i said... i never once said anything about locking down everyone for every little thing... put it in bold if you can quote me on it...
im playing on your logic that women who commit the crime of child abuse should go free "just because they wont learn anything..." ...only using these other offenders as examples... and in no way have i even commented on any form of punishment for other's ...besides a sarcastic "let God sort 'em out"... making a mockery of your statement on shooting rapists and child molesters...
yes... the crime should fit the punishment... all small time marijuana offenders should be released for starters...
but child endangerment (at the least...) is a pretty serious offense to me... i suppose if you gave a 5 year old some meth we should just put you in rehab though... ...its the same shit...

 

[pin]

now you are twisting what i said... i never once said anything about locking down everyone for every little thing... put it in bold if you can quote me on it...
im playing on your logic that women who commit the crime of child abuse should go free "just because they wont learn anything..." ...only using these other offenders as examples... and in no way have i even commented on any form of punishment for other's ...besides a sarcastic "let God sort 'em out"... making a mockery of your statement on shooting rapists and child molesters...
yes... the crime should fit the punishment... all small time marijuana offenders should be released for starters...
but child endangerment (at the least...) is a pretty serious offense to me... i suppose if you gave a 5 year old some meth we should just put you in rehab though... ...its the same shit...

OK Ok, I'm with you now. I wasn't picking up on your sarcasm, because you seem to be trying to lump pregnant addicts in with rapists and murderers. An arguement that still carries no weight with me. An other miscommunication that I've pick up is that I'm not saying that they should just "go free" I never said that. But I don't believe that just tossing a new mother in the clink is a resonable solution to a big and complex problem. I'm saying that laws need to be in place that can allow a judge or a family member or friend to have a woman institutionalized and given medical treatment until an M.D. deems her fit for release or until the child is borne or both.
The "giving meth to a 5 year old" analogy cannot be reasonably applied here either. Its a silly arguement. Of course any sicko who gives meth to a child should be put away forever. It is silly because you've once again either ignored or completely missed my arguement concerning INTENT. Giving a child meth is a malicious act because the givers addiction has nothing to do with the child. A pregnant mothers addiction does. My arguement is that most addicted mothers have no INTENTION on hurting their unborne child. INTENT is argued in court everyday. This is where "the punishment must fit the crime Philosophy must be applied". Feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding you. But you seem preoccupied with seeing justice fulfilled through punishment rather that attemting to find a solution that benefits everyone. I'm saying that our legal and prison systems are fucked up and tend to worsen problems. And I'm sure you would agree with me on this point considering what you wrote a couple of posts ago.