Shotgun Approach to training...

[b fold the truth]

When I first started lifting, as to help my Martial Art training and health problems, I hired a personal trainer. He had me doing the "shotgun approach" so to speak to training. Several things were constant in my training though...bench press, squat, chin mostly. Every week we changed reps, weight, variation of the exercise, rest, sets, etc...and I grew quite a bit from it.

If everything works but not for long (statement which I agree with 99.9% of the time) then anyone ever think about picking out every type of routine you can think of and doing something different every time they train?

One week do 5x5, 5x2, 20 rep sets, giant sets, super sets, cables, barbell, dbell, machines, isolation exercises, oly lifts, powerlifts, drop sets, 21's, pyramid, rev pyramid, etc....

Of course you would have to find the ones which worked best for you...and rotate between those...

Any thoughts?

B True

 

[The Shadow]

When I first started lifting, as to help my Martial Art training and health problems, I hired a personal trainer. He had me doing the "shotgun approach" so to speak to training. Several things were constant in my training though...bench press, squat, chin mostly. Every week we changed reps, weight, variation of the exercise, rest, sets, etc...and I grew quite a bit from it.

If everything works but not for long (statement which I agree with 99.9% of the time) then anyone ever think about picking out every type of routine you can think of and doing something different every time they train?

One week do 5x5, 5x2, 20 rep sets, giant sets, super sets, cables, barbell, dbell, machines, isolation exercises, oly lifts, powerlifts, drop sets, 21's, pyramid, rev pyramid, etc....

Of course you would have to find the ones which worked best for you...and rotate between those...

Any thoughts?

B True

My routine from bodypart-bodypart is different EVERY time I train...no exceptions.

To me:

Heavy basic compound movement (in the 4-8 rep range)followed by two "isolation" exercises with a slightly higher rep range seems to work for longer periods of time.

Pyramid on the compound and either straight sets or supersets on the isolations work well for me.

Strip sets can be beneficial if you have the right mind set. You get 3x as many growth reps when you do these:

x amount of weight till failure(growth rep1), strip weight go to failure(#2)...etc...so on a triple drop you get 4 reps to the point of failure. You can argue that you can get jst as many growth reps on straight sets - which is ture, but the strip sets are what I call Density growth reps - meaning that they are dense in that there is NO rest between them.....

 

[ZZuluZ]

I think it is a common fallacy that changing your routine very often is needed for growth. I think it has arisen because

1.) Many people stagnate doing the same things repeatedly

2.) Variation is mentally stimulating

3.) Variation offers quick benefits.

Changing the exercises often is definitely NOT A GOOD THING for people who are looking to get bigger. Every time you switch exercise your body will adapt neurally first. This means very little growth is takign place [as illustrated by just about every study you'll find, Kraemer and Fleck is one of them]. It is however a good thing for the strength athlete.

As for switching rep schemes/density/TUT, I do think it is a positive thing. However I'd still stick to a cycle 4-6 weeks then change. There's no use switching every week unless you're an elite world class athlete. You're body will not adapt that quickly.

" x amount of weight till failure(growth rep1), strip weight go to failure(#2)...etc...so on a triple drop you get 4 reps to the point of failure. You can argue that you can get jst as many growth reps on straight sets - which is ture, but the strip sets are what I call Density growth reps - meaning that they are dense in that there is NO rest between them....."

What are your thoughts on CNS fatigue? Is it your opinion that continuous TUT is the prerequiste for growth?

-Zulu

 

[The Shadow]

I thing that TUT is the underlying principal for any w.o, pwrfltinhg routine.

 

[ZZuluZ]

That explains why marathon runners have huge legs.

-Zulu

 

[The Shadow]

That explains why marathon runners have huge legs.

-Zulu

 

[ZZuluZ]

Just a little joke

I don't believe in TUT being the magical answer to hypertrophy after reading a lot about it.

Do you believe in continuous TUT or a certain TUT per set as being optimal?


-Zulu

 

[The Shadow]

Just a little joke

I don't believe in TUT being the magical answer to hypertrophy after reading a lot about it.

Do you believe in continuous TUT or a certain TUT per set as being optimal?


-Zulu

Both can be effective...on a triple drop, if you keep the reps to around 3-4 per drop - you are still in the "zone" for growth ie just above 60 seconds.

Straight sets with a moderate rep tempo for sets of 6-8 reps seems optimal for size as well.

Sets of very low reps of 2-5 with moderate tempo are best for strength(20-40 seconds)

TUT for marathoners is off the chart - thus little muscle mass

TUT sprinters 10-12 seconds - power

 

[ZZuluZ]

" Both can be effective...on a triple drop, if you keep the reps to around 3-4 per drop - you are still in the "zone" for growth ie just above 60 seconds. "

A la Charles Poliquin 40-70 seconds for hypertrophy and 10-20 seconds for strength?

How does your volume/intensity/frequency factor into this? Or do you factor everything AROUND your planned TUT?

-Zulu

 

[The Shadow]

" Both can be effective...on a triple drop, if you keep the reps to around 3-4 per drop - you are still in the "zone" for growth ie just above 60 seconds. "

A la Charles Poliquin 40-70 seconds for hypertrophy and 10-20 seconds for strength?

How does your volume/intensity/frequency factor into this? Or do you factor everything AROUND your planned TUT?

-Zulu

yes.

Volume on this type of program is low(9 or so sets). One body part per day- 5 days per week.

Intensity is high as I go to failure on every set excluding the first couple of sets on the first exercise and the first set on subsequent exercises.

No forced reps, partials etc.


This is a particular phase of training for me....I do not train this way year round.

 

[ZZuluZ]

Do you go to failure year round? Or do you periodize intensity?

Why do you switch everything up WEEKLY as you mentioned initially?

-Zulu

 

[The Shadow]

Failure year round - on compounds I do. I may or may not on ancillary exercises.

personally I find that if I do a set routine more than twice I am not sore from it, I do not get the same kind of pump as initially and I feel the need to change it.

It might be as simple as changing the order of the exercises or changeing rep tempo or range.

 

[ZZuluZ]

"Failure year round - on compounds I do. I may or may not on ancillary exercises. "

In my humble opinion, the other way around would be far more logical.

' personally I find that if I do a set routine more than twice I am not sore from it, I do not get the same kind of pump as initially and I feel the need to change it. "

Why is getting sore a good indicator? Why seek it?

-Zulu

 

[MarshallPenniford]

It's the load combined with TUT that creates the growth. That's why marathon runners don't have huge legs, but fat people have huge calves -- their TUT is even more off the charts.

So "off the charts" TUT is a good thing, just add load and you've got growth.

 

[The Shadow]

"Failure year round - on compounds I do. I may or may not on ancillary exercises. "

In my humble opinion, the other way around would be far more logical.

' personally I find that if I do a set routine more than twice I am not sore from it, I do not get the same kind of pump as initially and I feel the need to change it. "

Why is getting sore a good indicator? Why seek it?

-Zulu

I get more growth from all out squats etc...than leg extensions.

NO soreness means an adaptation to said stimulus - nothing more.

 

[The Shadow]

I should add that by failure on compounds - that might mean sets of 20-30 on squats deads, etc. Just as shock value.

 

[ZZuluZ]

"It's the load combined with TUT that creates the growth. That's why marathon runners don't have huge legs, but fat people have huge calves -- their TUT is even more off the charts.

So "off the charts" TUT is a good thing, just add load and you've got growth."

What are you saying here? Weighted vests? How does this translate to working out in the gym? You're going to train 24/7 to mimic a fat person?

"
I get more growth from all out squats etc...than leg extensions. "

Yes, but going to failure on compound movements really strains the CNS. Thus you're taking a week to recuperate evn though your muscles have recuperated in 3-4 days. Going to failure on isolation exercises is not as bad because the stress on the CNS is not nearly as great.

"NO soreness means an adaptation to said stimulus - nothing more."

Doesn't mean it's positive. Actually, you're better off avoiding soreness IMHO.

-Zulu

 

[b fold the truth]

So what are the thoughts about the shotgun approach...haha

I change my routine weekly to some variation...but to change your entire workout...what do you think?

Was talking to a friend a few weeks ago and he was getting bored with his training and wanted to switch things up a bit...but didn't know what to do. I told him to just pick a routine...a different one every week for 2-3 weeks to maybe shock his body or to find something new that he likes...then develop a routine.

Lots of people get bored with their routine...

B True

 

[MarshallPenniford]

If you get bored, change. Otherwise I don't think sticking with the same exercises is a problem at all.

 

[Arioch]

That's why marathon runners don't have huge legs,

That, and the fact that huge people suck at running long distances. It is more than just a training effect, as it would include genetic predisposition, as well as the athletic selection process that determines what marathon runners look like.

Comparing sprinters and marathon runners as samples of what TUT can produce is a highly flawed argument. When one sees the sprinters, and the marathoners, as a general rule, they are seeing the ones who do well, and if discussing the ones who compete, at, say, the Olympic level, you are watching people with a genetic predisposition that enables them to perform at this level.

Also, sprinters spend a lot more time lifting, and train much heavier. If marathoners lift at all, it is generally rather limited, only in the off-season, and the poundages are what most sprinters would consider warm-up weights.

As an example, in a recent issue of runner's world, one marathoner was talking about weight training in the off-season, and how his favorite workout was to wander through the weight machines, and do one set at random, alternating between upper body and lower body, with no real plan. It shames me to say that he had a PHd in exercise physiology.

Another example, once again from runner's world (I refuse to capitalize it): Squats are great for strengthening the legs in the off-season. To make them more effective, you can even hold weights in your hands.

 

[Arioch]

So what are the thoughts about the shotgun approach...haha

Well, I think that a limited amount of both consistancy and variation are necessary, but the amount varies from individual to individual. You are aware of how I train, but my son can grind away for 16 weeks at the same exercises over and over and still make gains and set records at competitions.

Good examples of people who do well with little variation: Coan, Bridges, Gaugler, Dave Ricks.

Good examples of people who do well with a great deal of variation: WSB (surprise). Some of them change their assistance work weekly, or bi-weekly. Core lifts are always done, but the weight is always changing, as well as the type of added resistance.

It basically depends on how quickly the athlete attenuates to the program. And there is no way to tell until the lifter's progress starts to halt if something needs to be changed or not.

And no, there is no physiological reason why the exercises need to be changed, all the reasons are CNS and other NS systems related.

 

[ZZuluZ]

" Another example, once again from runner's world (I refuse to capitalize it): Squats are great for strengthening the legs in the off-season. To make them more effective, you can even hold weights in your hands."

LMAO....that's hilarious man

Marathon runners don't have huge legs, not only because they're all slow twitch fiber but also from an adaptional POV.

I mean, you want the body to run huge distances. The only way to accomplish this is by reducing bodyweight. As much as gaining muscle from weightlifting is an adaptational response, so is running a marathon.

"Comparing sprinters and marathon runners as samples of what TUT can produce is a highly flawed argument."

I hope this was not directed at me. I do not consider TUT as a major factor in gaining mass or strength.

-Zulu

 

[Arioch]

I hope this was not directed at me. I do not consider TUT as a major factor in gaining mass or strength.

Just in general. The marathoner example had already been pointed out.

Notice how I refrained from pointing out that this is a typical Mentzer argument?

 

[ZZuluZ]

Is it?

I thought Mike Mentzer had nothing else to say but:

Use a slow tempo. Go to failure. Sit on your ass the rest of the week and do nothing.

-Zulu

 

[Arioch]

Oh no. He was the master of the logical fallacy.

As a general rule, I try not to bash people that much, but in some cases it is very difficult.

 

[MarshallPenniford]

How can you think TUT isn't the biggest factor in gaining mass? It's got 2 element to it: time and TENSION. Without load induced tension on the muscle, you have nothing. Unless you're going to zap yourself with Abtronics all day

 

[ZZuluZ]

'How can you think TUT isn't the biggest factor in gaining mass? "

You recommend doing sets of 50? Or do you recommend doing sets of 6-12?

-Zulu

 

[MarshallPenniford]

For what purpose? Gaining mass?

6-12 of course. Greater tension. Tension is more important than time.

 

[ZZuluZ]

It's not one thing or the other. It is a combination of things. A fine balance between the myriad of factors involved in lifting.

-Zulu

 

[Vortexx]

Mimic the fat people, Weigthed vests is the answer!

If you can't afford them just load up your backpack with bricks, go to your local mall and walk the electric stairs all day. Just tell the people that you constantly bump into that you are sponsored by SSalexSS Overtraining (tm) , this way the gospel will spread fast...