Schools Remove Ten Commandments; Pastor Arrested

[p0ink]

Schools Remove Ten Commandments; Pastor Arrested
Newsnet5 | June 11, 2003

WEST UNION, Ohio -- About 30 people were taken into police custody Monday after protesting the attempted removal of Ten Commandments tablets, but most were released without being charged.

One person was arrested, however, and that was the Rev. Bill Ryan, who was carried from the scene at Peebles High School by several Adams County deputies, Cincinnati TV station WLWT reported.

A judge ruled last year that the Ten Commandments had to be removed on the first business day after the end of the 2002-03 school year for the Adams County/Ohio Valley School District, WLWT reported.


"It's a little heartbreaking," protestor Terry Lewis said. "Our children and grandchildren have the right to read those commandments at any time they want."

In some cases Monday, church members watched their pastors go into custody, WLWT reported. Sharon Fulton, wife of the Rev. Phil Fulton, said she never dreamed she'd see her husband in the back of a police cruiser.

"I think our rights are being taken away, just for the sake of one person, who's a small minority of people," she said.

The one person is Barry Baker, who initiated the legal battle in 1999, WLWT reported. He came Monday with camera in hand, hoping to record the images of large cranes removing the 800-pound tablets from the grounds at Peebles.

But as the protesters refused to budge, local officers began to wonder if they had jurisdiction to enforce a federal court order. Baker told WLWT his reasoning for wanting the tablets removed.

"We have laws here," he said. "(The tablets) are immoral."

The empty space where from which the Ten Commandments stone was lifted has been filled with a temporary sign that reads, "I Shall Return." WLWT reported that there are some appeals processes available to the protesters, so it's possible the tablets could return some day.

All four tablets were removed by Monday evening from Peebles, West Union, North Adams and Manchester high schools.

Protesters, sheriff's deputies and school officials prayed together after the last monument was loaded on a truck and driven away.

"These people are religious people and don't want to cause me or anyone else trouble," Sheriff Kermit Howard said. "We're just here because there's a court order."

 

[WODIN]

I don't support state sponsership of any religous doctrine and having the tablet-sculpture on school property is just that.

If you have the 10 commandments then I want the Entire text of the Hammurabi code on a statue too. Plus the Bhagavad Ghita while we're at it.

 

[p0ink]

I don't support state sponsership of any religous doctrine and having the tablet-sculpture on school property is just that.

If you have the 10 commandments then I want the Entire text of the Hammurabi code on a statue too. Plus the Bhagavad Ghita while we're at it.

this isnt state sponsorship. they arent forcing anyone to become a christian or a jew.

there is no 'separation of church and state' in the bill of rights. in fact, 'separation', 'church', and 'state' are not even mentioned in the first amendment.

since it is blatantly obvious that so many of you arent familiar with the first amendment (let alone any of the others), allow me.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

all this does is it forbids congress from establishing a state religion. it's 'freedom of religion' not 'freedom from religion.

the only constitution that guarantees the complete separation of church and state is the former soviet union's constitution.

"Article 52....In the USSR, the church is separated from the state, and the school from the church"

the phrase 'separation of church and state' was coined by thomas jefferson, when he wrote a letter to calm the fears that the congregationalists were going to become the national religion. since he was not a member of the congregationalists, he refered to them as the 'church'.

 

[WODIN]

If state money is going to the erection of any edifice representing any paticular religion then it is sponsership.

And

If my religion is no religion then your state sponsership is oppressing my free exercise of my nonreligous state of being.

 

[p0ink]

If state money is going to the erection of any edifice representing any paticular religion then it is sponsership.

And

If my religion is no religion then your state sponsership is oppressing my free exercise of my nonreligous state of being.

i agree that state money should not be used to promote various religious ideas/symbols, but these tablets have already been there for a long time already. plus, you dont know if the state bought these, or if they were a gift.

just because there are objects of religious meaning in a state building, does not mean it is oppressing you in any way. do they force you to pray, take communion, etc? are you being forced to read them? are you free to still have your own beliefs?

that's like saying a bible in a library is oppressing you, even though no one is forcing you to abide by it or read it.

 

[gettinlarger]

I dont think they should stay. The Commandments, I mean. I don't think any religious objects, books, etc have any place at a public school.

 

[WODIN]

It's nothing like saying that having the bible in a library is opressive. I don't have to look up the bible and every other religous text can be found there as well.

If I walk into a state house and they have a flaming jesus on a cross thats 20 fuckin feet high --- thats just freaky..especially the whole flame thing. I'd find that annoying and oppressive.

That's why ANY religous symbolism should not be on ANY state funded ground.

First it starts with those cute little praying hands, then you have a small 2 foot statuette of the bible open to the 10 commandments, next thing you know you got 20 or 30 foot high flaming Jesus on the Cross statues popping up!

 

[Frackal]

I agree with the decision to remove the tablets


And I guarantee you those 'christians' would have a fit if a minority group decided to put up some satanic religious items on the other side of the school, even though they would be just as justified as they are paying taxes on the school like everyone else

Dont be a limbaugh and scarborough lemming.

Besides that jackass on scarborough is like "this country was founded on christian principles" I guess he forgot the quakers, puritans, catholics, deists ect...jackass

 

[p0ink]

I agree with the decision to remove the tablets

And I guarantee you those 'christians' would have a fit if a minority group decided to put up some satanic religious items on the other side of the school, even though they would be just as justified as they are paying taxes on the school like everyone else

Dont be a limbaugh and scarborough lemming.

Besides that jackass on scarborough is like "this country was founded on christian principles" I guess he forgot the quakers, puritans, catholics, deists ect...jackass

then, once again, you disagree with the constition and favor big government; you favor the minority over the majority.

there is no such thing as 'separation of church and state'.

if 'satanists' wanted to put up some esoteric symbols, that would be up to the school board, the same school board that originally agreed to the ten commandments tablets.

oh yeah, quakers, puritans, congregationalists, catholics, baptists, methodists, protestants, all of the major religions during our country's founding all had a similar belief structure.

i didnt hear limbaugh bring this up, and i dont watch scarborough.

actually this country was founded on judeo-christian beliefs

 

[Frackal]

If the School Board (govt) denied them the right to put up their satanist artifacts, it would be the exact same style of tyranny against religion you are condemning here.

 

[p0ink]

If the School Board (govt) denied them the right to put up their satanist artifacts, it would be the exact same style of tyranny against religion you are condemning here.

the school board was granted the authority to make those kinds of decisions, just like they have the authority to choose certain textbooks over others.

 

[Y_lifter]

Does this mean all Christmas paraphanalia will not be displayed
in Schools or Govt offices this year?

Or do we still say that CHRISTmas is a Secular holiday ?

 

[powerforward]

try writing laws without using the ten commandments as a point of reference.

 

[milo hobgoblin]

Well.

Christian propaganda has no place in schools anyways.

If you WANT your children to see how incredibly hypocritical most Christian are... have them read the ten commandments.

The first thing any bright child would say is "how come they dont do any of these things?"

Why is it that you retarded fucking zealots cant see the obvious... SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE IS THEIR TO PROTECT YOUR CHRISTIAN VALUES AS MUCH AS EVERY OTHER RELIGION OR NON- RELIGIONS VALUES!!

THE PURPOSE OF SCHOOL IS SECULAR LEARNING. imagine if all of your childrens teachers were non christian???? In America no school can restrict hiring based on religion..

What if your childs English teacher was a satanist? or a Jehovas Witness... or a scientologist...

You dumbasses think everyone is a Christian.... are you willing to bet on that? If you had your way... you'd lose.

 

[Y_lifter]

I just think if it's done in schools (which I agree with), that it should be done Everywhere in goverment spaces.

The good thing as a christian is that even in schools where prayer is forbidden, teachers and students still pray on their own
time.

 

[the nature boy]

Scientology needs to be taught at schools if christianity is taught there as well.

that would be cool.

 

[Y_lifter]

And that DIANETICS book would take up a whole locker almost.

 

[big_bad_buff]

The following oath is taken by all personnel inducted into the armed forces of the United States, as found in the US Code, Section 502

I, _________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God

 

[Y_lifter]

Also, Check your wallet bro's and Brah's and look at those
things we call Goverment notes.

 

[Frackal]

The following oath is taken by all personnel inducted into the armed forces of the United States, as found in the US Code, Section 502

I, _________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God

God doesnt mean the Christian version only, dumbass


p0ink - "the school board was granted the authority to make those kinds of decisions, just like they have the authority to choose certain textbooks over others."

And the courts are granted authority over the schoolboard in the matters of disputes of this type... it's still government making the decisions either way, if you disagree, you're just splitting hairs to justify your argument

Also I dont "once again believe in big govt" - I still stand by my feelings on the FCC media consolidation; sorry if you are unable to understand why a single conglomerate having a monopoly on all forms of medium in a city or state, or even country is very dangerous.


Lastly, I agree with the ideal of separation of church and state. Part of Freedom of Religion is the lack of government enforcement of one religion over another. Or have you forgotten that state-sponsered religious intolerance was one of the core reasons for migration to America?

 

[Frackal]

I just think if it's done in schools (which I agree with), that it should be done Everywhere in goverment spaces.

The good thing as a christian is that even in schools where prayer is forbidden, teachers and students still pray on their own
time.

So you think America should be a religious theocracy?

I love this attitude you have.

And you ARE aware that "In God We Trust" is talking about God, not your 'christian version' of God.

You realize one reason why there is so much abrasion towards Christians in this country is you generally grossly hypocritical elitist individuals have hammered your "do as I say, not as I do" ideals into the rest of us to the point of nausea.

 

[big4life]

Religion is so often used to justify people's actions, making it a complete joke, so it sucks.

Politics is nothing but a complete sham. Politicians will tell you what they think that you want to hear just for your vote, making them and their words useless. So politics suck also.



When you combine the two, religion and politics, you really have a winner.

 

[Y_lifter]

Originally posted by Frackal
So you think America should be a religious theocracy?
I love this attitude you have.

And you ARE aware that "In God We Trust" is talking about God, not your 'christian version' of God.
You realize one reason why there is so much abrasion towards Christians in this country is you generally grossly hypocritical elitist individuals have hammered your "do as I say, not as I do" ideals into the rest of us to the point of nausea.

IN GOD WE TRUST was originated by the mostly Protestant English that founded this country.

Christian or not, GOD is a religious word.

What does the "DO AS I SAY" comment have to do with the seperation of Church and State discussion?

 

[Frackal]

I was attempting to explain the distaste that many in this country have for 'modern christians.'

And like always, this applies to the majority (like curling) , not the minority like my grandparents who use it to lead better lives and be kind to others rather than to make themselves feel elitist

 

[big_bad_buff]

you're hilarious. you sound like one of those baby boomers that never went to college, and now want to express your fucked up opinions on everything, but no one really cares what you think and this makes you mad, doesnt it! are you a mad guy?

God doesnt mean the Christian version only, dumbass


p0ink - "the school board was granted the authority to make those kinds of decisions, just like they have the authority to choose certain textbooks over others."

And the courts are granted authority over the schoolboard in the matters of disputes of this type... it's still government making the decisions either way, if you disagree, you're just splitting hairs to justify your argument

Also I dont "once again believe in big govt" - I still stand by my feelings on the FCC media consolidation; sorry if you are unable to understand why a single conglomerate having a monopoly on all forms of medium in a city or state, or even country is very dangerous.


Lastly, I agree with the ideal of separation of church and state. Part of Freedom of Religion is the lack of government enforcement of one religion over another. Or have you forgotten that state-sponsered religious intolerance was one of the core reasons for migration to America?

 

[Frackal]

you're hilarious. you sound like one of those baby boomers that never went to college, and now want to express your fucked up opinions on everything, but no one really cares what you think and this makes you mad, doesnt it! are you a mad guy?

what th

 

[bignate73]

The following oath is taken by all personnel inducted into the armed forces of the United States, as found in the US Code, Section 502

So help me God

also you can elect to have dog tags that say "atheist" on them. (which you get persecuted for in boot camp if the DI's find out, ironically) mine say "no religious pref." and BTW, i skipped that part of the oath.

as was noted earlier, you dont have to look at it.....i suppose. why cant it be private then? if you dont have to look at it, why is it there? i'll be the answer is...for those that want to look at it. those people being a select religious group, and now we are back to square one with preferential treatment of christians. if someone wants to read the 10 commandments....keep a copy in your wallet. its your personal religion...keep it that way.

atheists and agnostics seem to be the lowest maintenance people there are, no assembly required. does not require batteries, and no moving parts that can get choked on by children under 3. if you catch my drift.

 

[Y_lifter]

Originally posted by bignate73
atheists and agnostics seem to be the lowest maintenance people there are, no assembly required. does not require batteries, and no moving parts that can get choked on by children under 3. if you catch my drift.

I'm not catchin it bro... Low Maintenance atheists ? 3 yr olds?
Is that a Catholic Priest reference?
Is so, that's a whole different issue IMO as a protestant.

I've found that most people of high moral character, be it religious or not, are the most easy going, go with the flow types I know.

Compare this to the No holds barred, anything goes, no rules,
whatever feels good types, and IMO, they are the ones needing
the most support and maintenance from society.

Just because someone professes to be religious does not immediately make them of high moral character.
I think that's the agreement of this discussion for me..

 

[bignate73]

I'm not catchin it bro... Low Maintenance atheists ? 3 yr olds?
Is that a Catholic Priest reference?
Is so, that's a whole different issue IMO as a protestant.

I've found that most people of high moral character, be it religious or not, are the most easy going, go with the flow types I know.

Compare this to the No holds barred, anything goes, no rules,
whatever feels good types, and IMO, they are the ones needing
the most support and maintenance from society.

Just because someone professes to be religious does not immediately make them of high moral character.
I think that's the agreement of this discussion for me..

LOL. no thats not what i was getting at, but now i see how that can be misinterpreted...oops. freudian slip of sorts...

i was just saying that basically agnostics and atheists dont need reminders and such. its somewhat akin to putting up S&M statues (as an example) or something similar that is best left private. religion is very individual and doesnt need to be in everyone's face. especially in front of a federal building, an institution that works for all citizens. it gives off the impression of exclusivity.

i agree with you on the second part. going with the flow, down to earth people come from everywhere and tend to not care one way or another who/what you believe, just that you are cool with them.

 

[crmdogg]

i think everyone is getting a little to technical with this issue. It is pretty simple to me, they need to keep religion out of school, not one specific religion but all of them, and that solves any and all problems in my opinion.

 

[atlantabiolab]

Its a shame no one has grasped the basic problem with this issue: federal control of local beliefs, through a nationalized education system.

If anyone believes that the Constitution, by the intent of the Founders, wished to remove the citizens the right to collectively express their religous beliefs, then you need to read some history. Explain to us why this is a recent issue? The Constitution is over 200 years old.

Local beliefs differ from locale and should be fitting to the majority. Since you are free to move to locations that suit your beliefs, then you must accept the local customs and laws. If I were in San Francisco then I would have to accept the concept of pure liberal stupidity; if I were in Bumblefuck, AL, then I would have to accept the concept of religious redneckism, but in both cases I am free to move.

I have no problem with the removal of this religious artifact, for hopefully it will open the eyes of some to the total control government wishes to impose on all of its citizens. Since nationalized education forces all to pay for the education of its children, and under this system forces its ideology onto those who attend, then hopefully some will realize the problems associated with this system and demand school vouchers or a abolition of the Department of Education.

You wish to put your children into government schools then you have to play by their rules.

 

[DBCooper]

State and church are supposed to be seperate. I'am still wondering why the churches receive tax breaks and why people can't sell liquer on Sunday's, it comes down to who has more power and money=which the churches do. Nothing against them but The U.S.A was a free-any religion-good country at some point.

 

[p0ink]

State and church are supposed to be seperate.

according to what? all the constitution guarantees is that the government will never set a national religion and the freedom OF religion, not freedom from religion.

 

[DBCooper]

It also says no law respecting religion, also the right for people to keep and bear arms, not to guaranteed anymore.

 

[rsnoble]

The new Bush Commandments will replace them.

 

[Frackal]

Its a shame no one has grasped the basic problem with this issue: federal control of local beliefs, through a nationalized education system.

If anyone believes that the Constitution, by the intent of the Founders, wished to remove the citizens the right to collectively express their religous beliefs, then you need to read some history. Explain to us why this is a recent issue? The Constitution is over 200 years old.

Local beliefs differ from locale and should be fitting to the majority. Since you are free to move to locations that suit your beliefs, then you must accept the local customs and laws. If I were in San Francisco then I would have to accept the concept of pure liberal stupidity; if I were in Bumblefuck, AL, then I would have to accept the concept of religious redneckism, but in both cases I am free to move.

I have no problem with the removal of this religious artifact, for hopefully it will open the eyes of some to the total control government wishes to impose on all of its citizens. Since nationalized education forces all to pay for the education of its children, and under this system forces its ideology onto those who attend, then hopefully some will realize the problems associated with this system and demand school vouchers or a abolition of the Department of Education.

You wish to put your children into government schools then you have to play by their rules.

This is a good post... Public education in this country, particularly at the Junior High and High School levels are a complete and utter failure. I would definitely agree with the type of individualism atlantabiolab states here


On a side note, one major problem with public education in high schools in my opinion is the faculty-driven emphasis on sports achievement over academic achievement.

If academic achievements were lauded to the degree or (how it should be, even greater than) the degree that sports are, you would see a big shift in focus on the part of the students as well as the teachers.

 

[milo hobgoblin]

............

This thread makes baby Jesus cry

 

[curling]

You know the worst part about these liberals trying to take God out of the county He blessed so much. Is that they are hypocritical. They say no religion in school yet they teach the accult to them daily by reading those witchcraft training books to them called the Harry Potter series. If no 10 commandments the no witchcraft or magic either.

 

[curling]

Re: ............

This thread makes baby Jesus cry

FYI Jesus is not a baby anymore. And He is no longer be a lamb for mankind. He is a risen Lord of Lords and King of Kings. He will be one powerful and vengeful ruler when He comes again.

 

[powerforward]

how is this hypocrisy?

 

[Spartacus]

Re: Re: ............

He will be one powerful and vengeful ruler when He comes again.

..this kinda sums up the hypocrisy

 

[curling]

how is this hypocrisy?

Well if they say no religion yet they read Harry potter to the kids in class which is witchcraft then that is hypocrisy is it not?

 

[powerforward]

no i'm talking about 4everhung's post.

 

[the nature boy]

Well if they say no religion yet they read Harry potter to the kids in class which is witchcraft then that is hypocrisy is it not?

no, because harry potter is FICTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[curling]

no, because harry potter is FICTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EEEEWWWHHH I love this post. Now I gotcha. So you are saying the Bible is factual huh? Well? come on well?

 

[the nature boy]

EEEEWWWHHH I love this post. Now I gotcha. So you are saying the Bible is factual huh? Well? come on well?

lets not go there. to some its factual, to some it is not. However nobody in thier right mind is saying Harry Potter is real and that's the ONLY point I'm trying to make here.

 

[Robert Jan]

mr Curling is very stupid and should be firmly beaten with a wooden stick

 

[gettinlarger]

Re: Re: ............

FYI Jesus is not a baby anymore. And He is no longer be a lamb for mankind. He is a risen Lord of Lords and King of Kings. He will be one powerful and vengeful ruler when He comes again.

Jesus ain't comin' nowhere.

 

[Robert Jan]

people who take the bible literal are stupid.

doesn`t it say hell descend to earth again and there will be all this light and crap and everybody will see him?

how many fucking jesus`s will there be for the whole world to be able to see him

 

[curling]

lets not go there. to some its factual, to some it is not. However nobody in thier right mind is saying Harry Potter is real and that's the ONLY point I'm trying to make here.

Reeeaallyyy? Did you know that some experts in the accult said Harry Potter was one the best researched witchcrafts books they have. I mean the colors she used for her robes, the spells, the words were like right out of the witchbook magic 101.

Well heck let me put a spin on it then. The Left Behind books for kids are fiction also would it be ok for those to be read in the classroom?

 

[chesty]

If they are not allowed to teach or even have evidence of christianity/judiasm on school grounds then how can they teach any science? The one that comes to mind is the theory of evolution. This is as much a religous belief as creationism.

As for the tablets being immoral, this guy is whacked out of his gord!

I don't worship or anything like that, but one of the principles of this country was religous freedom and the minority have gotten the few liberal courts to agree with them. State sponsorship does not happen just because one talks of christianity in school. It happens when one is forced to believe a certain way or suffer consequences.

Why can't the history and beliefs of christianity be taught just as evolution, atheism etc. Becuase in the end whether or not you believe in god you do believe in something and that is the basis for religion.

 

[Spruceman]

"So help me God" and "In God we trust" does appear to be a bit less crass than the real American expressions "So help me $" and "In $ we trust"