Salary negottiation question

[jerkbox]

Salary negotiation question

ok, when interviewing for a job, at some point (hopefully) the potential employer will ask what salary you are looking for. I see this as a good sign, as they are considering hiring you.

i've been stating my range or specifying the salary i desire, or rather the salary i feel through my research and knowledge of the industry, i deserve.

well, several times now, it's been too high. and so, i don't get the job.

now, i KNOW i am worth what i am asking.

my question is, is it a good idea to instead of stating your salary, to ask them to make an offer first. basically i want to hear what they are offering, and make my decision based on that instead of stating my salary.

what yall think of that?

any other negotiating tips appreciated also.

 

[ZKaudio]

bump, good post, I'm in the quasi-same boat... i asked for about 20k over "market value" at my last 2 interviews and i thought they were going to laugh at me... kinda hard to negotiate when there are 10 other people waiting outside to interview after you

 

[Madcow2]

You could always put it back to them and really they are the ones hiring so they know they are going to have to offer first.

I like the generic, "Well, I look at a position based upon the complete package not just salary. In addition to quality of benefits, work environment, culture and opportunity for advancement are also important criteria." Then I like to throw out, "Why don't you tell me what you paid the last guy, what salary range HR has on file for the job description, and if you have any extra room in your budget. After that, if I don't walk out I might be in the ballpark."

-don't say the last part but I couldn't resist writing it.

 

[Growth&Courage]

You could always put it back to them and really they are the ones hiring so they know they are going to have to offer first.

I like the generic, "Well, I look at a position based upon the complete package not just salary. In addition to quality of benefits, work environment, culture and opportunity for advancement are also important criteria." Then I like to throw out, "Why don't you tell me what you paid the last guy, what salary range HR has on file for the job description, and if you have any extra room in your budget. After that, if I don't walk out I might be in the ballpark."

-don't say the last part but I couldn't resist writing it.

Great statement. I'm impressed...eventhough your prime objective was to settle on the highest salary possible.
I see possibility in salary negotiation with that kind of creative approach, however when we talk about salary negotiation and that's referring to the commonly expereinced kind of discourse faced by people in capitalist economy is that the capital / labor instrumentality is hard to overcome , that is: it is in their intention and interests of employers to extract as much surplus values from you whilst offering the minimum salary possible. Whilst the same is true that employees/laborers/commodities will demand the highest salary in addition to having a set of expectations on their effort amongst the entitlement of other benefits.
What I will add is that there exists an array of other factors into the outcome of salary negotiation too - all the way from how you present yourself through to 'being there in the right place at the right time' as I have often argued when it comes to matters of salary satisfaction, employment opportunity or career guidance.

 

[Madcow2]

For an employer, money is the key but salary isn't always the end-all be all. What they really want is productivity for their $1. So, you might get someone to take a job on the cheap but if he isn't happy and is tempted to look elsewhere it will end up costing a lot more to rehire for the position and get someone else up to speed. Someone who is happy and well treated will work harder during the day and won't have a problem making a few sacrifices from time to time as the company has built goodwill through treating him right. Also, you want someone committed to the company because they gain a lot of knowledge inside that can be valuable to competitors but can be even more valuable if the person being hired has the leadership qualities for advancement. In nearly all cases it's cheaper to promote from within in salary dollars and you generally get someone up and running faster unless the skill is very narrow and very transferable - i.e. specialist commodity where you can hire and expert and they can come right in and start hammering almost right away. Those tend to not be leadership positions though.

Of course the other side of the salary argument is you cash saturate someone and they just sit on their ass earning their base and trying to hold on to the gravy train for as long as they can. This is why variable comp as a percentage of the total increases dramatically with overall responsibility and total pay package. Of course, look at all the CEO/CFO scandals over the past 5 years and that will tell you that corporate America hasn't learned how to set variable comp parameters to properly incentivise management for the company's long term success. Shit, how about scaling the option strike price over time and vest each series gradually and use a longer-term bonus pool method to smooth comp and ensure that big upside performance in a single year followed by crap doesn't inordinately reward someone - this is fairly similar to what Stern Stewart recommends, I imagine the other large consultants should be pushing something fairly similar by now. That could have made a huge difference in a company I used to work for.

Anyway, the long and short is that for employers, it does come down to money and a financial decision but salary is many times not the overwhelming factor in that equation. Of course, this assumes a non-labor type job and fairly sophisticated hiring personel so this view is more common at upper levels but it makes sense even at the lowest levels.

To illustrate, I remember during the recent recession where a department of 15 had 4 people leave (28-40k type positions). The company decided not to immediately replace them and shifted the work over to the remaining. Now these people were getting hammered while the company is saving benefits, taxes, salary the whole boat which comes out to way more than salary alone. After a while these people get fed up, they stop staying late, take longer breaks, and don't work as hard during the hours they are there. This costs the company in a big way. An easy thing to do is to take them all out to an appreciation lunch at a great restaurant, explain that they are really helping the company, and hand them each $1.5K in a bonus. Now these people will bleed the ground red for you. Of course, the short sited company wanted to save 100% and not 98% so they wound up losing more people, having to deal with turnover, quality of service dropped, they lost clients, and bam. Now instead of eating $15K and saving the rest, they loose a $1.5 mil in revenue. Nice move, eh?

Anyway - got to run

 

[George Spellwin]

Re: Salary negotiation question

ok, when interviewing for a job, at some point (hopefully) the potential employer will ask what salary you are looking for. I see this as a good sign, as they are considering hiring you.

i've been stating my range or specifying the salary i desire, or rather the salary i feel through my research and knowledge of the industry, i deserve.

well, several times now, it's been too high. and so, i don't get the job.

now, i KNOW i am worth what i am asking.

my question is, is it a good idea to instead of stating your salary, to ask them to make an offer first. basically i want to hear what they are offering, and make my decision based on that instead of stating my salary.

what yall think of that?

any other negotiating tips appreciated also.

Ok, first off, NEVER give the first number. NEVER.

In an interview, if you are asked about your salary requirements, the answer to give is a variation of the following: "Of course my salary is very important, but I am primarily looking for a position in which I can make a strong contribution to the organization and advance my skill set. I'm sure you have a salary range in mind for this position, What is the salary range that this position pays?"

Ask, then shut up until they tell you.

When they give you the range, let's say they say, "The position pays $50,000 to $70,000."

You would say, "That sounds good, I was looking to make anywhere from $65,000 to $85,000."

In otherwords, you position the low end of your range just below the top end of their range.

Here's some better advice. Get the book "What color is your parachute?" And read it several times. All of the better candidates for the jobs that you are competing against will have read it and so you should have too.

 

[jerkbox]

good stuff people

some places ask what i was making at my last job....do i tell them? do I lie? will they assume i'm lying?

so, how about they offer me something, and it is of course too low, then what's the strategy?

i need some good leverage

 

[Cuthbert]

I would tell the truth if they ask what you are making at your current job. I have heard of people not getting a job because their salary did not match up with what they told the potential employer.

If they do ask what you are currently making, and you are looking for a sizable raise, I would make sure to play up the increased responsibilities, etc. of the new position and what you have done to improve yourself since obtaining your current job, if you have done anything.

 

[Growth&Courage]

Re: Salary negotiation question

Ok, first off, NEVER give the first number. NEVER.

In an interview, if you are asked about your salary requirements, the answer to give is a variation of the following: "Of course my salary is very important, but I am primarily looking for a position in which I can make a strong contribution to the organization and advance my skill set. I'm sure you have a salary range in mind for this position, What is the salary range that this position pays?"

Ask, then shut up until they tell you.

When they give you the range, let's say they say, "The position pays $50,000 to $70,000."

You would say, "That sounds good, I was looking to make anywhere from $65,000 to $85,000."
In otherwords, you position the low end of your range just below the top end of their range.

Here's some better advice. Get the book "What color is your parachute?" And read it several times. All of the better candidates for the jobs that you are competing against will have read it and so you should have too.

Just to clarify the above for everyone, Big George is using reversal psychology there and to NEVER give away the number first because it is not strategic nor wise to show your cards first. In the end it is very much a psychological game.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Re: Salary negotiation question

ok, when interviewing for a job, at some point (hopefully) the potential employer will ask what salary you are looking for. I see this as a good sign, as they are considering hiring you.

i've been stating my range or specifying the salary i desire, or rather the salary i feel through my research and knowledge of the industry, i deserve.

well, several times now, it's been too high. and so, i don't get the job.

now, i KNOW i am worth what i am asking.

my question is, is it a good idea to instead of stating your salary, to ask them to make an offer first. basically i want to hear what they are offering, and make my decision based on that instead of stating my salary.

what yall think of that?

any other negotiating tips appreciated also.

When you are asked about desired salary, here is what you should do:

(1) Say "Does this imply a job offer?"

This forces the employer to say yes, in which case you have the job, or to say no. If they say yes, negotiations begin in earnest. If they say NO, proceed to step 2.

Step 2: Run like hell and never look back. Never. You do not want to work for a place that looks at a salary as a bracket and tries to fit you in. Employee salaries are an investment, and a well run company will understand that employee work product is the return on that investment.

Thus, an employer that uses salary as a hiring tool is not seeking to invest in its employees properly, and is more concerned with pigeon holing you into a predefined role from which you may or may not emerge. A company that does this (most do) thinks they are streamlining the HR function. What they ARE doing is ensuring they will never get top talent.

So avoid those organizations if you can - it is tough, most are run that way.


But if they say YES...this does constitute a job offer, then you have the salary conversation.

First, as discussed, the salary for the position may be set within a range already. Some companies give managers a lot of discretion there, those are really great to work for and pretty damn rare. So your goal is the be at the top of the range, if there is one.

You do this by telling the interviewer that you understand the significance of the investment that a salary represents to the company, and that while your number might seem somewhat high, it is an excellent investment becuase...

....and now you tell them about the depth of your experience, insights, other industry stuff you know, and how this knowledge and experience will translate to an excellent ROI at your "asking price."


One note: Spellwin's advice is a little bit different than mine. I would ignore the range entirely - yes, you do so at your peril, but, with the approach I sketched out for you, you have already forced them to identify you as their desired candidate and begun your relationship with them having set high expectations. Doing this is a subtle way to set yourself up for later promotions. You got hired by being "expensive but worth it". When you do a good job, you will be viewed as someone who costs money and gets stuff done.

Because of this, the company will want to increase their ROI on you and will move you up the chain faster.

I am so good at this stuff. But I have a lot of employees.

Finally, remember, when they interview you, you are interviewing them.

 

[velvett]

Re: Salary negotiation question

I have 100+ employees. We look at every spend on an employee as an investment, and we measure exactly what we get back. All well run companies do.

Good luck.

Great advice.

It's unfortunate that more companies, specifically small ones, do not share the same buiness practice.

 

[velvett]

Re: Salary negotiation question

Ok, first off, NEVER give the first number. NEVER.

In an interview, if you are asked about your salary requirements, the answer to give is a variation of the following: "Of course my salary is very important, but I am primarily looking for a position in which I can make a strong contribution to the organization and advance my skill set. I'm sure you have a salary range in mind for this position, What is the salary range that this position pays?"

Ask, then shut up until they tell you.

When they give you the range, let's say they say, "The position pays $50,000 to $70,000."

You would say, "That sounds good, I was looking to make anywhere from $65,000 to $85,000."

In otherwords, you position the low end of your range just below the top end of their range.

Here's some better advice. Get the book "What color is your parachute?" And read it several times. All of the better candidates for the jobs that you are competing against will have read it and so you should have too.

Great advice.

Between George and Matt you should be covered.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Re: Salary negotiation question

Great advice.

It's unfortunate that more companies, specifically small ones, do not share the same buiness practice.

This discipline is how we went from small to big...or at least medium.

Most small biz owners, as I am sure you know, are more concerned with maintaining their lifestyle and minimizing their tax liabilities.

It takes real vision see beyond this if you own a small and profitable business.

 

[ZKaudio]

it's a bit more difficult with entry level positions as experience is pretty much how much applicants are selling themselves. I'm stuck in this rut now, trying to explain to managers all the IT stuff I can do in addition to my normal tasks when they have NO idea what I'm talking about...

 

[jerkbox]

here's some more background on my situation

- mostly small companies i am interviewing with - usually from 10-100 employees
- being they are small, i am meeting usually with the owner, or someone at a VP level or just below the owner level

- this would lead me to believe there is some flexibility with salaries, as opposed to a corporate defined salary quota

so, i need to be able to convince these people that I am worth what I am asking...and while i may be overqualified for some of these jobs, I need to either convince these people that they need someone who can do more, or at least convince them that they need to pay someone what I want for the position...

not all of them advertise the positions as leadership positions, but my resume is VERY clearly geared toward just that, and usually they seem to express these needs. it's a strong point for me, and really what i see as being a determining factor for commanding a higher salary. I am getting interviews, but not closing the deal.

i think i need to convince them of my capabilites as a leader, and someone who can initiate change, and manage it. Many of the companies I am interviewing with are in a transition of some sort. I need to present myself as someone who can facilitate that. I really need to sell myself. I know what I am capable of, but I have a hard time selling myself.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

here's some more background on my situation

- mostly small companies i am interviewing with - usually from 10-100 employees
- being they are small, i am meeting usually with the owner, or someone at a VP level or just below the owner level

- this would lead me to believe there is some flexibility with salaries, as opposed to a corporate defined salary quota

Probably. The owner can pay whatever they want.

so, i need to be able to convince these people that I am worth what I am asking...and while i may be overqualified for some of these jobs, I need to either convince these people that they need someone who can do more, or at least convince them that they need to pay someone what I want for the position...

No such thing as overqualified at a well - run business. A smart owner / manager will always have additional things for you to do/learn; someone who understands the investment in employees will find a way to maximize theirs in you.

not all of them advertise the positions as leadership positions, but my resume is VERY clearly geared toward just that, and usually they seem to express these needs. it's a strong point for me, and really what i see as being a determining factor for commanding a higher salary. I am getting interviews, but not closing the deal.

i think i need to convince them of my capabilites as a leader, and someone who can initiate change, and manage it. Many of the companies I am interviewing with are in a transition of some sort. I need to present myself as someone who can facilitate that. I really need to sell myself. I know what I am capable of, but I have a hard time selling myself.

Make sure you listen carefully to what they are saying. I have interviewed a lot of people, and they are often so excited to tell me how great they are that they forget to explain why they meet my needs.

We just hired a COO. When we interviewed him, he was telling us about all these initiatives he had accomplished at his last company, etc etc. We had to stop him and tell him that we don't foresee any major changes, as we are already extremely profitable. We need someone to run operations - just run operations.

We had all the strategic stuff figured out already.

So make sure you are listening as well as talking. Many owners see themselves as the one who sets the culture within an organization, and don't need someone to come in and make a whole lot of change. Companies the size of the ones you were interviewing with rarely need a dynamic leader; the owner will handle that.

Good luck bor.

 

[Razorguns]

Re: Salary negotiation question

I am so good at this stuff. But I have a lot of employees.

In a perfect world it looks great on paper.

If you're in a industry with high unemployment, or you've been searching for a job for awhile -- you may not have the pleasure of such liberties.

There are many corporate structures where everyone at a certain job "level" or "position" has to be around a similar salary range. Politics and drama arise if a Engineer winds up snagging $95k, while another same Engineer is making $85k and his manager is making $100k, $5k more.

Therefore, if they're deadset on offering no more than $85k, and you'd *like* $95k -- you could run yourself out of the ballpark for many a jobs. Leading to possible long long bouts of unemployment. And longer unemployment, leads to lower overall yearly salary when u figure in the length of the non-earning period.

Your guidance works perfectly if you're dealing with unique Talent (actors, sports athletes, multi-national executives, doctors, etc. etc.).

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Re: Salary negotiation question

Your guidance works perfectly if you're dealing with unique Talent (actors, sports athletes, multi-national executives, doctors, etc. etc.).

I do.

and were those salaries monthly numbers or weekly?

 

[Lestat]

good advice on this thread.

The book that George reccomended is excellent and can be picked up used for $1.

 

[Lady Godiva]

For my actual employer i was asked the same question. Instinctively I asked them if this was an offer. Answer was yes. Then I just threw my numbers which were based on "COLA" and similar positions. But if I had to do it again i would probably go with George Spellwin advice because back then, i had nothing to lose and had 2 job offers.