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Refusal To Identify To Law Enforcement

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Under governing New York law, absent reasonable suspicion, an individual has a constitutional right to refuse to respond to questions posed by a police officer, may remain silent, and may even walk away without fearing an arrest or detention by the officer. See People v. DeBour, 40 N.Y.2d 210, 386 N.Y.S.2d 375 (1976). States can provide greater protection of constitutional rights than the Supreme Court decides, but not less.

Regards,

RW

WASHINGTON, Oct. 20 — The Supreme Court said Monday it will consider whether people have a constitutional right to refuse to tell police their names. Justices will review the prosecution of a man under a Nevada law that requires people suspected of wrongdoing to identify themselves to police, or face arrest.

THE ISSUE had split the Nevada Supreme Court, which sided with police on a 4-3 vote last year in a case involving a man who refused 11 times to give his name to officers.

The man was convicted of a misdemeanor charge of resisting arrest, based on his silence. He was fined $250.

The justices will hear arguments next year in the latest in a handful of cases this term that pit law enforcement against a person’s Fourth Amendment protection from unreasonable searches. Justices next month will consider if police can arrest all occupants of a car during a traffic stop in which drugs are found.

In the Nevada case, an attorney for Larry Hiibel argued that he did not believe he had done anything wrong when officers approached his parked truck in Humboldt County in 2000.

He was suspected of drinking and driving and of hitting his daughter. Prosecutors later dropped a misdemeanor domestic battery charge, and he was not charged with drunken driving.

His lawyer, public defender James P. Logan, said in a filing that in some parts of the country “a person under a shadow of suspicion, who has not committed any crime, can be approached by the police, do absolutely nothing, and yet be arrested, convicted and incarcerated.”
“It is inimical to a free society that mere silence can lead to imprisonment,” he wrote.

The identification requirement helps police avoid wrongful arrests, state attorney Conrad Hafen told justices, and it only applies when officers have a reasonable suspicion that there was a crime.

“The public interest in crime prevention and effective police work outweighs Hiibel’s claimed right of privacy,” he wrote.

The Nevada Supreme Court had said the case had implications for the government’s terrorism fight. “We are at war against enemies who operate with concealed identities and the dangers we face as a nation are unparalleled,” wrote Chief Justice Cliff Young.

The case is Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of the state of Nevada, 03-5554.

In other action Monday, the court:

—Canceled arguments scheduled for next month in a separate case involving police rules for searching stopped cars. The court said Arizona courts should reconsider whether drug evidence can be used against Rodney Gant, in light of a recent decision by that state’s high court in a similar case. The case is Arizona v. Gant, 02-1019.

—Rejected the appeal of a Texas death row inmate who was 17 when he killed a man during a robbery. Anti-death penalty groups had urged the court to use Nanon Williams’ case to stop the executions of juvenile defendants. The case is Williams v. Texas, 03-5956.
 
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For the Canadian law experts, can we do the same, i.e. walk away aithout answering anything?

I have seen/herd of people getting busted because they were asked for ID and they didn't have it. So then the police searched them and found illegal substances.
 
Dr. JK said:
For the Canadian law experts, can we do the same, i.e. walk away aithout answering anything?

I have seen/herd of people getting busted because they were asked for ID and they didn't have it. So then the police searched them and found illegal substances.

im wondering the same thing
 
Under governing New York law, absent reasonable suspicion, an individual has a constitutional right to refuse to respond to questions posed by a police officer, may remain silent, and may even walk away without fearing an arrest or detention by the officer.

That would be mere suspicion not reasonable suspicion. Under reasonable suspicion you can be detained. If you refuse to identify yourself you have that right but the office also has the right to detain (in this case it’s basically an arrest but not at that level of probable cause) you until you can be identified and a warrant check has been run.

I was a NYC Police Academy instructor for a while too. For real.
 
I'm not sure I understand your point. The NY Court of Appeals created four levels in DeBour for police encounters: Objective credible reason, founded suspicion, reasonable suspicion and probable cause. Perhaps you're confusing founded suspicion with what you refer to as "mere suspicion." Detaining a person for the purpose of questioning amounts to a seizure of that person. I think we agree that to do so requires reasonable suspicion.

RW
 
There are other cases, one in Wisconsin, and another in Illinois, IIRC, where the refusal to identify was upheld as valid. Nominally, you do not have an obligation to identify yourself to the police. If they are going to arrest you, they MUST have probable cause to do so.

This notion that we should discard this is BULLSHIT - the SAME bullshit we've heard OVER and OVER again on the "war on drugs" and how we needed to give up right after right after right in order that we could "fight this new war" and stop "handcuffing our law enforcement."

We have the fuckin Patriot Act and a goddamned KID told the FBI he was gonna smuggle boxcutters onto planes and then he went and DID IT. I don't feel like I need to give up MY rights. I feel like the freaking IDIOTS who comprise law enforcement need to be fired and replaced with people who are smart, not ex-military grunt asskissers.
 
[email][email protected][/email] said:


That would be mere suspicion not reasonable suspicion. Under reasonable suspicion you can be detained. If you refuse to identify yourself you have that right but the office also has the right to detain (in this case it’s basically an arrest but not at that level of probable cause) you until you can be identified and a warrant check has been run.

I was a NYC Police Academy instructor for a while too. For real.

well bro if they're going to detain you, in other words put you in a car, until they can ID you. Well they have to search you. It's for saftey.
 
FUCK it, everyone just doesn't see it.....Fucking police do whatever the fuck they want, if they violate your rights or whatever, who cares, you are still sitting in jail and you still have to pay out the ass to "maybe" prove the officer was in the wrong, so they win no matter what
 
Guys,

It's simple, you give cops attitude they will "jam" you.
If you just walk away from a cop he could easily detain you on suspision that you look like someone or you toseed a joint or you had white stuff around your nose. If they fins other stuff during their search, your fucked.

That's why I don't believe in giveing them attitude but respectfully stating you rights or in the case of ID simply saying you forgot it at home and he the cop most likely will not want to go through the trouble of deatining you if nothing is wrong.
 
A person walked away from a cop recently in WIS and his arrest was thrown out as invalid. He refused to identify himself or to obey the cop's command to "stop" and was subsequently arrested for some crap like "obstruction of justice." He was with an individual who had urinated in public. Contempt of Cop is all he was guilty of and trigger happy, control freak policemen need to understand that Contempt of Cop is not an actionable crime.

We, as citizens, are under no obligation to obey, cooperate with, nor identify ourselves to law enforcement. If they cannot establish probable cause, then they have no basis upon which to arrest or sieze a person. Stop and frisk is very tenuous, but based upon "reasonable suspicion" and the jurisprudence is very clear that fishing expeditions for evidence are prohibited. It is supposed to be no more than a protective patdown.
 
liftshard said:
A person walked away from a cop recently in WIS and his arrest was thrown out as invalid. He refused to identify himself or to obey the cop's command to "stop" and was subsequently arrested for some crap like "obstruction of justice." He was with an individual who had urinated in public. Contempt of Cop is all he was guilty of and trigger happy, control freak policemen need to understand that Contempt of Cop is not an actionable crime.

We, as citizens, are under no obligation to obey, cooperate with, nor identify ourselves to law enforcement. If they cannot establish probable cause, then they have no basis upon which to arrest or sieze a person. Stop and frisk is very tenuous, but based upon "reasonable suspicion" and the jurisprudence is very clear that fishing expeditions for evidence are prohibited. It is supposed to be no more than a protective patdown.
So, what's to stop them from just lying about it as in Dr. JK's post?

They can say whatever the hell they want and a judge will probably believe them over you. "Well your honor, I saw what looked like a white powder on his upper lip and attempted to stop him on reasonable suspicion of cocain possession." CASE CLOSED; YOU LOSE.

I think it is a wise thing to just be polite and let them frisk you if you have nothing to hide. The last thing you want to do is piss them off by being disrespectful. I personally know people who have had the shit kicked out of them by cops (OMG he must have been "resisting arrest") for what amounted to a traffic stop where the guy was a wise-ass to the cop. I personally have been threatened with being shot by a cop at a traffic stop in Wyoming in the middle of nowhere (no witnesses) because I retrieved my driver's liscense from my wallet before he asked for it. Believe me when I say I was NOTHING but polite to that one.

Of course, if you do have something illegal in your pockets then I would try to be respectful while refusing to let them search.
 
You have to pick your battles, but don't you think that the cop lied in the case I cited? Cops only lie when their mouths are moving, so expect that. I just got jacked up where a bitch cop impounded my car for expired tags. I researched the law and can find no statutory authority on her part to do so for this offense.

Of course, I became verbally abusive toward her, but I made sure that she knew I was an attorney and we were also on a public street. For some cop out in the middle of nowhere, hell, you're on your own. If some cop threatens to shoot you, get the hell out of there. You can ALWAYS plea bargain things away to suspended sentences and some other cop is likely to show up with a vidcam in his car and it'll be caught on tape.

I would never allow a cop to touch me, not to frisk me, not to search my pockets, not to lay a damned finger on me or else they better put me in cuffs and FILE those felony charges that they're threatening me with. Go ahead. The bitch cop threatened me with that the other day and I laughed at her. I know the statute that makes fraudulent modification of registration and whatnot a class 6 felony; she could have NEVER proven her case, the case never makes, not even close. She knew it and I knew it.

I am typically respectful to cops, but they don't deserve my respect. Around here they're nothing but a fking bunch of LEECHES extorting revenue out of the noncriminal citizenry.

And, it is not up to the judge on whom to believe; it's up to the jury. Juries are a WHOLE lot less trusting of cops than other State employees who cash paychecks from the same bank. By and large, cops are bullying thugs and you have to understand where you are and what the scope of their authority is at any given point. I would behave completely differently around DC city cops than around VA cops because DC cops are brutal thugs who will murder and assault people with little provocation and VA has a rule that mandates a summons and release for any misdemeanor offense. In DC, cops can arrest and jail for jaywalking. That gives them a ridiculous amount of power over you. Texas has a similar set of rules and a recent high court case revolved around whether search was valid for an offense which could NOT be punished with incarceration. A woman was arrested for a seatbelt infraction. TX police were empowered to arrest and hold and impound the car, giving them the authority to search every container except for locked boxes in the trunk. The infraction's penalty was SOLELY a fine, as most minor offenses are in most jurisdictions.

You have to know where you are. The PG County police in MD (some of the most brutal in the nation) pulled Chris Webber out of his car and beat and pepper sprayed his ass and he was an allstar player for the NBA Bullets/Wizards at the time. These trigger happy psychos have no regard for the law nor rights.
 
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