Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below Here you are Doofy....Halfway down the page
http://www.theministryoffitness.com/mof/library/articles/article18.htm
http://www.theministryoffitness.com/mof/library/articles/article18.htm
Refeeding and Leptin
- Thread starter barnidge
- Start date
Par Deus,
I am doing great after incorporating refeeds into my program. I am going 3:1, 2:1, 1:1 low carb:refeed day. I have never been so lean- though energy levels are kind of unstable but to me that's a small price to pay. But for you, I would have never had the insight to refeed and would have inevitably kept cutting calories. Thank you.
Question:
I have wondered about this having read you posts for months on numerous boards;
Why are you so committed to spreading the word about refeeds? It's not as though you are selling any supplements that facilitate them. Is it simply benevolence? Regardless, they work.
I am doing great after incorporating refeeds into my program. I am going 3:1, 2:1, 1:1 low carb:refeed day. I have never been so lean- though energy levels are kind of unstable but to me that's a small price to pay. But for you, I would have never had the insight to refeed and would have inevitably kept cutting calories. Thank you.
Question:
I have wondered about this having read you posts for months on numerous boards;
Why are you so committed to spreading the word about refeeds? It's not as though you are selling any supplements that facilitate them. Is it simply benevolence? Regardless, they work.
Par Deus,
Do you find the formula for BMR(maintenance calories) at http://www.theministryoffitness.com/mof/library/articles/article6.htm to be generally accurate?
Do you find the formula for BMR(maintenance calories) at http://www.theministryoffitness.com/mof/library/articles/article6.htm to be generally accurate?
psi said:
No, it is self-interest. Leptin is a huge breakthrough in bodubuilding, and I am one of about 3-5 people who really knows a lot about it, and being thought an "expert" and ahead of the game in something is always good when your company is based on being able to do new and innovative things with bodybuilding science.
Along the same lines, when people ask about refeeds or leptin, my website is where they get sent.
p60 said:
It is intended to do all of the above, though your description of being cold in the extremeties could be a circulation issue.
As for how it works, you cannot totally trick your body, as bodyfat stores still signal leptin, but you can trick it as far as energy balance is concerned because a lot of the carbohydrates consumed with short-term overfeeding will be oxidized, so they stimulate leptin, but do not provide usable energy, so the signal that you are being fed is sent, even though you do not get to use all of the calories.
Personally I would avoid anything with a GI higher than glucose. There is mounting evidence that some ultra high GI foods actually cause a short term decrease in insulin sensitivity, so your blood glucose sky rockets, but the glucose is not getting used effectively. Since impairment of glucose utilization will also impair insulin-stimulated activation of leptin gene expression and leptin secretion, these foods may be a poor choice for refeeds.
For sure, there is a lot more to long term energy balance than just leptin. But unless you have access to means of manipulating your acylation stimulating protein, adipsin, complement factor C3, diacylglycerol acyltransferase, perilipin, adiponectin, acetyl-coenzyme A carboxylase 2, Hmgic, cerulenin, or a host of other in vivo factors which may be involved, I think leptin manipulation via increasing blood glucose levels AND uptake is still the cheapest and most readily accessible method to prevent "hitting the wall" of fat loss. It's not a magic bullet, but it helps.
For sure, there is a lot more to long term energy balance than just leptin. But unless you have access to means of manipulating your acylation stimulating protein, adipsin, complement factor C3, diacylglycerol acyltransferase, perilipin, adiponectin, acetyl-coenzyme A carboxylase 2, Hmgic, cerulenin, or a host of other in vivo factors which may be involved, I think leptin manipulation via increasing blood glucose levels AND uptake is still the cheapest and most readily accessible method to prevent "hitting the wall" of fat loss. It's not a magic bullet, but it helps.
Last edited:
C
Cuts
Guest
bump for PLEASE SOMEBODY DEFINITIVELY AFFIRM THAT REFEEDS ARE O.K.!
Cuts said:
RE - FEEDS ARE OK! Take it from your Uncle Platehead - 6% body fat cutting / 8% bulking, always going through 48 hours of massive cheat days... Now shut the fuck up so I can finish my cookie dough!
youngyoung
New member
how about taking glucotrl xl the day you refeed to make sure insulin is high? or maybe ALA.
C
Cuts
Guest
Bobarell said:
lol no, I read the whole thread and read Par Deus' [long but excellent] articles. I just needed a definitive statement to make me feel better about planning to eat chocolate cake later today. Thanks PlateheadJim, now get back to your cookiedough :O!
You now all of that lowfat/nonfat crap foods that sell like hotcakes to the fat housewives? Entenman's brand comes to mind... Well usually they are considered worthless as far as dieting goes because of the high carb content. Well it seems they now have their place in the world of refeeds 
carbs are only in the form of low gi fruits- grapefruit, strawberries, blueberries (morning only)
and raw vegies - broccolli, tomatoes...all low gi
i also add pysluum husks to salads and protein shakes for added fibre.
carbs creep in w cottage cheese...but nothing major.
havent had a refeed/cheat day in about 3 -4 weeks
and raw vegies - broccolli, tomatoes...all low gi
i also add pysluum husks to salads and protein shakes for added fibre.
carbs creep in w cottage cheese...but nothing major.
havent had a refeed/cheat day in about 3 -4 weeks
Hmm, since you're away from the weights I'd want to ease up on the refeeds, but not completely.
Keep carbs low for 3-4 days, and throw in an afternoon or morning of high-carb meals.
Its all about getting a feeling for what your body needs. Plus it depends on your goals...
3-4 weeks is too long to go without a refeed on your current carb intake, IMO.
Keep carbs low for 3-4 days, and throw in an afternoon or morning of high-carb meals.
Its all about getting a feeling for what your body needs. Plus it depends on your goals...
3-4 weeks is too long to go without a refeed on your current carb intake, IMO.
i've been reading about refeeds and finally printed out and read par's articles. i'm ready to try a refeed tomorrow. i don't think i can bring myself to eat pop tarts or smarties or any crap like that, so what do you think of the following as some carb choices for my refeed day...
-oatmeal with maple syrup
-oatmeal with maltodextrin
-sweet potato with honey and cinnamon
-sushi (because of the white rice and basically no fat)
-wild rice
also, i'm not too clear on the fructose thing. in some places it sounds like its ok, in other places it sounds like i should avoid it, so what do you think of throwing in a banana or some cottage cheese with blueberries?
thx for any suggestions!
-oatmeal with maple syrup
-oatmeal with maltodextrin
-sweet potato with honey and cinnamon
-sushi (because of the white rice and basically no fat)
-wild rice
also, i'm not too clear on the fructose thing. in some places it sounds like its ok, in other places it sounds like i should avoid it, so what do you think of throwing in a banana or some cottage cheese with blueberries?
thx for any suggestions!
JJFigure
New member
I refeed for 12 hours with 6 meals - first three are instant, flavored oatmeal or cream of wheat; last three are regular oats or cream of wheat with 1T. honey or maple syrup. This has worked very well for me - my energy levels go back up, my fat loss continues, and I don't retain a lot of water or get bloated. I usually end up eating 400-500 grams of carb.
I totally avoid protein and fat on my refeed days; I know other people take in protein at 1gram/1lb of lbm, but it's worked well for me to just keep protein out. The added benefit is by the end of the day I'm sick of carbs and ready to go back to protein/fat/low carbs.
I also use the refeed day to help replenish my muscle glycogen stores, which is why I focus on starches w/ simple sugars added to them. Fructose replenishes your liver glycogen stores, but that tops off after 100 grams, so I'd keep fructose limited. I don't think you need to completely avoid it though.
I totally avoid protein and fat on my refeed days; I know other people take in protein at 1gram/1lb of lbm, but it's worked well for me to just keep protein out. The added benefit is by the end of the day I'm sick of carbs and ready to go back to protein/fat/low carbs.
I also use the refeed day to help replenish my muscle glycogen stores, which is why I focus on starches w/ simple sugars added to them. Fructose replenishes your liver glycogen stores, but that tops off after 100 grams, so I'd keep fructose limited. I don't think you need to completely avoid it though.
jj-
wow...nothing but oatmeal and c.o.w. all day?!?!! more power to ya!!! i love my oatmeal, but i would definitely puke if thats the only thing i could consume all day. i can see how it gets the craving out of your system though!
do you stay at or above maintenance cals?
thx!
wow...nothing but oatmeal and c.o.w. all day?!?!! more power to ya!!! i love my oatmeal, but i would definitely puke if thats the only thing i could consume all day. i can see how it gets the craving out of your system though!
do you stay at or above maintenance cals?
thx!
JJFigure
New member
I refeed above mainteinance 20-30%. However, for my first refeed, Par Deus had me refeed for 2 days at 50% above maintenance. That was a lot of c.o.w.! After that, I incorporated refeeds every 3 days at 20-30% above mainteinance (depends on how sick I am of the oats/c.o.w.).
It's pretty amazing though; 2 days after my first refeed I was down 1 lb. in weight and 1/4 inch off my upper thigh (where I store my fat). I was one happy camper!
It's pretty amazing though; 2 days after my first refeed I was down 1 lb. in weight and 1/4 inch off my upper thigh (where I store my fat). I was one happy camper!
BigMackster
New member
I know this is all about refeeding, but could you include ALA or R-ALA in this mix, and if you did would it have any effects on glycogen stores.
Big Mack
Big Mack
DanielBishop
New member
Sorry to be annoying.... I did read the whole thread and the articles too, but it was confusing at times.
Can we have some conclusive answers to these questions, please?
*Higher GI foods are better during refeeds? (the foods on the high GI list in the article_18 are best?)
*It's best to keep fat intake as low as possible during refeeds?
*You should eat the whole day (or two days, depending on how long you're refeeding for) but it might be wise to make the last meal before bed a high GI meal?
*Protein levels should stay normal?
*The leaner you are, the more often you should refeed and vice versa?
Thanks. I'm sorry for asking the same questions that have already been asked a hundred times, but some people are saying Chinese Buffet is okay, some are saying cookie dough is okay and others are saying keep your fat low etc etc.... just some conflicting views.
Can we have some conclusive answers to these questions, please?
*Higher GI foods are better during refeeds? (the foods on the high GI list in the article_18 are best?)
*It's best to keep fat intake as low as possible during refeeds?
*You should eat the whole day (or two days, depending on how long you're refeeding for) but it might be wise to make the last meal before bed a high GI meal?
*Protein levels should stay normal?
*The leaner you are, the more often you should refeed and vice versa?
Thanks. I'm sorry for asking the same questions that have already been asked a hundred times, but some people are saying Chinese Buffet is okay, some are saying cookie dough is okay and others are saying keep your fat low etc etc.... just some conflicting views.
JJFigure said:
congrats...sounds like your getting some awesome results from this!
i'm doing my refeed today...hoping mine goes well too. so far, i'm going to try and stay with protein around 1gram/lb. bodyweight (which is hard for me because i looooove fish, steak, chicken, etc), fat as low as possible, and for carbs i'm using a couple servings of oatmeal with syrup or honey, sweet potato with honey, sushi rice, a banana, a couple english muffins with honey (i don't usually eat these, but i swear they were calling to me when i was in the grocery store last night
)...hope these will go along ok with the plan...anyone have any input?i'm still coming up short on cals, so i figure i'll probably throw in another serving of oatmeal or sweet potato or maybe even rice or pasta at the end of the day. this is actually harder than i thought because i just can't get my head into the mode of eating ff cookies, sugary cereal or pop tarts since these are things that i've avoided for so long (and believe it or not, the thought of eating a pop tart doesn't appeal to me at all...almost makes me ill...weird, huh?).
jjf...just curious...how did you settle on just oatmeal and c.o.w.? did you try some other combos and find they didn't work as well? not criticizing in any sort of way, just curious on the thought process and trying to gain some knowledge.
thx!!!
Last edited:
JJFigure
New member
If I used breakfast cereals to refeed, I would eat the whole box. I can't seem to stop eating with certain food groups. However, I definitely get sick of oats and c.o.w., so it's easier for me to prevent binge behaivor.
I'm on a very low carb diet (no starches) the rest of the time, and I used to eat oatmeal every morning before I started this diet. I actually missed my oatmeal, which is why I started carb loading on oatmeal/c.o.w. I've occassionally used rice, but I really prefer my current plan. Plus, it's easy to log - I have all the calories/macronutrients already worked out. Basically, I'm saying I'm lazy.
I'm on a very low carb diet (no starches) the rest of the time, and I used to eat oatmeal every morning before I started this diet. I actually missed my oatmeal, which is why I started carb loading on oatmeal/c.o.w. I've occassionally used rice, but I really prefer my current plan. Plus, it's easy to log - I have all the calories/macronutrients already worked out. Basically, I'm saying I'm lazy.
HANSEL
New member
Vageta said:You now all of that lowfat/nonfat crap foods that sell like hotcakes to the fat housewives? Entenman's brand comes to mind... Well usually they are considered worthless as far as dieting goes because of the high carb content. Well it seems they now have their place in the world of refeeds
I think its ALL the TRANS Fat in Entenmans that is actually the killer in that crap.
ok...its 2pm on my first refeed and i'm already all sugared out!!! i've eaten enough sugar and honey to make me want to PUKE.
so far for carbs, ive eaten oatmeal w/raspberry maple syrup (this was first thing in the morning so it tasted damn good going down), next was raisin bran english muffin with some honey (still tasted really good as i haven't had one of these in probably over a year), banana (yum), a maple french toast english muffin with honey (still yummy because i love maple flavor), oatmeal with cinnamon and brown sugar...here's where i lost it...i had to literally choke this stuff down...i typically looooooove oatmeal and i'm hoping this didn't ruin it for me.
after that, i had to go get some sushi for a late lunch...i couldn't take eating any more sugar or honey. i have a sweet potato w/honey for my pre-workout snack, but the thought of it is making me ill. i think i need to go find more sushi!!!!
did i overdo it on the sweet stuff? i thought you were supposed to take in high gi/alot of glucose during a refeed??? how the hell do you manage this????
so far for carbs, ive eaten oatmeal w/raspberry maple syrup (this was first thing in the morning so it tasted damn good going down), next was raisin bran english muffin with some honey (still tasted really good as i haven't had one of these in probably over a year), banana (yum), a maple french toast english muffin with honey (still yummy because i love maple flavor), oatmeal with cinnamon and brown sugar...here's where i lost it...i had to literally choke this stuff down...i typically looooooove oatmeal and i'm hoping this didn't ruin it for me.
after that, i had to go get some sushi for a late lunch...i couldn't take eating any more sugar or honey. i have a sweet potato w/honey for my pre-workout snack, but the thought of it is making me ill. i think i need to go find more sushi!!!!
did i overdo it on the sweet stuff? i thought you were supposed to take in high gi/alot of glucose during a refeed??? how the hell do you manage this????
SteelWeaver
New member
DanielBishop said:
1) Yes, high GI is fine, good, better, best, whatever - they spike blood sugar higher, which increases insulin higher, and increases glucose flux through the cells (or something along those lines - I'm not a biologist (yet)) which, I believe, all influence leptin positively. BUT, if you have problems with high GI foods (i.e. they make you binge, they give you a hangover, they make you crave carbs like there's no tomorrow) then low GI is perfectly fine for the refeed, since the glycemic load is so big that you'll get pretty all the same benefits anyway.
I used to get carb hangovers, and just have a really hard time stopping when I was using only high GI, so now what I do is start with high GI - frosted flakes, cocoa pops, marshmallows, fat free cookies if I can get them, toffees, white bread, bagels ... you get the picture. Then as the refeed progresses I drop the GI (basically increase fibre, avoid sugar) - so I'll have super wholegrain bread with baked beans or homemade legume stew, wholewheat pasta with veggies, sweet potato patties made with extra fibrous veggies, etc etc, etc - maybe add in a protein shake near the end.
2) YES, keep fat low. Fat only adds needless calories to the refeed, having no effect on metabolism acceleration or leptin levels/sensitivity. And they slow digestion/absorption of carbs. AND, since you're hypercaloric on this day, there may be a chance that the fat will go straight to fat cells, since the body is busy basking in its favourite fuel, carbs. (Not exactly sure about it - just my guess).
3) If you're trying to go back into ketosis, like if you're on a CKD, then high GI for last meal is fine, it'll drop your blood sugar and you'll get back into ketosis faster. But you might also find carb cravings the next day unbearable. In which case stay low GI with a bit of fat and some protein for the last meal.
4) Normal protein is fine, even a bit lower is cool.
5) Yes. Depends on leanness and length and severity of diet. You can feel your body's systems shutting down - you'll know when it's time to refeed. Not just cravings - a powerful, voracious appetite and like, zero energy, are good signs for me. Also, I start stumbling and tripping and can't pick up my feet, my legs go to lead. When you'd kill for a bowl of plain rice .... refeed.
Chinese buffet, cookie dough, pizza, pie, blah de blah, are not OK. Too much fat. Choose fat free or low fat. If you live in America you can probably buy fat free anything - have a ball.
As for princess and JJ - you girls are crazy! I can eat til I'm popping and still be wanting more. But I hear you on the sugar thing - you start feeling a bit sick after a a while. Here, try these:
a couple of sweet potatoes, shredded
1 potato, shredded
1 zucchini, shredded,
1 carrot, shredded
1/2 an onion, finely chopped
1 egg
2 egg whites
1/2 tspn sage
salt & pepper
dash of nutmeg
1/4 cup wwh flour
Mix everything together, divide in two, make a big pattie out of half the mixture in a pan with Pam, cook over medium heat for 8-10 minutes. Slide onto a plate, respray pan, flip big pattie to cook other side for, also 8-10 mins. Repeat with other half of mixture. Serve warm with ff cottage cheese or ff sour cream or ... I'm thinking ketchup, since I can't get cc or sc. Very yummy.
Big Mack - ALA or r-ALA are great on refeeds - go for it. I've tried up to 2 or 3 g rs ALA on a full-day refeed, and it made a huge difference in my water retention, and I seem to be able to go for longer without feeling like death after the refeed with ALA. I haven't tried r-ALA yet, but tons of people are freaking over the pumps they get after refeeding with it, so ... only way you'll know is if you try
Last edited:
DanielBishop
New member
Thank you!! That cleared everything up....
.... so now I just wait until I KNOW I need a refeed. I hope it comes sooner rather than later.
.... so now I just wait until I KNOW I need a refeed. I hope it comes sooner rather than later.
ok...refeed day is over. by the end of the day, i can't even tell you how bad i was craving a chicken breast with some broccoli and a sprinkle of olive oil...never thought i'd be saying that! yes, it certainly does make you appreciate your protein!
steel-
that recipe sounds so delish...i'll be giving that a try
.
jjf-
i saw on another thread that you're doing a show this saturday. good luck girl!!!
steel-
that recipe sounds so delish...i'll be giving that a try
.jjf-
i saw on another thread that you're doing a show this saturday. good luck girl!!!
DanielBishop
New member
I'm the complete opposite. I haven't done an official refeed yet, but occasionally I have cheat days where I just let loose on the carbs for the whole day.... which made me realise that my body instinctively forces me to do a refeed anyway, even before I knew the benefits of it. Neato.
Anyway, I'd be writhing around on the floor in absolute agony, feeling like I'm doing to permeate my stomach and about 4 loaves of bread and 3 boxes of cereal would come oozing out onto the carpet. But as full and bloated as I am, and as much pain as I'm in, I'm still trying to get to my feet so I can find something else to eat.... it's quite strange. Chicken or beef or fish is the last thing on my mind.
Porter Cortell used to tell of the same thing.... after a contest he'd go absolutely crazy with the high-calorie food, to the point where he was almost about to burst and was in a lot of pain but still looking for more food. One time he got disqualified because he wasn't on stage to collect his 2nd place medal.... immediately after his posing, he went straight out to his car and was stuffing his face and missed the crowning ceremony. Poor guy.... all that work gone to waste.
Ah well.... when I do refeed, I'm gunna try to take it easy. Have lots of regular meals, but not stuff myself to breaking point each time. I'll try to get some protein in as well, since I usually completely neglect it when I'm binging.
Anyway, I'd be writhing around on the floor in absolute agony, feeling like I'm doing to permeate my stomach and about 4 loaves of bread and 3 boxes of cereal would come oozing out onto the carpet. But as full and bloated as I am, and as much pain as I'm in, I'm still trying to get to my feet so I can find something else to eat.... it's quite strange. Chicken or beef or fish is the last thing on my mind.
Porter Cortell used to tell of the same thing.... after a contest he'd go absolutely crazy with the high-calorie food, to the point where he was almost about to burst and was in a lot of pain but still looking for more food. One time he got disqualified because he wasn't on stage to collect his 2nd place medal.... immediately after his posing, he went straight out to his car and was stuffing his face and missed the crowning ceremony. Poor guy.... all that work gone to waste.
Ah well.... when I do refeed, I'm gunna try to take it easy. Have lots of regular meals, but not stuff myself to breaking point each time. I'll try to get some protein in as well, since I usually completely neglect it when I'm binging.
Kid Dynamite
New member
I'd never heard that about Porter. Interesting, the things dieting does to the brain chemicals, making you want to eat like that. I've had similar experiences.
Similar threads
