Questions about 5x5 workout:

[Studdg]

As a preface, I'm currently in week 6 of the workout, so I'm speaking from some experience:

-I feel like my first 2 and sometimes 3 sets appear too easy. On those, I could probably crank out another rep. Shouldn't I train harder on those sets by using more weight or adding reps?

-Even on days when I bump up the weight, I feel more exhausted (especially on Wednesdays) than I do muscle fatigued. That is to say I feel worn out, but it isn't like I can barely walk, or like I can barely lift my arms.

-Does the 5x5 undertrain the upper body? It seems to me that the upper back and chest only get 15 total reps each per week while the legs get 20 reps.

-Is there a lack of variety in the exercises? With bench, I've historically worked my chest with flies, incline, decline and flat press. With this program, it is just flat bench.

-These exercises aren't all that conducive to really pushing yourself with the weight if you don't have a spotter (except for bench when you use dumbells).

Overall, I like the functionality of the workout, but I just wish my muscles felt like they were shredded more when I walked out. It isn't that I don't push myself, but doing 5x5 at a high weight just doesn't cause as much burn to me like doing 12 or 13 sets of different exercises at maximum weight and reps each time.

 

[Madcow2]

My answers are in bold

As a preface, I'm currently in week 6 of the workout, so I'm speaking from some experience:

First, I have no idea what program you are using based on a few of the below but I will assume you are using one of mine maybe

-I feel like my first 2 and sometimes 3 sets appear too easy. On those, I could probably crank out another rep. Shouldn't I train harder on those sets by using more weight or adding reps?

No, because the idea is you are pushing to get them all. If you overly fatigue on the early sets it will hurt your efforts to get all 5 sets or the heaviest weight on your top set

-Even on days when I bump up the weight, I feel more exhausted (especially on Wednesdays) than I do muscle fatigued. That is to say I feel worn out, but it isn't like I can barely walk, or like I can barely lift my arms.

-Does the 5x5 undertrain the upper body? It seems to me that the upper back and chest only get 15 total reps each per week while the legs get 20 reps.

This is what throws me - bench is 5x5 - that's 25 reps. 2x per week is 50 reps and if you count military or incline that's 75 reps. Squats are 75 reps and back is 75 reps of rows/pullups and another 25 of deads. If you are doing anything for 5x5 that's 25 reps courtesy of basic math.

-Is there a lack of variety in the exercises? With bench, I've historically worked my chest with flies, incline, decline and flat press. With this program, it is just flat bench.

Results are seldom boring - don't shotgun exercises at bodyparts in hopes of getting better. Work hard at a select group that really matters to make sure you get better.

-These exercises aren't all that conducive to really pushing yourself with the weight if you don't have a spotter (except for bench when you use dumbells).

What is really pushing? If you need someone to watch you, ask them. Otherwise, do what you are comfortable with. Nothing special happens at the muscular level during failure. It is neural. You don't need to push every last ounce to see very good results. That said, it's nice to have one for those really hard sets at times. I've gone years without training partners as have others. You can deal.

Overall, I like the functionality of the workout, but I just wish my muscles felt like they were shredded more when I walked out. It isn't that I don't push myself, but doing 5x5 at a high weight just doesn't cause as much burn to me like doing 12 or 13 sets of different exercises at maximum weight and reps each time. Shred has nothing to do with progress. If you are getting stronger at the big lifts and your weights are going up, eat enough cals for growth and don't sweat it, you will get big and strong

 

[Studdg]

Thanks for the reply. I ask a lot of questions only because I want to better understand everything, not because I'm trying to argue.

I had reps and sets confused on my last set of questions. Sorry about that. I made that post while tired, and managed to write something almost indecipherable.

-Would you mind explaining why failure isn't necessarily the goal? As a guy with a lot of experience in running based sports, I just figured that training as hard as possible (the more it hurts, the better) + variety in the way you attack the muscle + adequate rest = optimal results.

-Another thing that I've been noticing is that I appear to be getting better results in my arms. With my arms (Bis Monday, Tris Friday), I'm using the approach of going to fatigue on all of my 6 sets (2 different exercises). I assume that part of this is due to the fact that arms are prominently used on everything other than squats, but still I wonder if the 5x5 is the best approach for me. That being said, I'm reserving judgment until the program is completed.

-You state that finding a great exercise for a muscle group and sticking with it is the key to success. My instinct would be that doing the same exercise would only repeatedly work the same section of a muscle. Adding variety would seem to work more sections of the muscle, allowing more fiber damage, and hence better results. This is assuming that you aren't switching to obscure exercises that work small sections of a muscle.

 

[Madcow2]

Thanks for the reply. I ask a lot of questions only because I want to better understand everything, not because I'm trying to argue.

I had reps and sets confused on my last set of questions. Sorry about that. I made that post while tired, and managed to write something almost indecipherable.

1.-Would you mind explaining why failure isn't necessarily the goal? As a guy with a lot of experience in running based sports, I just figured that training as hard as possible (the more it hurts, the better) + variety in the way you attack the muscle + adequate rest = optimal results.

2. -Another thing that I've been noticing is that I appear to be getting better results in my arms. With my arms (Bis Monday, Tris Friday), I'm using the approach of going to fatigue on all of my 6 sets (2 different exercises). I assume that part of this is due to the fact that arms are prominently used on everything other than squats, but still I wonder if the 5x5 is the best approach for me. That being said, I'm reserving judgment until the program is completed.

3.-You state that finding a great exercise for a muscle group and sticking with it is the key to success. My instinct would be that doing the same exercise would only repeatedly work the same section of a muscle. Adding variety would seem to work more sections of the muscle, allowing more fiber damage, and hence better results. This is assuming that you aren't switching to obscure exercises that work small sections of a muscle.

So first, the TOC on my thread will get updated soon. For the meantime I have all the updated links here. Give the essential topics a read in there especially the long training theory one at the top of that section: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm

1. Failure is CNS not muscular related. No magic going on at the muscle level. CNS inhibition makes large inroads into the body's ability to perform the exercise i.e. a good example might be those few extra reps on the early sets performed consistently will greatly inhibit your ability to handle heavier weights and higher workload.
Here is a better understanding: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5088668&postcount=783

If you want A LOT more - this post contains a collection of links on the subject by many notable names. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7437203&postcount=2 Being a runner you might pay a visit to the forums at www.charliefrancis.com - you will find the same info there with regards to weight training.

If you make it through all of this and aren't convinced I don't know what to tell you. It's okay to fail but not to train specifically for failure all the time.

2. Bottom line, when your bench, dead, squat, and row increase substantially on say your best set of 5 or 5x5 or whatever (as long as it's not pure neural training) and reasonably balanced caloric excess has been in place to allow for consistent hypertrophy (which means as you grow more and more calories will be needed) - you will be bigger. Strength and hypertrophy are highly correlated over the mid to long term (short term can be erratic just due to the body and fatigue). Every person who has put on a lot of size has increased in strength - hypertrophy is part of the mechanism for the body to adapt increased force/strength requirements. The big lifts are simply the most stimulative and provide the best correlations and efficiency (i.e. lots of guys improve on some machine press and don't get bigger).

3. So after reading the first link in #1 you probably realize that you don't work part of a muscle or some of the fibers. It is very easy to get full fiber recruitment during a lift - things like rate coding and synchronization also come into play but all fibers have been recruited. So, you don't work different parts of a single muscle. Anyway, in #2 we discussed why you'd focus specifically on the big lifts - the body is a system, the best lifts treat it as such recruiting larger proportions of the body's overall musculature through a fundemental range of motion. The reason why you'd stick with these lifts - for a period, is simple. To optimally improve at them. When the body adapts it doesn't think about each muscle getting worked and then growing each one. The body is adapting it's neural efficiency as well as it's musculature to accomodate a given activity (neural and hypertrophy factors can work synergistically to increase capacity). If you feed the body all kinds of activity in a shotgun link array, it won't get particularly good at any of them. This is also why frequency and workload are high in these lifts - you expose the body to them as much as possible without being overcome by fatigue or in the case of a periodized program, actively managing fatigue.

We want to get good at exercises that we know recruit and contribute the most to overall musculature. These lifts are tracked over time to make sure they move in the right direction. That way, even if you phase out a core lift for a time when you come back to it you can quickly guage how well your substitute lift actually carried over and whether it increased strength base fundementally or you just spun your wheels getting better at the Hammer Iso Lateral Anal Squeeze and your squat is no stronger for all that work (after a few weeks of re-acclimation to the squat you should have seen measurable increase in your capacity if it did carry over well).

Conclusion - so whether this particular program works for you or not, I don't know. It might just not be how some people like to train. Maybe some people need more or less volume - this program can be easily adjusted either way. Might just be fate. Might be diet - in that table of contents there is a single diet post that is very very basic, don't screw that up. Regardless though - the above will apply regardless of what 'routine' or 'program' you utilize. If you increase capacity in the lifts that matter in a viable hypertrophy range and supply caloric excess, you will get bigger right in line with them. Any program not based on this has issues. Science, theory, and programing comes into the training to best optimally increase capacity for a given lifter but the is the same.