Question on the 5x5 program 4x6 routine ?

[SirDingo]

Ok after much research it seems to be proven the 5x5 program is the best way to add muscle mass to my 5'10" 165lb body. What about instead of doing 5sets of 5reps for times sake I do 4sets of 6reps each, would that give me the same gains ?

Another question, lets say I am benching 150lbs max right now, would that mean all 4sets of 6reps should be with 150lbs then the next week make it 155lbs, and second week 160lbs and so on ? Meaning should I so the same weight for every set, and just add weight to the bar like once a week or some type of routine ?

Thank's

 

[BiggT]

I'll let you in on a little secret. Bill Starr and Tommy Suggs developed that program both through personal experience and also a little influence from Doug Hepburn's training, they felt, optimally, it was 4-6 sets of 4-6 reps, but 5x5 was a neat, idiot-proof way to package it to high school kids. So.....go for it. It's just progression in a range of reps that isn't neural and that isn't cardio. It should work for 99% of people 99% of the time, provided they don't go and fuck it up.

If your max is 150, you can't be doing 5's with it, lol....check out the training vault and Madcow's website for the specifics.

 

[Cynical Simian]

check out the training vault and Madcow's website for the specifics.

+1

If your "research" didn't include reading that site, especially the program descriptions and advice on selecting a program, take a look at it ASAP. From your other thread, I gather that you're pretty new to lifting, so 5 sets of 5 with heavy weight is overkill: you don't need that much of a stimulus to make progress. Just do the linear version of the 5x5 that has you ramping up to one top set and adding weight once per week.

 

[Kabeetz]

I was reading that Daniel Craig got ready for Casino Royale by doing a 3x5 program, maybe you should try that before the 5x5.

 

[BiggT]

I was reading that Daniel Craig got ready for Casino Royale by doing a 3x5 program, maybe you should try that before the 5x5.

But he was ripped in Casino Royale, I thought 3x5 was for fat football players who only care about strength and not mass and cuts?????????????

 

[Kabeetz]

But he was ripped in Casino Royale, I thought 3x5 was for fat football players who only care about strength and not mass and cuts?????????????

fat, BALD football players!!!

 

[Cynical Simian]

How can the 3x5 be a football program if it doesn't include cable work for functional strength?

 

[SirDingo]

I'll let you in on a little secret. Bill Starr and Tommy Suggs developed that program both through personal experience and also a little influence from Doug Hepburn's training, they felt, optimally, it was 4-6 sets of 4-6 reps, but 5x5 was a neat, idiot-proof way to package it to high school kids. So.....go for it. It's just progression in a range of reps that isn't neural and that isn't cardio. It should work for 99% of people 99% of the time, provided they don't go and fuck it up.

If your max is 150, you can't be doing 5's with it, lol....check out the training vault and Madcow's website for the specifics.

So I need to start out my first three sets of reps with light weight, then the fianl fifth set is the heaviest maxing out on the final rep, not being able to go 6 ?

But why do the first four sets of light weight then of only 5reps, why not a heavier weight for all the sets, then just add like 2.5lbs every week to your workout ?

So like 4sets of benching 150lbs 6reps each, then week two it will be 155lbs and continue increasing every week, would I not gain on that routine ?

 

[Cynical Simian]

I heard Daniel Craig read madcow's site in preparation for getting jacked for Casino Royale.

 

[SirDingo]

+1

If your "research" didn't include reading that site, especially the program descriptions and advice on selecting a program, take a look at it ASAP. From your other thread, I gather that you're pretty new to lifting, so 5 sets of 5 with heavy weight is overkill: you don't need that much of a stimulus to make progress. Just do the linear version of the 5x5 that has you ramping up to one top set and adding weight once per week.

Thank's for the advice, thing I have a question on is the early sets for your first set of 5reps seems so low and weak, like I am not getting anything out of it, it is just too easy, and I understand I need to ramp up each set for my 5th being the toughest to even just get to five reps, but doing the first two sets with such small weight seems pointless, why not have it heavier in the first three reps, and then the final two being the ball busters ?

 

[Guinness5.0]

You'll stall out in a couple weeks if you have multiple heavy sets. It's fine that the ramp sets are light. They'll get you warmed up thouroughly and will serve as form practice.

The idea with this program is to string together months of consistent progress. The program will get much tougher as you get your 5rm climbing. The idea is not to pulverize yourself at each workout but rather to get good and strong on the big lifts. There will come a time when multiple worksets will be in order, but that time is not now. Use this time when you are capable of making weekly progress wisely; you won't be able to do so forever. That's when it gets complicated

 

[SirDingo]

I am even more confused now with the 5x5 routine, quoting this page here;
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381

Clarifying Examples:

5x5 and 3x3 are straight sets with working set weight:
i.e. 315x5, 315x5, 315x5, 315x5, 315x5 in the case of 5x5 and 315x3, 315x3, 315x3 in the case of 3x3

1x5 and 1x3 are ramped sets of 5x5 and 3x3 respectively with the weights increasing set to set over fairly even intervals:
i.e. 225x5, 255x5, 275x5, 295x5, 315x5 in the case of 1x5 and 275x3, 295x3, 315x3 in the case of 1x3



So should I do like 5sets of 5reps of150lbs for my benchm, then the next week up the weight just a little bit like 5lbs, and again the following ??

 

[Cynical Simian]

If you'd read that program description in its entirety, you would have come across this rather relevant section:

New or Novice Lifters:
A dual factor program is unnecessary. This is more work than you need and slower progression. Why add weight once every 4-8 weeks if you can string together new personal records for weeks at a time back to back. I really recommend Rippetoe's Starting Strength for beginners or novices. It's so critical to learn the lifts correctly and get started on a good program (i.e. not what one typically finds on bodybuilding sites).

 

[Guinness5.0]

It's confusing becasue there are two main 5x5's described on the website. You'll want to focus on the intermediate version before the advanced. If you're really new to the gym, or are coming back form a layoff, or have been using a program that does not mainly involve squats/rows/deads/bench, then you may be better served by the Rippetoe 3x5.

It would be futile for me to try to explain the programs better than has been done by madcow at his site. You would be best served by spending some serious time reading there. Once you understand which program is appropriate for you, you'll feel fine about starting light and stringing together those long periods of sustained, incremental progress.

What has your recent training looked like? Have you been in the gym for a long time, and (more importantnly) have you made significant progress on the big lifts? If not I would tend to suggest Rippetoe's; if you have already added some serious pounds to your squat (and I mean your full squat, not to parallel but as deep as yoru flexibilty allows) and other big lifts, you may be a condidate for the intermdiate 5x5. But I can almost definitley say that you don't need the advanced version.

Key point: advanced is not better unless you NEED it; the idea is to make the most rapid progress possible. THe further you go, the harder it becomes to simply add a little weight at each session, so concessions in the form of complications such as periodization become necessities.

Buy Starting Strength for $30 to learn the lifts properly, then apply the proper program. Remember, the guy who pups away and gets sore but doesn't improve his lifts much will not make the gains that a guy who improves his big lifts significantly as the weeks and months go by.

 

[SirDingo]

If you'd read that program description in its entirety, you would have come across this rather relevant section:

I was thinking of doing my 150lbs one week with 5sets of 5reps each for that, and every week add weight but just a little like 5lbs a week ?

It seems to say that here ? So 5x5 is 5 sets of 5 reps with working set weight (warm up to the target weight for the week and proceed through 5x5 with that weight).

 

[Cynical Simian]

Do whatever the hell you want. But don't bitch when you stall rapidly because you're doing more volume than necessary and making jumps that are too large as a proportion of your poundages.

 

[SirDingo]

Maybe I should be doing the Riptoe 3x5, because I am mainly looking to add bulk to my body, looking for bigger muscles faster, I am already a lean/toned guy from Mountain Biking, Snowboarding, and million pushups I do, but now I want to bulk up instead

so maybe this 3x5 routine would be better suited for me ? Also does the 3x5 program mean it is really heavy weight each exercise, like not being able to even push out a 6th rep, and all three sets are the same weight ? Would this also hold for a 4x6 routine ?

Thank's

 

[Guinness5.0]

Read the description please. If you have specific questions after that I'd be happy to help, but it's clear you haven't read it yet.

And seriously, buy Starting Strength (it's written by Rippetoe and he sescribes the program there too). I had been lifting for over ten years before that book and I found it to be useful beyond description.

 

[SirDingo]

Read the description please. If you have specific questions after that I'd be happy to help, but it's clear you haven't read it yet.

And seriously, buy Starting Strength (it's written by Rippetoe and he sescribes the program there too). I had been lifting for over ten years before that book and I found it to be useful beyond description.

Thank's again for the help I appreciate it......so for me looking to bulk up add muscle is the 3x5 routine better for me than the 5x5 ?

 

[Guinness5.0]

Here's a quote from kethnaab's writeup over at BB.com (which is linked in the 'new to training?' sticky above):

You should be working quite hard by the last set of each exercise, but ALL exercises are done with perfect technique (look in the Exercise section of the Table of Contents)

So at first you'll probably be limited by your form. Err to the side of 'light' and by the time it gets to be challenging you'll have the form nailed. The idea is to add a LITTLE (like maybe 10 pounds/week on squats/deads and 5 on the rest) at a time for a LONG time. THis results in faster progress than hammering away and stalling quickly. So at first it'll be kinda light but in only a few short weeks it'll be 60 pounds heavier. Eventually you would need microplates and you'd add very small amounts to the bar, but again, that's after making huge progress at first.

To me it sounds like 3x5 would be better. BUY STARTING STRENGTH!

 

[SirDingo]

Here's a quote from kethnaab's writeup over at BB.com (which is linked in the 'new to training?' sticky above):

So at first you'll probably be limited by your form. Err to the side of 'light' and by the time it gets to be challenging you'll have the form nailed. The idea is to add a LITTLE (like maybe 10 pounds/week on squats/deads and 5 on the rest) at a time for a LONG time. THis results in faster progress than hammering away and stalling quickly. So at first it'll be kinda light but in only a few short weeks it'll be 60 pounds heavier. Eventually you would need microplates and you'd add very small amounts to the bar, but again, that's after making huge progress at first.

To me it sounds like 3x5 would be better. BUY STARTING STRENGTH!

and after reading the 3x5 routine that is for an example 3sets of 5reps each of 150lbs for my bench, then the next week move to 155lbs of again 3sets of 5reps ? But I should be making it pretty dang heavy for each exercise like not being able to handle a 6th rep ?

 

[Guinness5.0]

Start at a weight that you can do 3x5 PERFECTLY. It may be a little light -- that' OK and actually preferable. Add 5 pound next time. Then 5 pounds after that. Don't worry about what it feels like -- just set a baseline that you can perform with poicture perfect form and add 5 pounds a week. It will be very challenging in no time.

I'll say it again becasue you keep asking: start a little light and get the reps PERFECT, then add weight in 5 pound increments each session for all the sets. If you can struggle and strain 150 up for 3x5, it's too much. Leave your ego behind, get 'em perfect, and allow yourself to progress for months. That's reallythe key. If you start too heavy you'll cut your progress short.

 

[SirDingo]

Start at a weight that you can do 3x5 PERFECTLY. It may be a little light -- that' OK and actually preferable. Add 5 pound next time. Then 5 pounds after that. Don't worry about what it feels like -- just set a baseline that you can perform with poicture perfect form and add 5 pounds a week. It will be very challenging in no time.

I'll say it again becasue you keep asking: start a little light and get the reps PERFECT, then add weight in 5 pound increments each session for all the sets. If you can struggle and strain 150 up for 3x5, it's too much. Leave your ego behind, get 'em perfect, and allow yourself to progress for months. That's reallythe key. If you start too heavy you'll cut your progress short.

I have to say thank's again, I feel like an idiot with all these dumb questions

So the difference with the 3x5 program is that the 3x5 = same heavy weight lifted 3sets of 5reps ? Where as the 5x5 routine is ramped up 5sets, the first couple sets is low, and and gets heavier each set, where the fifth set is ball busting ?

Out of these two programs it would seem the 5x5 would get me much bigger faster than the 3x5 ? Or what about a crazy 4x6 my buddy does ? He does like 3x6 the same weight and the last set is heaviest

 

[Kabeetz]

DO THE 3x5 EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, ONLY PLUGGING IN WEIGHTS THAT YOU ARE COMPLETELY CAPABLE OF WITH EASE FIRST WORKOUT.

Then once u stall in weeks or months, then switch to the intermediate 5x5. Whatever program gets you more progress sooner is the one that is right for you..and right now that is the 3x5.

 

[SirDingo]

DO THE 3x5 EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, ONLY PLUGGING IN WEIGHTS THAT YOU ARE COMPLETELY CAPABLE OF WITH EASE FIRST WORKOUT.

Then once u stall in weeks or months, then switch to the intermediate 5x5. Whatever program gets you more progress sooner is the one that is right for you..and right now that is the 3x5.

Thank ya, so the 3x5 for example in my bench will be three sets of 150lbs 5reps each set, then the next week up that weight 5% or so ? So all my exercises with the 3x5 program will need to be pretty heavy weight to gain right ? Not being able to push a 6th rep ?
And keep doing that every week, for how long until I switch to the 5x5 ?

My whole point in getting back into weight lifting is to pack on some muscle to my 5'10" 165lb body by Summer, right now I am just low body fat and toned from biking, but I am really planning to get bigger somehow

 

[SirDingo]

But the 3x5 program seems like it is NOT enough sets/reps to build me up, at least the 5x5 is a total of 25reps for one exercise, or a 4x6 program using the same weight only increasing it once per week ?

Ideas please

 

[Guinness5.0]

Ideas please

Either take our advice or don't. Whatever you do, do it for a while before you decide whether it works or not.

You've been given more than enough help to get started. So go start and see what happens. You aren't going to learn anything by being spoonfed in this thread.

 

[Jayhawk21]

Start at a weight that you can do 3x5 PERFECTLY. It may be a little light -- that' OK and actually preferable. Add 5 pound next time. Then 5 pounds after that. Don't worry about what it feels like -- just set a baseline that you can perform with poicture perfect form and add 5 pounds a week. It will be very challenging in no time.

I'll say it again becasue you keep asking: start a little light and get the reps PERFECT, then add weight in 5 pound increments each session for all the sets. If you can struggle and strain 150 up for 3x5, it's too much. Leave your ego behind, get 'em perfect, and allow yourself to progress for months. That's reallythe key. If you start too heavy you'll cut your progress short.

This worked for me the first time I tried the 5x5, and I gained some mass and strength, but I really feel that was mainly because I stopped eating like a girl. I tried 5x5 the next time and it was pretty disasterous. I started light like everybody says for the first 4 weeks or so. By the time the 4 weeks was up of lighter training I was significantly less strong, and a little thinner than before. When I started trying to hit PR and such, it took me a long time just to get back to where I was. And from squatting 3 times a week, my joints were about shot. I never substituted anything, and followed the Madcow site to a T. I didn't worry about isolation and adding extra curl exercises. I don't know what the deal was. I really felt like I was overtaining in the squat though. 3 times a week was way to much for me. I know that you aren't supposed change anything for squats in the 5x5, but is there anyway to substitute something? I'm not talking about taking squats out, just not squatting 3 days a week.

I know you are all going to eat me up for this, say I did it wrong, but it really didn't work very well the second time around.

 

[Guinness5.0]

I know you are all going to eat me up for this, say I did it wrong, but it really didn't work very well the second time around.

What did you between runs? What caused you to stop the first run? Did you stall, reset and then experience problems, or did you switch to something else and then run 5x5 again? Intermediate or advanced?

I can only speak for myself, but I can squat heavy quite frequently and not experience any discomfort whatsoever (aside from my lower back, which I attribute to old injuries, and which does not get worse from squatting). It could be a form issue.

Keep in mind that the 'optimality' of any program is going to be determined by your personal situation. A cookie-cutter program is never truly ideal, but can serve as an excellent learning tool to build on and learn from. It is entirely possible that you now requre a different approach to training to get the desired results. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater; you may just want to try a higher rep range or something along those lines.

However, the fact that you are experiencing pain makes me think that there are other factors at play here.