question for the religious people

[p0ink]

ok, i need some help understanding this.

so if God is omniscient, he knows everything we would do in life before we do them, correct? (without getting into an argument here of free will versus determinism, lets say God knows which choices we will make before we are even born)

so, if God knows which choices we would make in life, then he would know whether or not a person would receive salvation, correct? and accorcing to the Bible, everyone is capable of being savd, correct?

so, since God is omniscient, wouldn't he know whether or not someone would be saved before they were born?

well, if God knew they would not be saved, but yet created them anyways, would he essentially be eternally damning that person, without even giving them a chance at salvation?

i'm not arguing whether or not that would somehow be for a greater good, i'm just seeing if God would intentionally set someone up for damnation.

If so, would those who were to be damned, before they were even born, have a soul?

i'm not trying to trap anyone here...i am just asking questions and floating ideas.

 

[beefcake28]

ok, i need some help understanding this.

so if God is omniscient, he knows everything we would do in life before we do them, correct? (without getting into an argument here of free will versus determinism, lets say God knows which choices we will make before we are even born)

so, if God knows which choices we would make in life, then he would know whether or not a person would receive salvation, correct? and accorcing to the Bible, everyone is capable of being savd, correct?

so, since God is omniscient, wouldn't he know whether or not someone would be saved before they were born?

well, if God knew they would not be saved, but yet created them anyways, would he essentially be eternally damning that person, without even giving them a chance at salvation?

i'm not arguing whether or not that would somehow be for a greater good, i'm just seeing if God would intentionally set someone up for damnation.

If so, would those who were to be damned, before they were even born, have a soul?

i'm not trying to trap anyone here...i am just asking questions and floating ideas.

Even if God does know who will or won't recieve salvation, to interfere with the process would go against our free will. God is consistant in that He won't take that away from us, regardless of the consequences. He is not intentionally setting anyone up for damnation, but instead allows our free will to remain intact, even though he may already know the outcome. That way, you still have your entire life to make that choice, and have nobody to blame if you don't choose salvation. If your free will was taken away, that would not be the case, and damning someone without free will would be unjustified.

 

[p0ink]

Even if God does know who will or won't recieve salvation, to interfere with the process would go against our free will. God is consistant in that He won't take that away from us, regardless of the consequences. He is not intentionally setting anyone up for damnation, but instead allows our free will to remain intact, even though he may already know the outcome.

how can there be free will if God, who created the world (not planet earth...but the reality in which we live) and created us, knew what we would do before we were even born.

you can't know a falsehood.

 

[Dry Muscle]

ok, i need some help understanding this.

so if God is omniscient, he knows everything we would do in life before we do them, correct? (without getting into an argument here of free will versus determinism, lets say God knows which choices we will make before we are even born)

so, if God knows which choices we would make in life, then he would know whether or not a person would receive salvation, correct? and accorcing to the Bible, everyone is capable of being savd, correct?

so, since God is omniscient, wouldn't he know whether or not someone would be saved before they were born?

well, if God knew they would not be saved, but yet created them anyways, would he essentially be eternally damning that person, without even giving them a chance at salvation?

i'm not arguing whether or not that would somehow be for a greater good, i'm just seeing if God would intentionally set someone up for damnation.

If so, would those who were to be damned, before they were even born, have a soul?

i'm not trying to trap anyone here...i am just asking questions and floating ideas.

To be omniscient is to know all things..but when that's been mentioned by disciples to Jesus, the embodiment of God, it doesn't necessarily mean that absolutely ALL things are known, which would include future thoughts and actions.

Something to perhaps not take so literally.

"It's interesting to contemplate a god who knows all of the future--very future act by man, his every future thought. Such a man would have absolutely no free will, and is therefore would not responsible for any of his actions, and everything he does is ultimately done by God, who must have predestined every event and every thought. It is not hard to imagine that the writers believed that that God might have wanted man to have limited free will, and therefore did not predestine everything in everyone's lives, and therefore did not know everything man would do, or think, and therefore was not "omniscient" by our modern-day definition of the word."

 

[beefcake28]

how can there be free will if God, who created the world (not planet earth...but the reality in which we live) and created us, knew what we would do before we were even born.

you can't know a falsehood.

Just because He knows what you will do doesn't mean you don't still have a choice.

 

[Lestat]

good questions p0ink, ive often wondered it myself.

 

[biteme]

WHen you're dead, you're dead. Snakes, dogs, cats, cattle, etc. do not go to a pie in the sky and neither does the human animal. That's my rational opinion.

 

[p0ink]

To be omniscient is to know all things..but when that's been mentioned by disciples to Jesus, the embodiment of God, it doesn't necessarily mean that absolutely ALL things are known, which would include future thoughts and actions. [/B]

then that is a lesser being, and not God, who created us, because God, by definition is perfect and omniscient. therefore, he (God) would have the ability to know these things.

stop thinking of God as an old muscular man with a beard; that is not what we are talking about.

 

[p0ink]

Just because He knows what you will do doesn't mean you don't still have a choice.

lets say you are really, really hungry. you love steak, and that is what you are craving more than anything.

well, say i set out a big table of food; chicken, shrimp, catfish, french fries, catfish, ice cream, etc, but i being the jokester that i am, i have all of the food, except for steak made out of plastic.

you go right for the steak, and all you eat is steak. did you really have any free will in making your decision?

 

[beefcake28]

then that is a lesser being, and not God, who created us, because God, by definition is perfect and omniscient. therefore, he (God) would have the ability to know these things.

stop thinking of God as an old muscular man with a beard; that is not what we are talking about.

C.S. Lewis, in his book Mere Christianity, covers these types of questions in detail... If you have not read it, it will help you understand things of this nature. It isn't a long book, but is well regarded as a masterpiece of apologetics.

 

[beefcake28]

lets say you are really, really hungry. you love steak, and that is what you are craving more than anything.

well, say i set out a big table of food; chicken, shrimp, catfish, french fries, catfish, ice cream, etc, but i being the jokester that i am, i have all of the food, except for steak made out of plastic.

you go right for the steak, and all you eat is steak. did you really have any free will in making your decision?

Just because I crave one thing, does not mean I did not have a choice. Ask anyone who is dieting. They may crave a bucket of ice cream, but in their better judgement, opt for something better suited to their goals.

 

[p0ink]

Just because I crave one thing, does not mean I did not have a choice. Ask anyone who is dieting. They may crave a bucket of ice cream, but in their better judgement, opt for something better suited to their goals.

but you did not have a choice, if every other option was not viable.

 

[biteme]

C.S. Lewis, in his book Mere Christianity, covers these types of questions in detail... If you have not read it, it will help you understand things of this nature. It isn't a long book, but is well regarded as a masterpiece of apologetics.

CS Lewis is a joke. Christians use him for everything, because he was a former athiest who now supposedly believes in God. As if that makes God real, because a former athiest changed his mind. It's the other way around far more often.

 

[Dry Muscle]

then that is a lesser being, and not God, who created us, because God, by definition is perfect and omniscient. therefore, he (God) would have the ability to know these things.

stop thinking of God as an old muscular man with a beard; that is not what we are talking about.

I'm not exactly sure which God you are speaking about, but my Bible which teaches about my God doesn't necessarily teach that God is omniscient, which does not negate his greatness or make him a lesser being.

Thanks for the advice, but I'm confident on how to regard my God, being quite comfortable with my faith and knowledge thereof.

 

[chef_bone]

Jesus is dead....

 

[Lestat]

Jesus is dead....

agreed

 

[biteme]

Mohammed is a pussy.

I take that back. The extremist muslims will come looking for me. Dumbshits.

 

[p0ink]

I'm not exactly sure which God you are speaking about, but my Bible which teaches about my God doesn't necessarily teach that God is omniscient, which does not negate his greatness or make him a lesser being.

Thanks for the advice, but I'm confident on how to regard my God, being quite comfortable with my faith and knowledge thereof.

does not the Bible say God is perfect? in order for something to be perfect, it must lack nothing, including omniscience.

 

[Dry Muscle]

does not the Bible say God is perfect? in order for something to be perfect, it must lack nothing, including omniscience.

The Bible also states that pigs are unclean, and I sometimes eat bacon but do not consider myself unclean. You cannot translate literally from then to now, otherwise we would be stoning every person who did not rest on the Sabbath.

Define "perfect". There is much controversy surrounding many terms in the Bible and what they could literally mean. Therefore, it has not been determined that God has the power to know ALL things, which would not predestine man to damnation.

If anyone is interested in extracting anything from the Bible, it should be the idea that although God may not be "omniscient" or "perfect" by our modern day definitions, he is more perfect and far greater than you or I.

 

[beefcake28]

but you did not have a choice, if every other option was not viable.

This is not an easy topic at all. Those who think it is usually take one of two extreme views and then focus on the verses that support it while ignoring the ones that do not. In this case, you have on one side individuals who lean toward God's Sovereign Choice (the view popularly know as "Calvinism") and those who lean toward Man's Free Will (the view often called "Arminianism").

Extreme Calvinists insist that people have no free choice at all and therefore God must essentially make their decision to follow Him for them. The Arminian sees God's sovereignty as being bound by people's free choice - that He just figures out what the future holds and chooses based on that. So keep in mind that depending on who you ask you may get very different responses to your observation then you will get here, for I take a third position that I believe better fits all Biblical data.

Free Will
The Bible clearly portrays man as having a free will. Many verses clearly call for a response from man (Rom. 6:23; Mt. 23:37; Jn. 1:12; Deut. 30:19; Josh 24:15), and these responses are predicated on man's ability to choose to respond. These verses would be asking the impossible if man were not free to choose.

Sovereign Choice
The Bible also portrays God as sovereign, in complete control of all creation (Job 42:2; Ps. 135:6; Dan 4:17; Eph. 1:4-11; Acts 2:23; etc.). So He cannot be "tied down" to what man decides to do, for He is in control. Further, to say that God "looks at the future" and bases His choosing on our actions places God in a position of dependence - but an unchanging cause cannot be affected by its effects (i.e. - us), so this is not possible.

The question naturally arises: "How can God be in control of all events if man can choose his own actions?" This question is at the heart of what you are asking. Again, while it would be easier to punt to either extreme ("God's choice forces man's will," or, "God's choice is dependent on man's will") the Biblical answer must lie somewhere in between. This is where we really need to put our thinking caps on.

Several key concepts (will, nature, causes) are necessary to understand this. I am a visual learner, so let me start with a few illustrations:

The Painting

Imagine yourself in front of a blank canvas. In your mind is a picture that you are about to create. You know everything there is to know about this picture even though it does not yet exist outside your mind on the canvas. You are the primary cause of what that painting will be, and you know it perfectly because for the painting "in your mind" to become the painting on the canvas it must exist according to what is in your mind - for that is its nature.

Well, what about people? One of the essential elements in man's nature is his will, his ability to choose. So if God is going to create people, they will have to be created according to their nature - i.e. free creatures with the ability to choose. As the Ultimate Cause, God knows all of His effects perfectly - including our free choices. If one person by nature (free choice) chooses to follow God and one does not, then God would already know that before they were created. His choosing is determinative for He cannot be wrong.

OK remember that for a minute and read the next illustration:

The Hammer

Suppose I had a hammer that I used to drive nails. If I drove a nail into a board and someone asked you, "What caused that nail to be driven into that board?" you would probably answer that I was the cause. Now, on another level you realize that the hammer had something to do with it of course, but I get the credit ultimately because I was the agent with the free choice - I only used the hammer as an instrument to drive the nail. In philosophy we call this an "instrumental cause."

But suppose the hammer had free will. Suppose it could choose whether or not it would allow itself to hit the nail by bending in some way that would miss it. This complicates things! Now the hammer is not just an instrument, it is more of a secondary cause (me being primary). In other words, without me the hammer could never hit the nail, but I did not force the hammer to hit the nail - I only empowered it. Now if someone asked for the cause, you'd have to include both me and the hammer. Ultimately, though, the hammer gets the credit - for I only supplied its ability to hit the nail, not its choice to do so.

Follow so far? OK - here goes:

Before creation God had all things in His mind. He knew all there was to know about every single thing in His mind - rocks, trees, air, planets, animals, triangles, and . . . man. Now, if God created a triangle it had to be a three sided geometric figure because that is what it is by nature. In the same way, if God created people He had to make creatures with free will, for that is what people are by nature (that is not all that they are, but it is an essential element).

So God knew what their free will would be used for and He chose that it would be so (Acts 13:48). He is the primary cause of all our actions - but we are the secondary causes and are therefore accountable for what we do even though it is God who gave us the ability to choose (and even knew exactly what we would choose when he created us). So God chooses His elect (those that freely chose to follow Him), and He did this choosing before time began (which is why we say He "foreknew" and "predestined" etc.).

God's choosing (primary cause) through our free will (secondary cause) is therefore not a contradiction. We are, as Norm Geisler says, Chosen but Free.

 

[beefcake28]

CS Lewis is a joke. Christians use him for everything, because he was a former athiest who now supposedly believes in God. As if that makes God real, because a former athiest changed his mind. It's the other way around far more often.

Refute any of his apologetics with sound, rational logic and I may acutally consider giving this statment an ounce of credibility.

Until then, I'll just chalk it up to another display of your biased bitterness towards the God who didn't 'follow your timeline'.

 

[coldblue1955]

ok, i need some help understanding this.

so if God is omniscient, he knows everything we would do in life before we do them, correct? (without getting into an argument here of free will versus determinism, lets say God knows which choices we will make before we are even born)

so, if God knows which choices we would make in life, then he would know whether or not a person would receive salvation, correct? and accorcing to the Bible, everyone is capable of being savd, correct?

so, since God is omniscient, wouldn't he know whether or not someone would be saved before they were born?

well, if God knew they would not be saved, but yet created them anyways, would he essentially be eternally damning that person, without even giving them a chance at salvation?

i'm not arguing whether or not that would somehow be for a greater good, i'm just seeing if God would intentionally set someone up for damnation.

If so, would those who were to be damned, before they were even born, have a soul?

i'm not trying to trap anyone here...i am just asking questions and floating ideas.

God only chooses what he wants to know. God doesn't look into every single person's life to see the future.

 

[beefcake28]

God only chooses what he wants to know. God doesn't look into every single person's life to see the future.

Sorry, but this isn't true.

Matthew 10:24-33

24 ‘A disciple is not above the teacher, nor a slave above the master; 25it is enough for the disciple to be like the teacher, and the slave like the master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household!

26 ‘So have no fear of them; for nothing is covered up that will not be uncovered, and nothing secret that will not become known. 27What I say to you in the dark, tell in the light; and what you hear whispered, proclaim from the housetops. 28Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.* 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground unperceived by your Father. 30And even the hairs of your head are all counted. 31So do not be afraid; you are of more value than many sparrows.

32 ‘Everyone therefore who acknowledges me before others, I also will acknowledge before my Father in heaven; 33but whoever denies me before others, I also will deny before my Father in heaven.

 

[p0ink]

The Bible also states that pigs are unclean, and I sometimes eat bacon but do not consider myself unclean. You cannot translate literally from then to now, otherwise we would be stoning every person who did not rest on the Sabbath.

Define "perfect". There is much controversy surrounding many terms in the Bible and what they could literally mean. Therefore, it has not been determined that God has the power to know ALL things, which would not predestine man to damnation.

If anyone is interested in extracting anything from the Bible, it should be the idea that although God may not be "omniscient" or "perfect" by our modern day definitions, he is more perfect and far greater than you or I.

then you are simply picking and choosing what you believe, which is against biblical teachings.

perfect is most simply defined as 'lacking nothing'

God refers to the being greater than which can be conceived. so if your idea of God is somehow lacking something, then you are not talking about God, but you are, instead, talking about a god.

 

[SwolK]

ok, i need some help understanding this.

so if God is omniscient, he knows everything we would do in life before we do them, correct? (without getting into an argument here of free will versus determinism, lets say God knows which choices we will make before we are even born)

so, if God knows which choices we would make in life, then he would know whether or not a person would receive salvation, correct? and accorcing to the Bible, everyone is capable of being savd, correct?

so, since God is omniscient, wouldn't he know whether or not someone would be saved before they were born?

well, if God knew they would not be saved, but yet created them anyways, would he essentially be eternally damning that person, without even giving them a chance at salvation?

i'm not arguing whether or not that would somehow be for a greater good, i'm just seeing if God would intentionally set someone up for damnation.

If so, would those who were to be damned, before they were even born, have a soul?

i'm not trying to trap anyone here...i am just asking questions and floating ideas.

The best answer I can give is that there ARE many things that we can not understand or rationalize...b/c we are imperfect, sinning humans.

When we get to Heaven, and are made perfect again(as originally intended) we will understand things that we previously could not understand.

Currently we simply do not have the capacity to understand some things. For example, I can not wrap my mind around the concept up forever. i dont understand how God has always been, and how we can live eternally. This is something that I accept that I will not be able to understand until I get to Heaven.

wow, first post in C and C

 

[SwolK]

The Bible also states that pigs are unclean, and I sometimes eat bacon but do not consider myself unclean. You cannot translate literally from then to now, otherwise we would be stoning every person who did not rest on the Sabbath.

Define "perfect". There is much controversy surrounding many terms in the Bible and what they could literally mean. Therefore, it has not been determined that God has the power to know ALL things, which would not predestine man to damnation.

If anyone is interested in extracting anything from the Bible, it should be the idea that although God may not be "omniscient" or "perfect" by our modern day definitions, he is more perfect and far greater than you or I.

I disagree. I believe that we should still take many things literally. God said pigs are unclean...so I dont eat pork. why would this have changed?

Also, I agree that we should not stone people, but the Bible is very clear that we should rest on the Sabbith. that is what it was made for, and it has not changed...

 

[biteme]

Refute any of his apologetics with sound, rational logic and I may acutally consider giving this statment an ounce of credibility.

Until then, I'll just chalk it up to another display of your biased bitterness towards the God who didn't 'follow your timeline'.

Fair enough. I've read some of his stuff, although long ago and can't remember. Christians rarely put up a good argument. Especially here. I blame it on Satan!!!

 

[Dry Muscle]

I disagree. I believe that we should still take many things literally. God said pigs are unclean...so I dont eat pork. why would this have changed?

Also, I agree that we should not stone people, but the Bible is very clear that we should rest on the Sabbith. that is what it was made for, and it has not changed...

You're right. What must I have been thinking? I should try to follow the Bible more literally, and apply it to my every day life. Perhaps you could help me with the following considering you're such a devout follower?

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They
claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for
her?

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of
mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you
clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill
him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homoexuality. I
don't agree. Abomination is abomination! Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or do I have some leeway here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around
their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How
should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I just wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread cotton/polyester blend. He also tends to curse
and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble
of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

Thank you again for reminding me that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

 

[beefcake28]

Fair enough. I've read some of his stuff, although long ago and can't remember. Christians rarely put up a good argument. Especially here. I blame it on Satan!!!

Sadly, I agree completely about Christians rarely putting up a good arguement.

 

[SwolK]

You're right. What must I have been thinking? I should try to follow the Bible more literally, and apply it to my every day life. Perhaps you could help me with the following considering you're such a devout follower?

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They
claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for
her?

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of
mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you
clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill
him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homoexuality. I
don't agree. Abomination is abomination! Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or do I have some leeway here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around
their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How
should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I just wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread cotton/polyester blend. He also tends to curse
and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble
of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

Thank you again for reminding me that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Whats with the hostility? i was by no means trying to flame you.

Of course you have valid examples. There are some things as you mentioned, that should not be applied to todays standards. I am just saying that there are some things, such as rest on the Sabbith, that I do not believe to have changed.

 

[Dry Muscle]

Whats with the hostility? i was by no means trying to flame you.

Of course you have valid examples. There are some things as you mentioned, that should not be applied to todays standards. I am just saying that there are some things, such as rest on the Sabbith, that I do not believe to have changed.

I was being truthfully sarcastic, not hostile. And yet you can see that to follow the Bible literally would not really be possible.

Does that mean I don't love God, or try my best to become a better person? Absolutely not. I try to follow many premises of my faith, fail many times to do what I should, don't pray as much as I should and always reflecting that I should serve my faith better, and know that I'm really here on this earth to try to do for others who cannot do for themselves. I hope to be able to set a humble example for my kids, but I know that I have ways to go yet.

 

[SwolK]

I was being truthfully sarcastic, not hostile. And yet you can see that to follow the Bible literally would not really be possible.

Does that mean I don't love God, or try my best to become a better person? Absolutely not. I try to follow many premises of my faith, fail many times to do what I should, don't pray as much as I should and always reflecting that I should serve my faith better, and know that I'm really here on this earth to try to do for others who cannot do for themselves. I hope to be able to set a humble example for my kids, but I know that I have ways to go yet.

agreed.
Trust me, i sin and fail every day. but thats because we are imperfect. what is important is that even though i fail, i try again every day to live a better life for God. There are tons of things i should do more and better. for example i know i should witness to others more. What is important to me is that I strive my best every day and ask for forgivness when i fail/sin (which is every day)

 

[Dry Muscle]

agreed.
Trust me, i sin and fail every day. but thats because we are imperfect. what is important is that even though i fail, i try again every day to live a better life for God. There are tons of things i should do more and better. for example i know i should witness to others more. What is important to me is that I strive my best every day and ask for forgivness when i fail/sin (which is every day)

Yes..well said

And aren't you glad you don't have to burn a bull and tee off your neighbours every so often?

Cheers!

 

[Recruit]

To those that don't believe in God, if by some chance you're right, then I'm okay. But, if I'm right you will spend eternity in hell.

 

[foreigngirl]

To those that don't believe in God, if by some chance you're right, then I'm okay. But, if I'm right you will spend eternity in hell.

than I truly feel sorry for the budhist people

 

[Recruit]

than I truly feel sorry for the budhist people

Me to. Where is their religion found in the Bible?

 

[JayC9]

All the gods are guilty in the first degree of inaction.

If 'God' is all powerful then he holds at any moment the power to set things straight (to iron out the creases in the design, to tweak and tune his creation to perfect working order) but instead decides to sit back and watch an inevitable series of events including pain, sickness, suffering, disease, the machinations and horrors of war, to watch them slowly destroy the beautiful home they were given and fill it with filth?

Why would you choose to even associate with someone like that never mind devote your whole life to them?

 

[Recruit]

All the gods are guilty in the first degree of inaction.

If 'God' is all powerful then he holds at any moment the power to set things straight (to iron out the creases in the design, to tweak and tune his creation to perfect working order) but instead decides to sit back and watch an inevitable series of events including pain, sickness, suffering, disease, the machinations and horrors of war, to watch them slowly destroy the beautiful home they were given and fill it with filth?

Why would you choose to even associate with someone like that never mind devote your whole life to them?

God has the power to limit himself when he chooses to do so.

 

[foreigngirl]

Me to. Where is their religion found in the Bible?

I hope you are not fuckin serious about this shit that if anyone doesnt believe in the BIble will go to eternal hell

 

[Recruit]

I hope you are not fuckin serious about this shit that if anyone doesnt believe in the BIble will go to eternal hell

I only believe what the Bible says.

 

[foreigngirl]

I only believe what the Bible says.

Ok...keep moving then....I'll pretend that I never talked to you

 

[UA_Iron]

To those that don't believe in God, if by some chance you're right, then I'm okay. But, if I'm right you will spend eternity in hell.

even if you are right, you better hope you were practicing the correct religion.

and if you are wrong you've wasted an entire lifetime believing in lies.

 

[Recruit]

even if you are right, you better hope you were practicing the correct religion.

and if you are wrong you've wasted an entire lifetime believing in lies.

I read the King James version, I do not take anyones word for it. The Bible says to study to study to show yourself approved.

 

[foreigngirl]

lol.....

 

[Recruit]

No response,huh?

 

[Behemoth]

whassup recruit...where you been....

 

[UA_Iron]

No response,huh?

I hope in the time you spend studying that you pick up some information regarding logic.

 

[Recruit]

I hope in the time you spend studying that you pick up some information regarding logic.

Any reasoning I pick up also comes from the Bible.

 

[foreigngirl]

Any reasoning I pick up also comes from the Bible.

like....uhmmm.......that we should sacrifice a lamb so God dives us enough rain for the crops this year? lol

 

[JayC9]

God has the power to limit himself when he chooses to do so.

Meaning? Reason?

 

[Recruit]

like....uhmmm.......that we should sacrifice a lamb so God dives us enough rain for the crops this year? lol

Old Testament...

 

[foreigngirl]

Old Testament...

yeah, no shit its the old testament. You missed the point

 

[Recruit]

Meaning? Reason?

God would rather you choose to live for him, than to be made to do so. He will sometimes send a warning our way, but usually it does little good. Untill you read the Bible for yourself, please do not tell me what you believe. How can you give your opinion on a book if you have not read it.

 

[SwolK]

All the gods are guilty in the first degree of inaction.

If 'God' is all powerful then he holds at any moment the power to set things straight (to iron out the creases in the design, to tweak and tune his creation to perfect working order) but instead decides to sit back and watch an inevitable series of events including pain, sickness, suffering, disease, the machinations and horrors of war, to watch them slowly destroy the beautiful home they were given and fill it with filth?

Why would you choose to even associate with someone like that never mind devote your whole life to them?

that is all a consequence of sin committed by humans. it was not the original plan.

God has revealed a plan to restore his perfect world.
Therefore God sent his perfect Son Jesus to die for us.

if we accept Him as our Savior, we will go to Heaven. While there He will rebuild this earth back to its original state before sin occured.

 

[fivefold]

I personally just hate it when people try to put God in a box. We can NEVER rationalize and analyze God. Our REALITY, dimensions, time itself was all invented by God and we can not even begin to fathom anything beyond our reality... Just MO

 

[foreigngirl]

nonsense of wisdom from the Bible, I hope you are not taking these as reasoning:

Judges Chapter 4

But Jael, Heber's wife, picked up a tent peg and a hammer and went quietly to him while he lay fast asleep, exhausted. She drove the peg through his temple into the ground, and he died.
Genesis Chapter 19
Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."
Genesis Chapter 38
Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the Lord 's sight; so he put him to death also.
Judges Chapter 3
Ehud then approached him [the fat king] while he was sitting alone in the upper room of his summer palace and said, "I have a message from God for you." As the king rose from his seat, Ehud reached with his left hand, drew the sword from his right thigh and plunged it into the king's belly. Even the handle sank in after the blade, which came out his back. Ehud did not pull the sword out, and the fat closed in over it. Then Ehud went out to the porch; he shut the doors of the upper room behind him and locked them.
Judges Chapter 19
But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.
When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, "Get up; let's go." But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.

When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel. Everyone who saw it said, "Such a thing has never been seen or done, not since the day the Israelites came up out of Egypt. Think about it! Consider it! Tell us what to do!"

Joshua Chapter 10
When they had brought these kings to Joshua, he summoned all the men of Israel and said to the army commanders who had come with him, "Come here and put your feet on the necks of these kings." So they came forward and placed their feet on their necks.
Joshua said to them, "Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged. Be strong and courageous. This is what the Lord will do to all the enemies you are going to fight." Then Joshua struck and killed the kings and hung them on five trees, and they were left hanging on the trees until evening.

1 Samuel Chapter 31
Saul said to his armor-bearer, "Draw your sword and run me through, or these uncircumcised fellows will come and run me through and abuse me." But his armor-bearer was terrified and would not do it; so Saul took his own sword and fell on it. When the armor-bearer saw that Saul was dead, he too fell on his sword and died with him.

Numbers Chapter 31
Moses was angry with the officers of the army-the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds-who returned from the battle. "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the Lord in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the Lord 's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

Deuteronomy Chapter 25
If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

Whoa foreigngirl, way to quote the old testament long after Jesus lived and fulfilled the prophecies and laws of the old testament. Are you going to start quoting levitican laws next? I'll save you the trouble, we're not levite priests and most of us arent orthodox Jews, so the outrageous laws in the old testament arent even applicable in AD society.

 

[foreigngirl]

Whoa foreigngirl, way to quote the old testament long after Jesus lived and fulfilled the prophecies and laws of the old testament. Are you going to start quoting levitican laws next? I'll save you the trouble, we're not levite priests and most of us arent orthodox Jews, so the outrageous laws in the old testament arent even applicable in AD society.

thats my point too. Why believe word by word from the Bible, its not aplicable right now and the Old Testament is jewish only anyways. The Jews didnt want any other nations in their religions, so why the fuck should I read the OT when it doesnt make any sense and has contradictions?

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

thats my point too. Why believe word by word from the Bible, its not aplicable right now and the Old Testament is jewish only anyways. The Jews didnt want any other nations in their religions, so why the fuck should I read the OT when it doesnt make any sense and has contradictions?

The old testament is applicable, but not levitican laws or similar jewish laws. I dont know what contradictions you're speaking of(I really don't).

 

[foreigngirl]

The old testament is applicable, but not levitican laws or similar jewish laws. I dont know what contradictions you're speaking of.

I know I was reading of some. I am too lazy now to search. But I'll do it tomorrow

 

[bdog527]

Perhaps God knows the results of whatever choice we might make but at the moment we make them does not know how we will choose. That is the essence of our free will.

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

Perhaps God knows the results of whatever choice we might make but at the moment we make them does not know how we will choose. That is the essence of our free will.

yo dude!

 

[Recruit]

nonsense of wisdom from the Bible, I hope you are not taking these as reasoning:

Judges Chapter 4

But Jael, Heber's wife, picked up a tent peg and a hammer and went quietly to him while he lay fast asleep, exhausted. She drove the peg through his temple into the ground, and he died.
Genesis Chapter 19
Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."
Genesis Chapter 38
Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the Lord 's sight; so he put him to death also.
Judges Chapter 3
Ehud then approached him [the fat king] while he was sitting alone in the upper room of his summer palace and said, "I have a message from God for you." As the king rose from his seat, Ehud reached with his left hand, drew the sword from his right thigh and plunged it into the king's belly. Even the handle sank in after the blade, which came out his back. Ehud did not pull the sword out, and the fat closed in over it. Then Ehud went out to the porch; he shut the doors of the upper room behind him and locked them.
Judges Chapter 19
But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.
When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, "Get up; let's go." But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.

When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel. Everyone who saw it said, "Such a thing has never been seen or done, not since the day the Israelites came up out of Egypt. Think about it! Consider it! Tell us what to do!"

Joshua Chapter 10
When they had brought these kings to Joshua, he summoned all the men of Israel and said to the army commanders who had come with him, "Come here and put your feet on the necks of these kings." So they came forward and placed their feet on their necks.
Joshua said to them, "Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged. Be strong and courageous. This is what the Lord will do to all the enemies you are going to fight." Then Joshua struck and killed the kings and hung them on five trees, and they were left hanging on the trees until evening.

1 Samuel Chapter 31
Saul said to his armor-bearer, "Draw your sword and run me through, or these uncircumcised fellows will come and run me through and abuse me." But his armor-bearer was terrified and would not do it; so Saul took his own sword and fell on it. When the armor-bearer saw that Saul was dead, he too fell on his sword and died with him.

Numbers Chapter 31
Moses was angry with the officers of the army-the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds-who returned from the battle. "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the Lord in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the Lord 's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

Deuteronomy Chapter 25
If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.[/QUO
Gods grace didn't begin untill He died at Calvary for your and my sins.

 

[bdog527]

yo dude!

Whats up homey.

 

[foreigngirl]

The old testament is applicable, but not levitican laws or similar jewish laws. I dont know what contradictions you're speaking of(I really don't).

ok..here:

God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26
God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19


Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark - Gen 7:2-3
Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19


God promises Abraham the land of Canaan to live in - Gen 17:8
God did not allow Abraham to live in the promised land - Acts 7:5, Heb 11:8,9,13


Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 70 - Gen 46:26-27, Ex 1:5
Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 75 - Acts 7:14
Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13
Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16


One of the disciples was lost - John 17:12
None of the disciple were lost - John 18:9


No one has ascended into heaven before Jesus - John 3:13
Elijah ascended into heaven - 2 Kings 2:11


Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows - Luke 22:34, John 12:38
Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows twice - Mark 14:30, 14:72


All will swear to God - Isa 45:22-23
Jesus forbids swearing - Matt 5:34


God wants everyone to be saved - 1 Tim 2:3-4, 2 Pet 3:9
God does not want everyone to be saved - Prov 16:4, Mark 4:11-12, Rom 9:18, 2 Thess 2:11




more?

 

[Recruit]

Repent and be baptised everyone of you in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and yea shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[JayC9]

God would rather you choose to live for him, than to be made to do so. He will sometimes send a warning our way, but usually it does little good. Untill you read the Bible for yourself, please do not tell me what you believe. How can you give your opinion on a book if you have not read it.

Interesting you assume I haven't read the bible? Where have I offered my opinion on the bible?

You're not addressing the question; you're giving me a programmed response typical of someone with limited reasoning. Let me reiterate and define it better for your benefit. The question is quite simple; is it wrong to procrastinate when you have the power to help or rectify a situation now?

For example, if you saw somebody in distress and that person will die if you don't come to their aid, is it wrong to do nothing or delay action?

Before you start poring forth dribble that you have a limp grasp on yourself please sit back and look through the window at all the other trailers parked around you, read the words you are typing and ask yourself, do I really believe all this religious bullshit?

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

Repent and be baptised everyone of you in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and yea shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost.

There are people all over my town who sit on the side of the road and blab about Acts 2:38 all day. Every one of them is loud, obnoxious, and offensive, intolerant, and their lines of thinking and arguing are antiquated at best. they are a group of people from a holy pentecostal church.

 

[beefcake28]

ok..here:

God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26
God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19


Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark - Gen 7:2-3
Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19


God promises Abraham the land of Canaan to live in - Gen 17:8
God did not allow Abraham to live in the promised land - Acts 7:5, Heb 11:8,9,13


Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 70 - Gen 46:26-27, Ex 1:5
Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 75 - Acts 7:14
Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13
Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16


One of the disciples was lost - John 17:12
None of the disciple were lost - John 18:9


No one has ascended into heaven before Jesus - John 3:13
Elijah ascended into heaven - 2 Kings 2:11


Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows - Luke 22:34, John 12:38
Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows twice - Mark 14:30, 14:72


All will swear to God - Isa 45:22-23
Jesus forbids swearing - Matt 5:34


God wants everyone to be saved - 1 Tim 2:3-4, 2 Pet 3:9
God does not want everyone to be saved - Prov 16:4, Mark 4:11-12, Rom 9:18, 2 Thess 2:11




more?

I already covered some of these in detail in another thread... I'll try and find it.

Edit: Here it is: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5313333&postcount=27

 

[p0ink]

To those that don't believe in God, if by some chance you're right, then I'm okay. But, if I'm right you will spend eternity in hell.

pascal's wager

 

[UA_Iron]

pascal's wager

which I refuted in my post.

 

[UA_Iron]

As the monotheistic deity becomes more and more sophisticated, She or He becomes less and less accessible to the common people. Ultimately, the god becomes unfathomable. To theists, this merely adds to the deity's greatness. "God is so much higher than we are, that we could not hope to understand his ways with our finite minds." Such talk prompts atheists to suspect that the theists are making this stuff up.

Hindus point to a passage in the Upanishads that says that God is "Not this, not this -- beyond all that is cognizable" and "From which, along with the mind, words turn back." [31] One would think that there is very little literature about such a god, but that is not the case. Rather than stopping at "I feel the presence of something and I choose to call it 'God,'" theologians proceed to write volume after volume of material describing all they know about what they ultimately admit is unknowable and indescribable.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/faq/faq1112.htm#2i.

 

[SwolK]

I personally just hate it when people try to put God in a box. We can NEVER rationalize and analyze God. Our REALITY, dimensions, time itself was all invented by God and we can not even begin to fathom anything beyond our reality... Just MO

well put

 

[SwolK]

ok..here:

God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26
God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19


Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark - Gen 7:2-3
Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19


God promises Abraham the land of Canaan to live in - Gen 17:8
God did not allow Abraham to live in the promised land - Acts 7:5, Heb 11:8,9,13


Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 70 - Gen 46:26-27, Ex 1:5
Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 75 - Acts 7:14
Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13
Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16


One of the disciples was lost - John 17:12
None of the disciple were lost - John 18:9


No one has ascended into heaven before Jesus - John 3:13
Elijah ascended into heaven - 2 Kings 2:11


Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows - Luke 22:34, John 12:38
Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows twice - Mark 14:30, 14:72


All will swear to God - Isa 45:22-23
Jesus forbids swearing - Matt 5:34


God wants everyone to be saved - 1 Tim 2:3-4, 2 Pet 3:9
God does not want everyone to be saved - Prov 16:4, Mark 4:11-12, Rom 9:18, 2 Thess 2:11




more?

For me the bottom line is, there are things in the old test that are still applicable today. for example. Sabbith Rest (which is the Seventh Day) and the Ten Commandments. There are many others...

Although you do have valid points

 

[Recruit]

Interesting you assume I haven't read the bible? Where have I offered my opinion on the bible?

You're not addressing the question; you're giving me a programmed response typical of someone with limited reasoning. Let me reiterate and define it better for your benefit. The question is quite simple; is it wrong to procrastinate when you have the power to help or rectify a situation now?

For example, if you saw somebody in distress and that person will die if you don't come to their aid, is it wrong to do nothing or delay action?

Before you start poring forth dribble that you have a limp grasp on yourself please sit back and look through the window at all the other trailers parked around you, read the words you are typing and ask yourself, do I really believe all this religious bullshit?

He has the power to control, but He chooses to let us make our own decisions. Is this plain enough for you. How do you believe the world was created and where man came from?

 

[foreigngirl]

He has the power to control, but He chooses to let us make our own decisions. Is this plain enough for you. How do you believe the world was created and where man came from?

I think you should visit us at the Body, Mind and Spirit board on EF so you can join all Bible Thumpers

 

[cranny]

He has the power to control, but He chooses to let us make our own decisions. Is this plain enough for you. How do you believe the world was created and where man came from?

Ever heard of evolution? To me it makes more sense than going on blind faith of something I was told as a child to not question. You just believe this or you'll burn in hell forever. WTF? It amazes me how all religions have a common belief. Their religion is THE one to follow. All others are wrong and you will pay dearly for choosing otherwise. Don't dare decide for yourself. You are taught from an early age whatever your parents follow, that is yours to follow as well. No questions. I was brought up as a southern babtist. I've tried to follow it but it dosen't fit. The older I get I find I'm more of a spiritual person, not religious. I can get more out of Tao teachings than anything else I've experienced.

 

[p0ink]

Ever heard of evolution? To me it makes more sense than going on blind faith of something I was told as a child to not question. You just believe this or you'll burn in hell forever. WTF? It amazes me how all religions have a common belief. Their religion is THE one to follow. All others are wrong and you will pay dearly for choosing otherwise. Don't dare decide for yourself. You are taught from an early age whatever your parents follow, that is yours to follow as well. No questions. I was brought up as a southern babtist. I've tried to follow it but it dosen't fit. The older I get I find I'm more of a spiritual person, not religious. I can get more out of Tao teachings than anything else I've experienced.

so...you think this universe just happened by chance, or do you think it was just always here?

if you find a rock on the ground, would you assume it was always there? what about if you found a watch? would you also assume that watch was always there where you found it?

do you think that watch was there, in that spot, forever, or do you think someone placed/left it there?

would you assume it was made, even if you didn't see it made? would you assume it had a watchmaker, even if you never saw him?

even if the watch did not work properly at all times, would you still believe it had a maker?

if you assume it was not made, you would have to assume all the pieces, working parts, and inner mechanisms just happened by chance. would that rationally explain the existance of the watch to you?

why can't you apply the same sort of thinking to something as simple as a watch to something as complex as the world/reality?

well?

 

[p0ink]

dammit, this is not a discussion of doctrine. religious inquiry has little to do with the topic at hand.

 

[p0ink]

Perhaps God knows the results of whatever choice we might make but at the moment we make them does not know how we will choose. That is the essence of our free will.

then that being is not the same God i am talking about, only a lesser god

 

[p0ink]

well?

 

[SwolK]

well?

as i already stated. there are many things in this life that we are not capable of understanding until we get to heaven.

 

[JayC9]

He has the power to control, but He chooses to let us make our own decisions. Is this plain enough for you. How do you believe the world was created and where man came from?

Do you suffer from ADD? For Christ’s sake man answer the bloody question and put your point across in a half intelligent manner or don't bother at all. You God boys are always broadening and narrowing an issue to suit yourselves, you're so lost in your own faith that you've stopped asking questions, you just blindly accept. You may believe you've been recruited by Jesus to spread his good word but if Jesus could have a say he'd tell you that the company's already bursting at the seams with fuckwits, come back when you've learned to think for yourself.

You're saying God has the power but he chooses not to use it for whatever reason? So you're saying God is ignoring all the pain and suffering in the world because he's got sovereignty issues to clear first? That doesn't sound like the kind loving father, the way the bible portrays God to be. A human father would do anything in his power to stop the suffering of his child yet our celestial father can't match his creation in action?

 

[UA_Iron]

God Works in mysterious ways

 

[bdog527]

then that being is not the same God i am talking about, only a lesser god

God is capable of putting limitations on Himself.

 

[bdog527]

God is capable of putting limitations on Himself.

I don't believe this btw just stating it as a possibility.

I personally believe in a passive God who merely sets in motion the events then sits back as they unfold. He may know our choices but doesn't interfere with our decisions or the outcome. Therefore every person is born with a soul even if they already damned so to speak.

 

[p0ink]

God is capable of putting limitations on Himself.

not possible. a perfect being would not have limits.

 

[UA_Iron]

I dont think anyone here will have an answer to something they could not possibly fathom.

 

[Dry Muscle]

Do you suffer from ADD? For Christ’s sake man answer the bloody question and put your point across in a half intelligent manner or don't bother at all. You God boys are always broadening and narrowing an issue to suit yourselves, you're so lost in your own faith that you've stopped asking questions, you just blindly accept. You may believe you've been recruited by Jesus to spread his good word but if Jesus could have a say he'd tell you that the company's already bursting at the seams with fuckwits, come back when you've learned to think for yourself.

You're saying God has the power but he chooses not to use it for whatever reason? So you're saying God is ignoring all the pain and suffering in the world because he's got sovereignty issues to clear first? That doesn't sound like the kind loving father, the way the bible portrays God to be. A human father would do anything in his power to stop the suffering of his child yet our celestial father can't match his creation in action?

Easy.

He did answer the question, more than that he can't because he doesn't know. There are many things about God's Will and plan that are a complete mystery and are meant to stay that way. The only people it has been revealed to were the three siblings in Medjugorje, Yugoslavia, by Mother Mary. Two are deceased, and I'm not sure about the other sister, but I think she still lives and has spent her life in quiet reflection in the Vatican. To say he's blindly accepting is accurate, but if I were him I would take it as a compliment and not in the insulting way that you meant it, for a follower of God is meant to trust in him and the things that he has said, done, or not said and done, and not to question. However, I think it is realistic and normal for people to question their faith from time to time, I have done it many times, or feel frustrated and angry at God for the bad things in our life and in the world.

Bear in mind that most of the tragic events in life are committed by the hand of man..not the hand of God. There has to be a lesson in this life somewhere, and if God intercepted every bad thing that man did, there would be no goodness to try to uphold in this life. Isn't that the whole point of being a follower of God? To be a brave solidier in Christ?

People can ask all the questions they want, but I know for myself that I won't get certain answers until I die. In the meantime, I can try to extract from the Bible certain things and apply them to my life, be thankful for what I do have, and try to help others who can't help themselves. In all that's been written and said about God, the message comes down to that..and how simple it really is.

 

[p0ink]

Easy.

He did answer the question, more than that he can't because he doesn't know. There are many things about God's Will and plan that are a complete mystery and are meant to stay that way. The only people it has been revealed to were the three siblings in Medjugorje, Yugoslavia, by Mother Mary. Two are deceased, and I'm not sure about the other sister, but I think she still lives and has spent her life in quiet reflection in the Vatican.

People can ask all the questions they want, but I know for myself that I won't get certain answers until I die. In the meantime, I can try to extract from the Bible certain things and apply them to my life, be thankful for what I do have, and try to help others who can't help themselves. In all that's been written and said about God, the message comes down to that..and how simple it really is.

you believe God revealed his will to someone? on what evidence can you base that upon, besides their personal accounts and revelations?

no man knows, or could even possibly understand, God's will.

and lastly, one cannot simply say there is no God, because he lets 'bad things' happen. no one knows what 'good' can come out of the 'bad things' that have happened.

for example, some of you could say that what is happening in iraq right now is horrible. ok, but do you know, for a fact, that country won't be better or in 5, 10, or 20 years?

 

[digger]

You, Simon, shall be called Peter, my rock, and upon this rock I shall build my church.

And you Matthew, and you, Timothy, be not dismayed, for you shall be my paper, and my scissors."

 

[bdog527]

not possible. a perfect being would not have limits.

omnipotent

adj : having unlimited power

God is capable of anything.

 

[p0ink]

omnipotent

adj : having unlimited power

God is capable of anything.

then if God could limit his power, he would not be 'capable of anything'.

i think your definition of 'anything' is what is throwing you off here. for example, does God have the ability to make square circles?

 

[bdog527]

then if God could limit his power, he would not be 'capable of anything'.

i think your definition of 'anything' is what is throwing you off here. for example, does God have the ability to make square circles?

Sure, I may not comprehend it but there are no limits to God's power.

 

[p0ink]

Sure, I may not comprehend it but there are no limits to God's power.

ok, if God makes a 'square circle', that has a square shape, it must be a square. likewise, if God makes a 'square circle' that is circular, it must be a circle.

this isn't a question of relativity. ie, put you hand in the oven @ 400 degrees for 1 minute, and then dunk it in a bucket of water @ 85 degrees. does the bucket not feel cold after your hand has been baking at 400 degrees? but is it actually cold? no.

my point is, you can't have two opposing properties describing an object like a 'square circle'. there is no room left for interpretation.

it is metaphysically and, in my opinion, epistemically impossible.

when i say God is capable of doing anything, i mean in the sense of anything logically possible. for example, it is physically impossible for me to run from colorado to florida in a nanosecond. however, it is logically possible for me to conceive of the idea of running from colorado to florida in a nanosecond.

squares and circles have mathematical and lingual set and defined limits. anything outside of those, will be neither a square nor a circle.

 

[SwolK]

ok, if God makes a 'square circle', that has a square shape, it must be a square. likewise, if God makes a 'square circle' that is circular, it must be a circle.

this isn't a question of relativity. ie, put you hand in the oven @ 400 degrees for 1 minute, and then dunk it in a bucket of water @ 85 degrees. does the bucket not feel cold after your hand has been baking at 400 degrees? but is it actually cold? no.

my point is, you can't have two opposing properties describing an object like a 'square circle'. there is no room left for interpretation.

it is metaphysically and, in my opinion, epistemically impossible.

when i say God is capable of doing anything, i mean in the sense of anything logically possible. for example, it is physically impossible for me to run from colorado to florida in a nanosecond. however, it is logically possible for me to conceive of the idea of running from colorado to florida in a nanosecond.

squares and circles have mathematical and lingual set and defined limits. anything outside of those, will be neither a square nor a circle.

I do not think you can limit God or His powers to a mathematical and lingual set and defined limits....

The bottom line is that just because we can not comprehind something, a square circle, does not mean that God can't do it.

There ARE things that we CAN NOT understand at this point

 

[bdog527]

ok, if God makes a 'square circle', that has a square shape, it must be a square. likewise, if God makes a 'square circle' that is circular, it must be a circle.

this isn't a question of relativity. ie, put you hand in the oven @ 400 degrees for 1 minute, and then dunk it in a bucket of water @ 85 degrees. does the bucket not feel cold after your hand has been baking at 400 degrees? but is it actually cold? no.

my point is, you can't have two opposing properties describing an object like a 'square circle'. there is no room left for interpretation.

it is metaphysically and, in my opinion, epistemically impossible.

when i say God is capable of doing anything, i mean in the sense of anything logically possible. for example, it is physically impossible for me to run from colorado to florida in a nanosecond. however, it is logically possible for me to conceive of the idea of running from colorado to florida in a nanosecond.

squares and circles have mathematical and lingual set and defined limits. anything outside of those, will be neither a square nor a circle.

I understand what you are saying poink. However thinking logically, how do you explain where God came from? It is logical to think in terms of start and finish, beginning and end. How do you apply this to God?

 

[p0ink]

I do not think you can limit God or His powers to a mathematical and lingual set and defined limits....

The bottom line is that just because we can not comprehind something, a square circle, does not mean that God can't do it.

There ARE things that we CAN NOT understand at this point

ok, lets forget definitions for a second.

could God, in any possible reality, make 2+2=5?

 

[p0ink]

I understand what you are saying poink. However thinking logically, how do you explain where God came from? It is logical to think in terms of start and finish, beginning and end. How do you apply this to God?

before I get into this, do you agree numbers have no end?

 

[bdog527]

before I get into this, do you agree numbers have no end?

yes