Question for BiggT and current/past users

[nelmsjer]

I hope it gives you some reassurance.....just expect progress to be eye popping when you look back over 2-3 months and not so much from workout to workout. And enjoy every last second of the body recomp and having the upper back and shoulder girdle of a comic book character, because unfortunately, that goes back to the before state a couple weeks after your last shot.

BiggT, I pulled this from a post you placed in blut_wump's journal. I didn't want to threadjack, so I'm starting a new one.

I want to attempt to clarify why I'm asking the question I have. Simply, I am curious and ignorant at the same time. I have no judgement against the intelligent use of steroids, after training and diet have been addressed properly over a period of years. I bolded something from your post that intrigues me.

See, I can completely understand the concept of taking steroids, as long as a majority of the gains can be kept. Even 60% of the gains would be great, from what I understand. But the bolded portion doesn't make sense to me, psychologically. If it is gone afterward, what was the purpose? I am NOT asking that negatively, I'm asking it sincerely.

I have NO DOUBT that when I am as venerable as blut_wump has become ( ), that I, too, will seek out the means to maintain the hormone levels that will keep the atrophy process at bay (along with the myriad of other positive benefits associated with sane use). So, I'll be there someday, too, but I'm interested in what you have to say about this concept.

I hope that came across as intended.

 

[silver_shadow]

ummm.... not everyone loses everything... there are some factors involved. these are the same factors that help you gain weight quickly while off cycle:
1) eating
2) training
3) this one is related to how you cycled in the first place... too long = hard shutdown of natty test (this is true for any dosage - high or low). this coupled with how good your PCT is will play a huge role in how much of the gains you do keep just after the cycle.
now, if you go over to the anabolic board, there are varying opinions on how much you will keep in the long run. for instance, a guy gains 25 lbs on his first cycle. that is 25 lbs at the start of PCT. much of this will be water, so he is fooled into believing he gained this. take away the AAS and he will suddenly drop alot of weight... water weight straightaway. how much of it is water depends on which AAS. for instance, they say of anadrol: "gain 25 lbs on it, piss and lose it all!"
now he will start his PCT.... no matter how good, he is going to lose some more weight (this time muscle) because of low endo test levels and estrogen backlash. i believe many guys will lose muscle because they what they ate to gain on cycle is enough to gain on cycle but is not enough off. the other factor is that the body tries to negate any attempt to put on more weight over and above an average weight. every lb over and above that becomes more and more difficult to gain because the body does not want to be overweight and will become sluggish in muscle building as more is added. a sudden gain in weight (as with AAS use) will most certainly have the body working in the reverse direction once dosage is stopped.
bottomline is that 10lbs off a cycle of pure muscle gained AND KEPT (upto 4-5 mths later) is good. as i said, there are too many guys around who claim they gained 25 and kept it all.... honestly, i really doubt the veracity of such a claim.

 

[blut wump]

For myself, I reckoned that, as I became ever more venerable, the chance to do a cycle of AAS was slipping away. I've been reading/researching on and off for a couple of years and decided that I had no good reasons to put it off any longer. I had blood tests done and practically everything came in as 'normal' so I thought I'd take the shot while I was still a good cut of prime beef.

Guinness's log might have been the last element that pushed me over the edge but my view on AAS has become that it will basically give me a period of accelerated progress. Whether I can hold onto what I gain remains to be seen but is part of the experience.

The traps and shoulders, for most people, from what I've read, hold a high affinity for androgens. As such, they tend to swell, with muscle rather than water, more than most other parts of the body and then the homeostasis to which SS refers will take some of that away when the androgens are no longer available. I've even read posts where people have suggested that to check who is currently using in your gym just check out people's traps.

I've tried to keep paranoid about water weight, bloat and excess oestrogen so I'm hoping that any weight gains I make are almost all fat and muscle and really me. I'm hoping that I have enough training (and eating) experience to hold onto what I gain and use it as the basis for continued progress. Time will tell.

 

[Guinness5.0]

I've done three cycles, and after each I've remained bigger/stronger. Certainly not to the extent of being 'on' (LOL - got up to 262 on one of 'em ), but nonetheless I netted sustainable gains across the board after them all. As alluded to above, keeping gains has a lot to do with how you come off. This is where importance of the use of Dual Factor theory really climbs - if you're mired in fatigue, then go from 5x your normal test level to UNDER your normal test level, you are in a bad spot.

As I understand it, there are many who get to the point where they need gear just to stay where they are. I hope that I never get to that point, but I could see another run in my future.

And just a random thought - it's widely accepted that it takes less gear to make tremendous strength gains than to add tons of hypertrophy.

 

[nelmsjer]

Guys, I really appreciate this, especially from those that have posted so far. Keep the discussion and input going. Y'all rock.

 

[BiggT]

Nelmsjer,

I find that with proper/reasonable use of steroids, proper cycling of training, and eating enough and living a clean lifestyle (ie; not getting drunk, sleeping plenty, no recreational drugs, no smoking, having structure to my daily routine like going to bed at a reasonable hour and waking up early, etc) that I gain from the cycle by having better strength levels than before I started.

With any advanced trainee who lives clean, trains correctly, and eats correctly, steroids will not produce that "What the Fuck" dramatic change overnight that you see in most gym rats who have no business using them. They will produce improvements in appearance and performance over periods of time though. They are an enhancer.

To me, and I hope I am not out of line here, but I will also assume for guys like Blut Wump and Guiness, steroids are a means to guarantee yourself progress over sustained periods greater than you would normally make given the fact that you're more of an advanced lifter. For me, I could recover faster and feel fresh and alert at all workouts, even on days I thought I would drag, I warm up and it was like a bomb went off and I would feel like a million dollars at the gym.

The only "Wow" moments I would really have would be in terms of a sudden increased sex drive. Being a normal guy, the sex drive is pretty high anyway, but I really noticed an increased interest to the point where it was hard to concentrate on anything but sex if a woman at work or school was talking to me. Even girls who normally just wouldn't be my type for whatever reason looked good. And your self confidence is heightened. I don't want any women reading this to take offense, and I want to point out that this is easily kept at bay through self-control, but I want to give an accurate account. I also noticed I was more clear-headed and had improved concentration.

About the progress being more eye-popping long-term. I am referring to the fact, that in advanced lifters, huge progress can no longer be made from session to session. Steroids help you acheive a state where you can consistently make PR's over a string of 3 months or so where you probably would have made much less of a strength increase in that time. For guys who don't know how to train or eat and who never really lift with progress in mind (most of the frat boy type gear users), they make more dramatic progress percentage-wise because they were basically in an untrained state (despite the fact that they are physically present at the gym every day).

Now, for the body recomp. I am going to give how I see it. I am going to come out and admit that my background isn't science and bio-chemistry, but this is my personal explanation. If somebody with more expertise in science wants to clarify, or give a more accurate explanation, please post, I won't take any offense.....With gear, both in myself, and in the countless other people (male and female) I have seen use it, from all backgrounds and with all levels of training experience, the most noted effect is an increase in body weight, while 'looking better'/recompositioning your fat : muscle ratio for the better. The stomach (in men) and the legs/hips/ass (in women) and other common areas of fat storage get leaner and harder while the weight on the scale climbs. Physically, the most noticable physical changes (and for anybody with personal knowledge in the area) are the changes in the upper back/traps and the shoulder girdle. Depending on the drug, some people get a swelling of the cheeks and neck/lymph nodes. But, for me, the dead giveaway is a dramatic change in the upper back and shoulder girdle, which goes much beyond "this person added some muscle". It almost looks surreal, like the body changes shape in those areas (traps, rear delts, and the entire shoulder girdle). Now, this is not permanent, I can tell you that from experience, and when someone returns to a more normal state, these areas almost look 'mushier' and is more confirmation that they were 'on' at the time you noticed the dramatic improvements. I feel it is impossible to hold onto this state because it is purely chemically induced by the increased levels of male hormones. This is where I may not be scientifically on the money, so if someone wants to add, please do so.

As far as gains, you cannot keep the feeling of being 'on' obviously, but, depending on the % you gained on your lifts, you can keep varying degrees of that strength, and when cycled properly, in almost all cases, you should ultimately remain stronger that before you used.

 

[Tweakle]

It's a totally individual thing, all the clomid and novla in the world wont matter one bit if your natural max is surpassed.

Some people can do a cycle, come off and maintain a percentage of size and strength. Some cannot. Suppression, natural hormone levels and a hundred other factors come into play

if you maxed out at 200lbs and single digits, with (say) a 315 bench and did a month, year, decade whatever 'on', got up to 220 and came off.. you would go back to 200lbs after a month or so, possibly even less because your natural test levels are shot. Even if your test was back to what it was before it will still not be enough to support 20lbs of muscle over and above what your body is capable of holding. This is a harsh reality, and eating like a pig to hold onto the 'size' post cycle will NOT fix this.

some people are exceptions but I dont believe they were truely maxed out, or even close. My natural limits are truely pathetic, and I slip back to them everytime I try to go clean (which is why I run some generous HRT year round )

 

[Tweakle]

one other thing I should add, even if its not 100% relevant - you can get big and strong without juice, and add 'size' though massive eating. But chances are you will end up looking like shit and lose all that you gained when you diet off the flab.

the primary use for juice I see is to keep you lean and strong

 

[BiggT]

the primary use for juice I see is to keep you lean and strong

I agree with this. The only argument against it is 'relative strength', but in terms of absolute strength, the way most guys can attain world-class numbers naturally is IF they have the genetics and if they eat themselves to some belt busting bodyweights. Paul Anderson didn't juice, but again, most people today wouldn't aspire to his physique. Same thing with Louis Cyr. You can certainly be 'strong in your own right' or 'stronger than most people' and be natural and reasonably lean, but when dealing with world-class strength and absolute strength compared to the best in the world it is not likely you'll find someone who is both natural AND lean. There are always exceptions to every rule, but generally speaking, with most athletes, this is what you'll notice.

An aside note......on my post above, I wanted to make it clear that I am relaying my own personal experiences. With me, I train consistently year-round with progress in mind and the times I have used it was never more than 400mg of test a week or 400mg of deca. I've used d-bols, but I never took more than 4 tabs a day. So results will vary on the individual's unique circumstances.

 

[nelmsjer]

Dang...all of you guys are giving great, very intelligent input. I appreciate it a ton. IP has even popped in on this one and talked with me about it.

 

[blut wump]

I can see threads likes this ushering in a dark age for the training board.

There have been times over the past few weeks when I've thought that this has to be simply the most stupid thing that I've ever done. Usually as I'm swabbing my huge, naked arse and about to stick a needle into it just so that I can work harder at a hobby. That said, once it's done I pretty much forget about it for another four days which beats messing around with creatine or orals. When it comes down to it, there's very little to the whole process once you've done some basic research.

On the other hand, one is messing around with one's hormones and the systems of the body that drive and control them. It is possible that your hair will fall out or that your prostate will be aggravated and take months to return to normal and I understand that if you're genetically disposed to it then there's little, if anything, you can do to avoid either of those. Your blood pressure will rise and there are increased risks of thromboses if you are disposed to them.

Oestrogen levels will rise every bit as much as testosterone levels which can give rise to female characteristics just as the testosterone gives rise to male ones. Your systems to produce testosterone will be switched off, become dormant and atrophy. When you discontinue usage, your body will have about as much ability to make testosterone as the average four year old girl.

Obviously, there are ways to keep most of the undesirable effects at bay and there are well-established methods to restore your hormone levels once it's over but the PCT forum is littered with guys who didn't do it right and despair of ever having sex again.

What I'm getting at is that, while the process is straightforward, it's not to be entered into lightly. You need to do your research to have an idea what types of things to anticipate and how to control them should they arise. You also need to ask why you'd want to be doing such a thing when you're still making good solid progress especially if you live in a country where it's deemed a criminal activity.

This post isn't directed at anyone but over the past year talk of juice has mostly stayed away from this board and concentrated in the AAS forum. I'm concerned that some might drift onto this thread who have access to steroids and think "If those guys can do it then so can I". I'd recommend everyone to abstain until they are confident that they are as prepared as they can be in all the areas of education, training and diet. There's a ton of information floating around and it's your duty to yourself to be acquainted with much of it.

If you can't answer every newbie question on the AAS board then you're almost certainly not adequately prepared. Equally, if you are well below having impressive lifts and don't know how to make even slow progress naturally then you are not ready and will likely lose all of any gains you make.

Once you have an acceptance that it's not necessarily a bad thing the next step is curiosity. Once curiosity becomes fascination, you're on a slippery slide.

 

[silver_shadow]

I can see threads likes this ushering in a dark age for the training board.

There have been times over the past few weeks when I've thought that this has to be simply the most stupid thing that I've ever done. Usually as I'm swabbing my huge, naked arse and about to stick a needle into it just so that I can work harder at a hobby. That said, once it's done I pretty much forget about it for another four days which beats messing around with creatine or orals. When it comes down to it, there's very little to the whole process once you've done some basic research.

On the other hand, one is messing around with one's hormones and the systems of the body that drive and control them. It is possible that your hair will fall out or that your prostate will be aggravated and take months to return to normal and I understand that if you're genetically disposed to it then there's little, if anything, you can do to avoid either of those. Your blood pressure will rise and there are increased risks of thromboses if you are disposed to them.

Oestrogen levels will rise every bit as much as testosterone levels which can give rise to female characteristics just as the testosterone gives rise to male ones. Your systems to produce testosterone will be switched off, become dormant and atrophy. When you discontinue usage, your body will have about as much ability to make testosterone as the average four year old girl.

Obviously, there are ways to keep most of the undesirable effects at bay and there are well-established methods to restore your hormone levels once it's over but the PCT forum is littered with guys who didn't do it right and despair of ever having sex again.

What I'm getting at is that, while the process is straightforward, it's not to be entered into lightly. You need to do your research to have an idea what types of things to anticipate and how to control them should they arise. You also need to ask why you'd want to be doing such a thing when you're still making good solid progress especially if you live in a country where it's deemed a criminal activity.

This post isn't directed at anyone but over the past year talk of juice has mostly stayed away from this board and concentrated in the AAS forum. I'm concerned that some might drift onto this thread who have access to steroids and think "If those guys can do it then so can I". I'd recommend everyone to abstain until they are confident that they are as prepared as they can be in all the areas of education, training and diet. There's a ton of information floating around and it's your duty to yourself to be acquainted with much of it.

If you can't answer every newbie question on the AAS board then you're almost certainly not adequately prepared. Equally, if you are well below having impressive lifts and don't know how to make even slow progress naturally then you are not ready and will likely lose all of any gains you make.

Once you have an acceptance that it's not necessarily a bad thing the next step is curiosity. Once curiosity becomes fascination, you're on a slippery slide.

good thing you said this out bro. i'd like to add to this. at the end of the day, until you've tried a new compound and a certain dosage, you DON'T have any idea how your going to react. YES, you are playing a game of dice. AAS is NOT candy - it is serious business. the point is that, till you actually try something, you won't know if your going to have an adverse reaction. it is possible that the same compound and same LOW dosage could have no negative effects on one person, yet it could raise BP alarmingly or cause an excess of estrogen (and lead to gyno) in another person. (gyno - assuming your a guy). bear in mind that something like gyno, if it gets out of hand will require EXPENSIVE surgery to remove.

 

[nelmsjer]

Guys, I have absolutely NO problem if this thread gets moved to the other forum. Should I alert a mod?

 

[silver_shadow]

Guys, I have absolutely NO problem if this thread gets moved to the other forum. Should I alert a mod?

have you seen the anabolic board.... i think this post will get lost there. i for one would like to see this post stay here. JMO

 

[blut wump]

As a Plat you can move it yourself if you see fit but I have no problems with its being here and if it were moved we'd likely be swamped with 'what do you think of this cycle' posts.

My last post was really just by way of a caution to the unwary.

 

[nelmsjer]

So be it. It shall stay. It's a damn good thread, if I may be so bold to say so.

 

[Tweakle]

I concur

One other thing to think on, which is cautionary to those thinking of AAS - you need to be realistic about your genetic potential and ability to build muscle. AAS will increase that when 'on' but it will NOT turn a 165 struggling hard gainer into ronnie coleman. In fact it won't even put him on a level footing with half the naturals in his gym... it is not an easy option to add mass, and chances are YOU do not have the genetics to make use of steroids in the low doses that are relatively safe.

individual response to AAS can vary by up to 4 times between individuals so think on that.. what takes Joe Meso a small, light cycle to build will take Timmy Hardgainer grams and grams a week of harsh androgens to get even close to the same results. And the sides are usually harsher on non-responders than the lucky few... think on that if you've been sold a Happy Shiny dream about drugs from the most vocal of the halfwits on the AAS forum

 

[xblitz44x]

I concur

One other thing to think on, which is cautionary to those thinking of AAS - you need to be realistic about your genetic potential and ability to build muscle. AAS will increase that when 'on' but it will NOT turn a 165 struggling hard gainer into ronnie coleman. In fact it won't even put him on a level footing with half the naturals in his gym... it is not an easy option to add mass, and chances are YOU do not have the genetics to make use of steroids in the low doses that are relatively safe.

individual response to AAS can vary by up to 4 times between individuals so think on that.. what takes Joe Meso a small, light cycle to build will take Timmy Hardgainer grams and grams a week of harsh androgens to get even close to the same results. And the sides are usually harsher on non-responders than the lucky few... think on that if you've been sold a Happy Shiny dream about drugs from the most vocal of the halfwits on the AAS forum

Timmy Hardgainer is a good guy.

 

[nelmsjer]

Just one bump for any other thoughts. Thanks again to everyone. This was great.