Provide me a routine for 100,000 karma.

[eat big]

Okay so I've been doing 5x5 for a long time. For some time now, my weight in workouts has been dropping and I've thought it was because I wasn't mentally tough enough etc. I finally now think it is overtraining. I took a week off two weeks ago, trained heavy last week, went to do squats today just felt tired and left without feeling angry because I knew I wasn't in the right state of mind mentally.

I am 20 years old, trained for several months straight at a time and made great progress untill recently. I would train one body part a day, 5 days a week, arms on one day. My workouts would involve at least 4 exercises per body part and about 20+ sets. Every set was a working set, many were to failure. I have recently tried to do less and it's very hard for me. My core exercises would be lower reps and my following exercises would be higher reps. Much like a 5x5 but modified with much more volume and many more sets at higher reps.

What I am looking for is a routine that would allow me to de-load for a while, then go into a sophistacted routine over the summer. If one of you wants to design it that's fine. But I want to try something different than the regular 5x5 I have been doing. I only did Squat, DL and Bench once a week for the past several months.

Here is my routine I've done for several months and have recently stopped gaining -- big time:
http://i3.tinypic.com/xeg0oy.jpg

Keep in mind most sets were to close failure which is what I think fucked me. I always wanted to feel sore the next day etc.


Slow and steady wins the karma for this one.

I have viewed the stuff madcow has posted and it's over my head thus far.

Another problem I think I've had is that I've designed my own routines and have overtrained. I want a routine provided for me that won't let me overtrain if I do everything right.

 

[H_T_]

try varying the 5x5 with lower reps. try going for 3-6 sets of 3-6 reps then 1-3 sets of 1-3 reps.

 

[Cynical Simian]

I have viewed the stuff madcow has posted and it's over my head thus far.

Another problem I think I've had is that I've designed my own routines and have overtrained. I want a routine provided for me that won't let me overtrain if I do everything right.

"Over my head": Have you read all of the starred articles on madcow's site? Also, take a look a blut wump's journal to get an idea of what a run of the DF 5x5, with its manipulation of fatigue, looks like.

"Overtraining/routine": You're missing the point: you're not going to be able to do the same routine with continually increasing resistance with no adjustments until you're 50. Eventually, fatigue will set in. The closest thing to what you want would probably be the single-factor 5x5, which tries to delay that fatigue as long as possible by ramping the sets.

I know you're going to say "but I've been doing the 5x5 already". My response is that you haven't been doing what most people on here refer to as "the" 5x5, you've been doing a routine that happens to use five-rep sets for some big compound exercises. The 5x5 of madcow/Pendlay/Rippetoe/Starr has a lot more going on (frequency, systemic load, etc.) than the "go into the gym and throw everything you can at (to use a favorite BBing word, "destroy") Bodypart X one day per week" routines you've been doing.

 

[jdevlin1985]

simple 4 sets, 8-12 reps for larger bodyparts, 3 sets, 12 reps for smaller.

 

[eat big]

"Over my head": Have you read all of the starred articles on madcow's site? Also, take a look a blut wump's journal to get an idea of what a run of the DF 5x5, with its manipulation of fatigue, looks like.

"Overtraining/routine": You're missing the point: you're not going to be able to do the same routine with continually increasing resistance with no adjustments until you're 50. Eventually, fatigue will set in. The closest thing to what you want would probably be the single-factor 5x5, which tries to delay that fatigue as long as possible by ramping the sets.

I know you're going to say "but I've been doing the 5x5 already". My response is that you haven't been doing what most people on here refer to as "the" 5x5, you've been doing a routine that happens to use five-rep sets for some big compound exercises. The 5x5 of madcow/Pendlay/Rippetoe/Starr has a lot more going on (frequency, systemic load, etc.) than the "go into the gym and throw everything you can at (to use a favorite BBing word, "destroy") Bodypart X one day per week" routines you've been doing.

I have spent the past few days reading his site and the articles and it doesn't make much sense to me really. I am unable to, as you said, put all of the things together and apply them which is why I made this thread. I've been doing the same thing forever and it worked, but now I'm basically a beginner in terms of knowledge.

 

[anotherbutters]

I have recently tried to do less and it's very hard for me.

Looks like you've fallen into the trap of thinking 'more = better'. There's nothing 5x5 about your routine at all. The 5x5 doesn't have half the crap you have in there and it has good frequency for the key lifts. Just follow the SF 5x5 to the letter, stay out of the gym when you're not supposed to be there and you should start making progress again.

You'll stall again at some point, as you will with any program, but the SF 5x5 should keep you going for a few months.

 

[Cynical Simian]

Spending more time hanging around on this forum (bit less C&C time ), looking through journals, and rereading the articles can help a lot with madcow's stuff. I don't think anybody coming from a standard bodypart-split or non-lifting background has ever just looked at it and understood it completely.

In all honesty, though, probably the best way to understand it better is just to run the program. The things you see on threads, journals and madcow's site make a lot more sense if you're actually doing stuff like reramping, adjusting work sets, etc. that utilizes the ideas you've been reading about.

 

[eat big]

Spending more time hanging around on this forum (bit less C&C time ), looking through journals, and rereading the articles can help a lot with madcow's stuff. I don't think anybody coming from a standard bodypart-split or non-lifting background has ever just looked at it and understood it completely.

In all honesty, though, probably the best way to understand it better is just to run the program. The things you see on threads, journals and madcow's site make a lot more sense if you're actually doing stuff like reramping, adjusting work sets, etc. that utilizes the ideas you've been reading about.

Yeah but they honestly, don't make sense to me at all. I've read over them many times, just now too and it doesn't make much sense to me. For once, I just want to go by a set routine that someone provided me and just do it. I'm tired of designing my own routines and getting shitty results. I'm just very very frustrated. My training has been absolute shit for months now.

 

[anotherbutters]

Just download the spreadsheet from the intermediate program, enter the values in the yellow cells and stick to it.

You'll make better progress because of the better frequency and you'll be putting all your effort into lifts that matter.

 

[Cynical Simian]

Look at it this way: even if you don't understand it completely, you can take solace in the fact that there actually is an underlying rationale to the program. Can you say that about the programs you've been doing in the past?

I think madcow says something to this effect somewhere on the site: the actual programs he's provided are just cookie-cutter ones that are supposed to be as idiot-proof as possible. They can be run successfully without complete understanding, and are a way to get used to this type of training while getting stronger at the same time. Once you've run them, or programs using similar ideas a few times, you'll almost certainly break from the mold and tweak them or apply the general principles to your own program design.

 

[eat big]

Just download the spreadsheet from the intermediate program, enter the values in the yellow cells and stick to it.

You'll make better progress because of the better frequency and you'll be putting all your effort into lifts that matter.

Okay, I will try that for a while. Right now, I'm thinking, that won't even make me sore, and it won't challenge me enough because I am used to much more volume.

 

[jdevlin1985]

Am i seriously missing something here?

 

[eat big]

Am i seriously missing something here?

I don't think so. I think I'm missing much more than anyone here. I stuck to a routine for a while and became isolated from other methods and now I'm expanding into other ideas.

 

[eat big]

Anotherbutters, I should just change the weights in the yellow cells, not the percentages below that right?

 

[Cynical Simian]

Okay, I will try that for a while. Right now, I'm thinking, that won't even make me sore, and it won't challenge me enough because I am used to much more volume.

Soreness doesn't mean jack; you'll be surprised what you can do without getting excessive soreness you're used to once you adjust to increased frequency.

Glad to see you took my suggestion to do the SF 5x5.

 

[jdevlin1985]

I don't think so. I think I'm missing much more than anyone here. I stuck to a routine for a while and became isolated from other methods and now I'm expanding into other ideas.

what are you trying to achieve? to put on more muscle i'm guessing? I don't get whats so difficult dude

 

[Cynical Simian]

Yellow cells under "test weight" only.

 

[eat big]

Soreness doesn't mean jack; you'll be surprised what you can do without getting excessive soreness you're used to once you adjust to increased frequency.

Glad to see you took my suggestion to do the SF 5x5.

Do you think the advanced would be feasible at this stage? I got something to unzip rar. files and I can finally see how idiot proof he made it for us which is great. I would run that program, then do it again and tweak a few things that I find necessary. Does that sound good?

 

[anotherbutters]

Okay, I will try that for a while. Right now, I'm thinking, that won't even make me sore, and it won't challenge me enough because I am used to much more volume.

By what measure are you used to much more volume? You said your training "has been absolute shit for months now". Don't you think that might be because of the volume?

You're right about the 5x5 not making you sore. It might do for the first couple of weeks, but not after that. It'll just make you stronger. Soreness just means you're not used to an exercise. If you only do an exercise once every 7 days, it's no wonder you get sore. What do you want, soreness or to get stronger and set PRs for several weeks in a row?

I should just change the weights in the yellow cells, not the percentages below that right?

Yeah, leave the percentages. Don't worry about them to start with.

 

[Cynical Simian]

Since you haven't done a program with this sort of frequency before, go with the SF 5x5.

 

[eat big]

Since you haven't done a program with this sort of frequency before, go with the SF 5x5.

That would be the intermediate correct? The one anotherbutters listed?

 

[Cynical Simian]

Correct.

 

[eat big]

Correct.

One more question, for the rows, I read the thread where madcow said to do them parallel, should I do underhand or overhand grip?

And does the weight stay the same for the extensions and curls for 3x8?

 

[Cynical Simian]

Do either for rows. I and most others do overhand, but Anthrax Invasion is a big fan of underhand.

Yeah, just use the same weight for all three sets on the assistance stuff (no ramping).

 

[anotherbutters]

The advanced program isn't better, it's just a necessary step that you have to take when you're a lot stronger and your progress has really slowed down. You will make quicker gains on the intermediate program to start with, trust me.

 

[eat big]

Do either for rows. I and most others do overhand, but Anthrax Invasion is a big fan of underhand.

Yeah, just use the same weight for all three sets on the assistance stuff (no ramping).

Alright cool. I will begin tomorrow. The K goes to you for helping me throughout here. I may seem disgruntled, and I was and still sort of am because my training has been absolute shit for months now and quite honestly, I have finals coming up and I've been stressed to the core lately.

 

[anotherbutters]

You think you're disgruntled

Seriously, stick with the 5x5, you'll do well on it after what you've been following. Congrats CS, you bastard

 

[eat big]

You think you're disgruntled

Seriously, stick with the 5x5, you'll do well on it after what you've been following. Congrats CS, you bastard

Yeah, I haven't been ramping. I've been doing 5x5 with 225 for bench for example, and if I get the 5th rep of the 5th set, I move up weight. I will give this a try and start a journal here tomorrow.

 

[anotherbutters]

Don't be alarmed that you'll be lifting weights lower than you're capable of lifting for the first 2-3 weeks. That's by design. The progressively increasing weight from workout to workout over a period of time (in this case the first 4 weeks) is what gets you stronger.

For example, if you were stuck on 225 for bench, going in and benching 225 every workout will only get you good at benching 225. Your body needs to see the weights going up, even if they're sub-maximal.

By the time you get to week 4, you ought to be stronger, so the weights ought to carry on going up for a while longer.

Thanks for the k transfer. You're a sport!

 

[eat big]

Don't be alarmed that you'll be lifting weights lower than you're capable of lifting for the first 2-3 weeks. That's by design. The progressively increasing weight from workout to workout over a period of time (in this case the first 4 weeks) is what gets you stronger.

For example, if you were stuck on 225 for bench, going in and benching 225 every workout will only get you good at benching 225. Your body needs to see the weights going up, even if they're sub-maximal.

By the time you get to week 4, you ought to be stronger, so the weights ought to carry on going up for a while longer.

Thanks for the k transfer. You're a sport!

No shoulder work is necessary? No calve work either?

 

[anotherbutters]

A common substitute is to do standing military press instead of inclines on Wednesdays, so you might want to do that to target the shoulders a bit more.

The program focuses on getting you stronger at the big compound movements - squat, bench, dead, overhead press (in the case of military press) and rows. Putting all your effort into those will yield excellent results and because you're practically doing full body workouts every session, your body will grow nice and uniformly without lots of direct work.

The direct bicep and tricep work is only included to keep people happy, not because it's really that necessary. I'd count direct calf work in that camp too. Run the program unchanged to start with.

 

[eat big]

A common substitute is to do standing military press instead of inclines on Wednesdays, so you might want to do that to target the shoulders a bit more.

The program focuses on getting you stronger at the big compound movements - squat, bench, dead, overhead press (in the case of military press) and rows. Putting all your effort into those will yield excellent results and because you're practically doing full body workouts every session, your body will grow nice and uniformly without lots of direct work.

The direct bicep and tricep work is only included to keep people happy, not because it's really that necessary. I'd count direct calf work in that camp too. Run the program unchanged to start with.

Alright cool. I'm going to keep a journal on my computer then I'm going to create threads when I have questions.

 

[Cynical Simian]

Sorry about disappearing right after you awarded the K...it was meal time.

AB covered pretty much everything I was going to say regarding being conservative with the increases and keeping the progression going.

Doing standing press instead of incline bench would be a good choice. Stability on the press should also be a good barometer of your core strength. It looks like your old routine had plenty of ab work but nothing that significantly uses your lower back other than deads. I think AB will agree with me on this: don't neglect those hypers!

Also, a few things you might find useful are the book Starting Strength, AB's first journal, and, of course,the massive 5x5 thread (plat searching within it should make it slightly less intimidating).

Good luck with the new program...

 

[eat big]

Sorry about disappearing right after you awarded the K...it was meal time.

AB covered pretty much everything I was going to say regarding being conservative with the increases and keeping the progression going.

Doing standing press instead of incline bench would be a good choice. Stability on the press should also be a good barometer of your core strength. It looks like your old routine had plenty of ab work but nothing that significantly uses your lower back other than deads. I think AB will agree with me on this: don't neglect those hypers!

Also, a few things you might find useful are the book Starting Strength, AB's first journal, and, of course,the massive 5x5 thread (plat searching within it should make it slightly less intimidating).

Good luck with the new program...

I just read through anotherbutters first thread because I heard it was a good thread in some post madcow made. You always perform the exercises in order they are listed? Deads shouldn't go before Incline Bench? In his journal it shows him progressing the weight in the alternative exercises as well. Should I do this too?

 

[Guinness5.0]

Just a couple thoughts regarding your question about shoulders...

Bench, rows, chins, deads all hit the shoulders. There is an obsession in popular gym culture that movements are for 'parts', but that notion is absurd to say the least. Think about it - how could you possbly bench or row without HEAVILY involving the shoulders? There are two main joints involved on both movements: the shoulders and elbows. All the muscles that surround these joints are going to get worked thouroughly.

One of the beautiful things about going to a program like this is that you'll experience what I'm referring to first-hand. Things like laterals and the like will quickly become throwaway exercises once you realize how movements actually effect your body.

 

[eat big]

Okay so if down the road I wanted to add in Chins on Wednesday like Madcow said could be done. What rep scheme should be used and should ramping be done?

 

[Introspective]

4 sets x 5 reps, either ramp up each set or ramp week to week. I would personally ramp between sets.
1.) bodyweight x 5
2.) 5lbs x 5
3.) 10 lbs x 5
4.) 15lbs x 5, increasing to 17.5lbs or 20lbs week after

 

[eat big]

4 sets x 5 reps, either ramp up each set or ramp week to week. I would personally ramp between sets.
1.) bodyweight x 5
2.) 5lbs x 5
3.) 10 lbs x 5
4.) 15lbs x 5, increasing to 17.5lbs or 20lbs week after

Alright cool thanks. Since I can barely do five with my bodyweight, I will probably ramp up every week. My legs are huge and weigh me down when I try to do pullups. It would be harder for me to keep track of ramping up every set which is a whole other issue.

 

[Cynical Simian]

Yeah, 4 or 5 sets at ~5 reps. Whether your want to ramp or not is your call; most don't, probably as much for convenience as anything else.

If your max at bodyweight is around 5, maybe do something like what AB did and spread the reps over more sets rather than training to failure trying to get 5. So, instead of trying for 4 sets of 5, do 5 sets of 4.

 

[anotherbutters]

I'm crap at chins too, so I just try to do a few more reps than the week before. I've suddenly become able to do a few more because I've lost a few pounds recently, but my aim was to get 8x3 reps, then 6x4, then 5x5, 4x6, 4x7, 3x8, then start adding weight. If you're bulking, you're naturally adding weight from week to week, so for me at least, it becomes a matter of trying to do the same amount as the week before, but at my new bodyweight.

For the other exercises in the 5x5, there's no reason to change them.

Here's my original journal for reference (not the current one): http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=413888

 

[silver_shadow]

Soreness doesn't mean jack; you'll be surprised what you can do without getting excessive soreness you're used to once you adjust to increased frequency.

Glad to see you took my suggestion to do the SF 5x5.

i don't do MC's 5x5, but my routine is similar enough in a lot of ways - namely the focus on compound lifts. as simian says, soreness is meaningless. having said that, trust me on this one, 3 compound lifts in a single workout with or without assistance will really kick your ass nicely... it IS intense. the amount of energy expended is ALOT because of the fact that these work ALL the muscles and the weight is heavier - more muscles = more energy, more weight = more energy...

 

[blut wump]

You can't really go wrong with the 5x5 template. I've run the single-factor for a while and I think it's a great choice for anyone starting out on the 5x5 methodology or anyone coming back from a layoff. After a while I've found myself wanting the extra volume of the dual-factor but it's pointless working with loading and deloading before you really need that hassle.

Good choice. Post a log when you start.