dermacrine is prob the best sup you can add to an otc stack. It brings so much to the stack. 1,4 ad bold has a slite conversion to estro though and so dos derma. Derma how ever has ingredents to off set this where as 1,4 ad bold does not. I would run a very lite amount of ai or even something like postcylce with it to off set the 1,4 ad bold's esro conversion.