power, compound, and isolation exercises

[joe shumsky]

right now, i'm using a mixture of compound and isolation exercises in my weight routine... mostly standard stuff. i want to add power moves like clean, clean and push press, etc. my question is this: how should i order the exercises within each workout? i.e., a pre-exhaustion scheme with isiolation, compound, then power? or a post-exhaustion scheme with power, compound, then isolation? which of these systems would work better and, more importantly, why?

 

[musketeer]

Warm up well and then get right into the power stuff.

Explosive things like cleans and juping exercises require the whole body and you need to be fresh to have a chance of generating maximum force in the shortest time. Keep the reps on the power sets to a maximum of 6. If you can do more than six in good form the its time to add weight.

 

[joe shumsky]

this is what i was thinking... just to clarify, would there be any merit, whatsoever, in performing the exercises in the reverse order?

 

[Madcow2]

Considering isolation work before a compound lift will rob you of effectiveness - I can't see it making sense unless used for a very specialized purpose. Certainly not trying to get bigger or stronger since the stimulus from the isolation exercise generally amounts to shit and just compromises the stimulus from the compound lift.

The explosive vs. compound order can go either way depending upon your purpose or what you are prioritizing but generally most people find it beneficial to do the cleans and snatches first and then wrap up with squatting or whatever.

 

[joe shumsky]

my instincts told me the same thing. the only reason i was considering an isolation, compound, power order was due to some stuff i read on pre-exhaustion (i.e., pre-exhausting a muscle will allow you to fatigue it more completely in a proceeding compound or power exercise.) it sounds good in theory, but if the muscle being pre-exhausted is already a weak link in an exercise, it would only be weaker when you started in on the compound and power stuff. thanks for the advice. i'm going to go with power moves first, followed by compounds, followed by isolation. what about set rep schemes and intensity techniques? any thoughts?

 

[Madcow2]

You are right in that is exactly the problem with pre-exhaustion. Not all stimulus is equal and if you compromise your abilities in the compound lifts (high quality stim) with isolation work first (low quality stim) you wind up with a really shitty trade off. Plus compound lifts tend to really hammer any weak links anyway so it makes little sense from that side either. I honestly have a lot of trouble figuring out a good use for this type of Mentzeresque Heavy Duty style pre-exhaustion type stuff except in a really exotic specialty case .

As far as the rest, unless someone is a novice I always advocate some type of periodization scheme that changes loading parameters by altering volume and intensity (% of 1RM). Basically applying dual factor theory into loading and deloading periods. If that makes no sense to you or is totally foreign you might read some of the dual factor links in this thread: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375215 as well as the program description which is a good example of what I'm talking about.

Specific to the clean and similar movements - these can be worked fairly frequently and with high intensity given that they are concentric only for the most part. Working up to an unpsyched max on a semi-regular basis isn't a big deal depending upon your conditioning. You can also opt to do away with the sets and reps for this and just do a series of singles at whatever intensity levels you might have set for that day. You could also do them in something closer to clusters or just use sets and reps. Whatever, just don't go much over 5-6 because as technique breaks down and muscles fatigue your form deteriorates too much.

 

[joe shumsky]

thanks for the thorough response, man. i have read the dual factor stuff in various threads on this site. it definitely seemed interesting. as far as the olympic lifting goes, there was a period in my life where i did strictly olympic style moves (i had a really hard time trying to teach myself the snatch, though.) anyhow, i was quite surprised how it made certain muscles hypertrophy. the growth was uneven, though... and it was this that lead me to a more conventional bodybuilding/powerlifting routine. i really miss those lifts, though. i'm working on a new program now that will involve all of these different types of lifts into one organized (and hopefully cohesive) workout. i'll let you know how it goes. also, i've got to say, your posts are one of the only reasons i read this board and frequent this site. good evening, sir.

 

[musketeer]

Look like you've got yr answers but just to add:

Power exercises like cleans are as much about skill and improving the affectiveness of the nerves that innervate the muscles - causing them to contract quickly. By training a power exercise when tired, you are only training your body to explode with submaximal power and therefore you are training it to do an explosive mavemnt less explosively which is the opposite of what you are trying to acheieve.

Most atheletes train a strength cycle - stuff like squats and benches - first in order to build up the weight they can handle, and then closer to competition train their expolsive (sport specific) movements in a power cycle.

3 weeks BREAK IN PERIOD
10 weeks STRENGTH CYCLE
6 weeks POWER CYCLE
COMPETE

 

[joe shumsky]

thank you for your input, gentlemen. i now know what i must do.