Post Cycle Recovery Plan - Can't we all agree?

[Riker29]

The issues:

When we look at the various things we can take as part of a post-cycle regimen, it seems to come down to:

HCG
Clomid
Novaldex
Arimidex (i.e. Liquidex)

And various supplements which some people recommend including everything from Tribulus, Zinc, L-Arginine, Avena Sativa, etc

It amazes me with these available, and with as much info is available, and with the collective expertise and experience on this board, that we cannot agree to a "standard" post-cycle regimen which works best.


For example:

I have heard EXTREMELY different plans for how to use HCG for example.

Clomid seem to be a standard, but I read something (William Llewellyn) where he discusses and makes a GREAT case for using Novaldex instead...

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/magazine/i6clomid.html

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/magazine/i7postcycle.html

And of course, we now see that Liquidex is found to be a great additon to a post-cycle plan.



Lets strike a good balance between the "armchairs chemists" who love to quote studies, and those who have also used various things in the real world. Lets use BOTH types of info (meaning dont be a dick and just paste in some study, or be a dick and just say "I do this" as if what you stumbled upon is THE way).

Lets make this happen.




So, let's intelligently discuss and create the best "Standard Post-Cycle Recovery Plan"?

I think this would specifically address:

HCG - How to use it, when, how much, how long.

Clomid or Novaldex - For once and for all, which is best? And when to take, for how long, how much, etc.?

Arimidex/Liquidex - Most people are in agreement that this is to be included. So, when, how much, how long, etc.?

Other supplements - Which ones to use and in what way?

 

[sk*]

Clomid/nolva/hcg/aromasin. Proviron a couple weeks before cycle ends, nolva a week before cycle ends and past 3weeks later. Switch to fast acting esters towards the end.

-sk

 

[Riker29]

I am surprised we arent having more discussion on this.

Come on guys, this is something that could really help a lot of peopl if we hashed this out.

 

[Lift Chief]

I am surprised we arent having more discussion on this.

Come on guys, this is something that could really help a lot of peopl if we hashed this out.

We can't agree because everyone has their own opinions and personal experiences on what works best... i doubt we could ever got a concensus on the absolute best post cycle approach.

I'd just use HCG if you've been on for a long time or are taking a lot of gear... along with clomid and some estrogen inhibitor....

If you're not on a big or long cycle you'll be good with clomid/nolva and an estrogen inhibitor...

Tribulus and zinc and all that are basically unproven.

 

[Johnny Cut]

i say arim/ldex post cycle just for the sake of supressing the estrogen further, i would say to run it longer then anything else, i found that it works great while returning test levels back to normal

 

[me2dammit]

well

I'm with the clomid to get test back up, studies have shown it works in most cases in 10-14 days run it the usual 3 weeks or longer if you were on longer, while you are waiting for that to kick in use ECA or CLen to help with catabolism and also alot more protein.

Also creatine should help. And remember train to maintain. not grow. There is a difference.

I would venture to say most people mess up on the training part when coming off, second would be diet.

I know with tren if you make it past the first 2 weeks you are in there.

 

[BrickGirl]

Not everyone has the same "problem". Some have atrophied testicles, others do not, some have high prolactin, others do not, some have.......

 

[sk*]

Not everyone has the same "problem". Some have atrophied testicles, others do not, some have high prolactin, others do not, some have.......

One thing for sure, around 50% of the population will NEVER get testicular atrophy on ANY steroid.

-sk

 

[Nelson Montana]

The only way there can be a standard program that everyone follows is if everyone followed the same cycle.

One of my problems with Clomid -- besides the fact that it has a negitive reaction in a lot of people -- is that it is used excessively when it isn't really needed. One may decide to use it "just to be safe" but if it kills your libido, playing it "safe" wasn't so smart.

HCG is great if you've been on for a long time, but once again, its overused. And the body builds a tolerance to HCG rather quickly which is why some people will swear it doesn't do much after a while. Excellant drug though, if used correctly.

Liquidex and Arimidex are good if you take superphysiological dosages (competitors) and are prone to gyno.

I feel that Proviron is too often overlooked and will serve the needs of 99% of the people who use steroids, but there are plenty of people who will argue with that.

Even substances like DIM and Calcium D Glucarate are overlooked as estrogen blockers/removers.

A lot of this stuff is fashionable too. Something comes out and everyone swears by it. In a year or two, it's gone.

So basically, this is area which will spark much debate for some time to come. And that's part of the fun. Access the information. Learn as many different points of view as possible. Experiement, but play it safe. And in time you'll hopefully come to the right conclusion.


And you'll realize CLOMID BLOWS! : )

(Had to get that in.)

 

[Paulos]

Nelson does Proviron cause hairloss at all?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Proviron is DHT which has been related to hair loss but I think it's overstated.

You have two choices: Either increase DHT and maybe accelerate the loss of hair (which you'd lose anyway) and increase the chance of BPH (which is treatable) or have no dick and grow boobs.

I'll take the first option thank you.

 

[sk*]

Temporary libido problems are the LEAST of my worries when it comes to AAS. I have no problem with having a limp noodle for a few weeks, as long as I am "safe" in the long run. That's just me though ...

-sk

 

[Paulos]

Fuck it then I might as well run Test with Spiro.

 

[sk*]

I think the perfect recovery program depends on what your cycle was.
If you've done EQ/Fina/anavar/winny you don't need the strong estrogen suppression of arimidex; I'd use proviron (maybe nolva) there or nothing.
If I do a test/dbol cycle (which I wouldn't) I'd want arimidex all the way.

Very true.

-sk

 

[jubei]

Developing a "standard" for post cycle recovery is not possible for a number of reasons. It is similar to trying to create a medication to cure sick people. It depends on a number of variables, some of the following are included below as an example.

1. Drugs work differently on different people. Some people could have a bad reaction to clomid for example(which is garbage in my opinion anyways)

2. People use different substances for varying periods of time, and that is another factor that has to be taken into account.

3. Users of steroids will not all develop the same side-effects, and will there for require different medications to combat these effects.

4. Some substances like liquidex, and HCG can be quite expensive, and or difficult to obtain. Luckily I can get just about everything because I have a good source, but not everybody does.

The following would be my choice.

Nolvadex 10 mg every day starting week 3 until 3 weeks post cycle.
HCG 2500 IU x 4 shots every 5 days immediatly following a cycle
Clenbuteral 1 mg per day following a cycle for 6 weeks
Tribulus used for 8 weeks post cycle

 

[Riker29]

I think that despite many differences in cycles, and personal responses,

It seems that after a cycle, everyone is starting from a very similar place:

1) We are starting our post-cycle plan after all the extra "stuff" has left or been metabolized from our systems (i.e., we have waited the appropriate times based upon whish esters were used), and

2) Our HTPA is shut down, the natural test production is close to zero,

3) We have not damaged our natural CAPABILITY to produce test (meaning we have not been on SO long as to produce damage, and really, our body WOULD naturally start test production again, after a while, we are just trying to recover HTPA and Test production ASAP)

4) We wish to do what it takes to also keep as many gains as possible.


Despite the differences in what people may have been taking, despite individual’s various sensitivities to specific substances, frankly all of the points above place most people, post-cycle, in very similar situations.

That’s why I suggested that we work at a gopod "standard" plan. As much as we WANT to all be unique, when you strip things down, the fact seems to be that for most guys, their "situation" post cycle (as outlined above) is quite similar.

Just look at the Clomid vs Novaldex issue. Sure, Clomid is the standard, but frankly I have seen a VERY good case for using Novaldex instead. Now to say “each guy must deternine for himself” is kinda obvious, yeah, sure, that would be GREAT. The problem is (again) if someone is going to do just 1 or 2 cycles, then this suggestion of someone “experimenting: on himself is hardly a good suggestion (studies with n=1 or 2 have hardly any meaning, LOL).

Look at HCG as well – the suggestion for how much to take, when to take it, how often to take it – are SO different as to be laughable. You mean to tell me that with ALL of the expertise, we cant have a standard regimen that will help most guys “kick start” themselves post-cycle, and have HCG assist with that, in the best manner possible?

Again, yeah, someone will say “but we cannot optimize things for each person, each person is unique”. Yeah, we KNOW that. I just don’t think its THAT hard for us to discuss and come to a sort of “standard” plan, which will work for 80% of guys. I mean, lets face it, more than 80% of guys are exactly in the scenario I spelled out in the 4 points above.

So, I was just thinking that will all of this knowledge and expertise, and personal experiences, we could really really settle this.

Its certainly a better use of our time than to see people whining about their chicks messing with their heads, or their Mom finding their gear, which we see too much of on some boards. LOL

Anyway, I figured I would give this subject a shot, and se if we could at least standardize this one area of discussion. If we could resolve it, it would make a great hall-of-fame type post.

 

[Nelson Montana]

You want something that will work for everyone? You got it. Follow my program and you won't get so depressed that you need anti-e's.

Unfortunetely, there will always be people who will agrue. They'll insist they make great geains otherwise (although they never can keep them). They insist that "finas the shit" (even though it causes impotence). They insist that CLomid works great (even if it takes up to 6 months to work).

All can say is this. I've designed programs for dozens of people and they'll ALL made gains and NONE of them got gyno.

But then again they'll always be the guy who never tries it, yet he insists....

 

[BigAndy69]

Too many people are looking at post cycle drugs and are not paying attention to the drugs they use in there cycles.

Some drugs are harsher on your system. They are harder to bounce back from. Fina is not an easy drug to come off of, compared to Anavar

Longer cycles are best for me, if you do it right. Too many people run long cycles like short cycle (Full dose through the full cycle)

So, Tren should be at the beginning of your cycle no longer than 6 weeks

Long esters should also be in the early portion of a cycle.

A proper cycle in my opinion should start strong ie

W1-8, Test Enanthate 750mg
W1-6, Tren 50mg ED
W1-10, EQ 500mg

W9-12 Prop 150mg EOD (525mg a week)

By the time you've hit W12-13, most drugs are out of your system.

Too many people use Anavar to bulk up or cut...the truth is there are better uses for anavar.

W10-14 Anavar 30-40mg ED

Anavar has minimal impact on your system and it provides great CNS stimulation (strenght) which is a great jump at the end of a cycle to help you keep your gains.

So post cycle:

Clen/Clomid is essential in addition to a low dose of anti aromatase like 0.25mg of arimidex.

I can't stress enough how important Clen is Post cycle:

---Keeps the intensity up at the gym (some people see strengh gains)
---Allows you too eat more food without worry of bodyfat levels.
---Mood enhancer (if used correctly)
---Enhances Natural Test levels somewhat and has nutrient partionning abilities.

 

[jubei]

Riker, props for starting this thread. Alot of good ideas presented.

 

[Riker29]

Shameless self-interested bumpage