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Post-Cycle Help Is Here

Nelson Montana

Chairman of Board
Chairman Member
Okay, I've been bombarded with e-mails about this, so I figured I'd just post this for anyone who's interested.

The free T formula (Avenacosides, Muara Puama, Nettles, Xanthoparmilia, etc) "Unleashed" and the "Post-Cycle" formula (Maca, Chrysin, Milk Thistle, Cndium, etc) are now available. But they're only taking phone orders. 1-800-343-1803

Judging from the prototype, the quality is top notch and the price is comparable to BAC without the capping hassle. They also have a pro-thyroid product called ZIP! which looks like it would make a nice stack with "Thermorexin". I'd be curious to hear everyone's experiences.
 
i'll be giving these products a try after my primo/dbol "steroids for health" cycle. what's the price on these?

jkerry
 
These look very promising. I like the fact that you can buy this stuff in one stop without having to buy each compound seperately. Are you behind the Zip formula also?

One last thing ... is there anything in these formulas that will prevent them from coming to Canada?

Thanks,'
Mavy
 
panerai said:
Are they better then HCG/Clomid/Proviron combo?


Better than Proviron? No.

Better than HCG? Certainly not as dramatic but of course, HCG is suppressive. These products are meant to support the HPTA.

Better than Clomid? Yes.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Okay, I've been bombarded with e-mails about this, so I figured I'd just post this for anyone who's interested.

The free T formula (Avenacosides, Muara Puama, Nettles, Xanthoparmilia, etc) "Unleashed" and the "Post-Cycle" formula (Maca, Chrysin, Milk Thistle, Cndium, etc) are now available. But they're only taking phone orders. 1-800-343-1803

Judging from the prototype, the quality is top notch and the price is comparable to BAC without the capping hassle. They also have a pro-thyroid product called ZIP! which looks like it would make a nice stack with "Thermorexin". I'd be curious to hear everyone's experiences.

Is this one pill that contains all of that? Or is this a separate product for each herb sort of deal? I was very interested in buying Avena from BAC before.
 
Nelson, how much are these products currently going for? I went to the site, and saw no mention of price. I was also curious as to how much you would recommend daily of each. Thank you for spilling the beans on these new products. :)
 
damn a couple of weeks back i ordered a ton of BAC products. should have waited. i still gotta pill them up and shit.

This is really cool though man, thank you
 
bicepts. The BAC stff is cool --essentially the same raw ingredients, (they both use top shelf stuff) but yeah, the capping's a drag.

C3: They said definetely under 30 bucks for a 90 cap bottle. (Probably $29.95) I haven't seen any "pill" product that cheap in a long time. Tribex is like seventy bucks. 6OXO is sixty dollers for a two week supply. Fucking thieves.

XXbignip: I think the dosage is two caps. In the case of Unleashed that's 500 mgs of avena. Considering it has a bunch of other stuff, that's a good dosage. But I may double anyway. I'm greedy when it comes to my hardon happiness. :)
 
Thats an unreal price! So, would you now recommend those 2, along with lets say a zma of sorts for post cycle therapy? Also would you use the unleashed during a cycle as well? It seems like it would be a smart thing to do.

I want to stay far away from clomid. The one time I tried it, I was very depressed. I was crying over nothing sometimes, and felt down. I barely wanted to get up, let alone train and eat.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Okay, I've been bombarded with e-mails about this, so I figured I'd just post this for anyone who's interested.

The free T formula (Avenacosides, Muara Puama, Nettles, Xanthoparmilia, etc) "Unleashed" and the "Post-Cycle" formula (Maca, Chrysin, Milk Thistle, Cndium, etc) are now available. But they're only taking phone orders. 1-800-343-1803

Judging from the prototype, the quality is top notch and the price is comparable to BAC without the capping hassle. They also have a pro-thyroid product called ZIP! which looks like it would make a nice stack with "Thermorexin". I'd be curious to hear everyone's experiences.

I wonder how this combo would fare for hpta recovery after a heavier 8-12 week androgen-based cycle?? This may work fine with your short-cycle theory but I'm somewhat skeptical about relying on these products alone after a longer cycle.

We all know how much you hate clomid and I'm not particularly a big fan of it either especially after this last debacle but there really is no other better "proven" alternative. These products may very well be good supplements to take in conjunction with HCG and Anti-e's but to recommend that someone take this "post-cycle formula" in lieu of clomid, Nolva and HCG for post-cycle therapy is irresponsible advice IMO unless you post up some concrete evidence that clearly shows this formula speeding up the hpta recovery process.
 
Juice, I'm going to give you karma for that. Instead of starting up a flame fest, you actually added something valuble to the thread, and asked some honest questions.

With that, I'll ask you a question as well. A lot of people are starting to rely on nolva for post cycle therapy. Are you in that group? If so, how has it worked for you, and at what dosages.
 
C3bodybuilding said:
Juice, I'm going to give you karma for that. Instead of starting up a flame fest, you actually added something valuble to the thread, and asked some honest questions.

With that, I'll ask you a question as well. A lot of people are starting to rely on nolva for post cycle therapy. Are you in that group? If so, how has it worked for you, and at what dosages.


Actually I am and here's why...I also posted this on another thread and I believe the information is credible. I plan on taking both Nolva and Clomid together post-cycle.

Ideal of course would be to run some prov or Arimidex the last week of a cycle and the first week after a cycle to kickstart your Nolva therapy, but its not necessary at all. Far more important in bringing natural test back is HCG. NOw that's why Nolva is so important as well, HCG will form estrogen in manners other than by aromatase, which arimidex or Prov cannot block, but Nolva or clomid can ...

Clomid and Nolva are essentially similar compounds. Both triphenylethylenes, both muild estrogens and both substrates for the estrogen receptor, not the aromatase enzyme.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?threadid=113118&highlight=Sane+Cycle

The choice of a Tamoxifen/clomiphene/spironolactone combination

The choice for a tamoxifen/Clomiphene combo is primarily because of two factors. Only one relevant study (1) came up as far as recovery after a stack of products (testosterone and nandrolone) was used for twelve weeks, utilized HCG and both clomiphene and tamoxifen to achieve a complete recovery of the HPTA to acceptable levels in 45 days. The second reason is the raging war over which is the better post-cycle drug, clomiphene or tamoxifen has lead to several conclusions. The first is that while 150 mg of clomiphene and 20 mg of tamoxifen have lead to roughly a similar increase in LH levels (17) , but that with the high dosing of clomiphene over time there are certain disadvantages. Such as that it may damage eyesight and may act as a weak estrogen (18) in undesirable places (like the pituitary). So using tamoxifen alongside it will allow us to lower the dose and decrease the chance of these side-effects and add the distinct benefit that Tamoxifen (being the stronger of the two) will prevent the clomiphene from exerting any much influence at the pituitary, and that it will increase LH responsiveness to GnRH (17) where Clomiphene does not. Clomiphene is still used as it seems to offer other advantages, such as an increase in SHBG (19), which may seem like a bad thing at first, but which may decrease androgen-related negative feedback and may thus be in our advantage.

Regardless of the final outcome I feel I have settled the dispute, at least in my own head. Why bother figuring it out when we can use both, limit any negative effects and reap the proven benefits of full recovery ? I used to run tamoxifen slightly less long than clomiphene, but given the suppressive effects of the latter at the pituitary, I later decided it wiser to continue running tamoxifen as long as the clomiphene.
 
C3bodybuilding said:
With that, I'll ask you a question as well. A lot of people are starting to rely on nolva for post cycle therapy. Are you in that group? If so, how has it worked for you, and at what dosages.

Ideally you want both your anti-estrogen treatment and your HCG to start near the beginning of your last week.

Week 1-10 : cycle

Week 10,11,12 : HCG, but try a less frequent pattern. Some people react better to a less frequent dosing, others to more frequent dosing. Instead of 500 ed, I plan to go for 1500IU's every 3 days, or 3000/3000/1500/1500 every 5 days

Then I'm going to start the Nolva week 10 at a steady 20 mg and continue to run it until I come off the clomid. Nolva offers the distinct advantage of sensitizing LH response to GnRH.

I'll start the clomid at a dose of 150 mg for weeks 12 and 13, then lower it to 100 for weeks 14 and 15.
 
Avenacosides...A, B, or both? how many milligrams is it? this is the active ingredient of Avena Sativa, that def. sounds interesting. Nelson, you've personally tried the Free T product? Man that sounds like some serious morning wood fuel! :D
 
For long (over 12 week) cycles I always recommend HCG. But realize, HCG desensitizes leydig cells, so in a way it's suppessive. Sooner or later your HPTA has to take over on its own and that's where the supps can help. But nothing works as well "cosmetically as HCG since it fills your balls up, if needed.

If you're doing a high androgen cycle and are prone to gyno, I'd say keep some proviron or a-dex on hand, just in case. But you may not need it.

Juice, you gotta let go of line of thought that Clomid is "proven". I don't want this to turn into another Clomid thread but the research on Clomid is very scketchy and as you found out yourself, the shit didn't work for you. (Welcome to the club) Clomid is not an aromatase inhibitor and that's the problem. For some, it just increases estrogen, as too many bros have found out when they wind up crying at the end of episodes of "Sex In The City."

C3: "Post-Cycle" also has milk thistle and r-ala and lecithin for you liver, plus maca and epimedium for libido and cndium for erectile function so there's lots of stuff beyond the estrogen managment you can use. It also has 15 mgs of zinc so you wont need ZMA. Too much zinc is worse than too little.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Juice, you gotta let go of line of thought that Clomid is "proven". I don't want this to turn into another Clomid thread but the research on Clomid is very scketchy and as you found out yourself, the shit didn't work for you. (Welcome to the club) Clomid is not an aromatase inhibitor and that's the problem. For some, it just increases estrogen, as too many bros have found out when they wind up crying at the end of episodes of "Sex In The City."

Nelson -

I crashed because I used too much gear over an extended period of time. End of story. Yes, clomid has some fucked up side effects (i.e. depression, decreased libido, blurred vision, etc..) but it does work for hpta recovery. Are there better alternatives? Well, Nolva will at least reduce the amount of clomid you need to take post-cycle and HCG will better prepare the testis for clomid therapy but there hasn't been anything introduced today that clearly shows a rise in circulating LH levels, an increase in testosterone and estradiol levels and an increase in FSH levels as clomid.
 
Nelson -

Here are some studies you may not have seen that conclusively prove my point...(I haven't posted these before)...

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1985 Nov;61(5):842-5

Evidence for a role of endogenous estrogen in the hypothalamic control of gonadotropin secretion in men.

Winters SJ, Troen P.

To examine the mechanism by which endogenous estrogens inhibit gonadotropin secretion in men, blood samples were drawn every 10 min for 12 h in five men before and at the completion of 3 weeks of treatment with the estrogen antagonist clomiphene citrate (50 mg twice daily). Samples were analyzed for LH and alpha-subunit by RIA. Clomiphene produced a 3-fold rise in circulating LH levels, which was associated with a 80% increase in pulse frequency and a 70% increase in pulse amplitude. Immunoreactive alpha-subunit secretion was also pulsatile before and after clomiphene treatment. Mean alpha-levels rose 70%, together with a 39% increase in pulse frequency and a 41% increase in pulse amplitude. Circulating testosterone and estradiol levels increased 2-fold and FSH levels increased 3-fold after clomiphene treatment. Insofar as each LH and uncombined alpha-subunit pulse reflects a LHRH secretory episode, our data indicate that endogenous estrogens tonically restrain the hypothalamic release of LHRH. From these results and those of previous studies, we conclude that estrogens as well as androgens are important in the testicular feedback inhibition of the hypothalamic oscillator that governs pulsatile gonadotropin secretion.


J Androl 1991 Jul-Aug;12(4):258-63

The effects of normal aging on the response of the pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic clomiphene administration in men.

Tenover JS, Bremner WJ.

Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle.

Serum androgens decline with age in normal men, despite normal or elevated bioactive serum gonadotropins, suggesting that primary testicular dysfunction occurs with aging. The authors further assessed the question of age-related testicular dysfunction by evaluating whether raising serum gonadotropins above the normal serum range for an extended time in healthy elderly men might result in bringing their gonadal function to a level similar to that found in young adult men. Five elderly (65 to 85 years old) and five young adult men (26 to 33 years old) were given 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) twice a day for 8 weeks to stimulate gonadotropin production. During that time, testosterone (T), non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound T, and estradiol increased significantly in both age groups, while serum inhibin increased significantly only in the young adult men. The increases in serum androgens with CC administration were significantly greater in the young adult men than in the elderly men. These hormone changes occurred in the setting of serum gonadotropins that increased significantly in both age groups, although there was a tendency for the elderly men to have a smaller increase in luteinizing hormone. Despite 8 weeks of stimulation of the pituitary-gonadal axis by CC administration, the elderly men demonstrated significantly diminished testicular responses compared with the young adult men. Sertoli cell function, as determined by inhibin production, was more diminished in the elderly men than was Leydig cell function. These data strengthen the hypothesis that normal aging in men is accompanied by a decline in testicular function.


Urology 1991 Oct;38(4):317-22

Possible hypothalamic impotence. Male counterpart to hypothalamic amenorrhea?

Guay AT, Bansal S, Hodge MB.

Section of Endocrinology, Lahey Clinic Medical Center, Burlington, Massachusetts.

Twenty-one men with erectile complaints who were found to have a low level of serum testosterone without a reciprocal elevation of the serum levels of luteinizing hormone were evaluated to identify whether the defect was of hypothalamic or of pituitary origin. Patients underwent a luteinizing hormone (LH)-follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH)-releasing hormone stimulation test that showed a normal but sluggish increase in LH and FSH levels, thus ruling out a pituitary defect and suggesting a suprapituitary abnormality. This was confirmed when, in response to clomiphene, patients had a normal increase in gonadotropin and testosterone levels. Although the basal as well as clomiphene and gonadotropin releasing hormone-stimulated levels of total testosterone and gonadotropins were identical in men less than and more than fifty years old, the elevation of free testosterone levels in response to clomiphene was higher in patients younger than fifty. This suggested that although the primary abnormality found in these patients is altered secretion of gonadotropin hormone-releasing hormone from the hypothalamus, an age-related decline in the responsivity of Leydig cells to LH may make it more manifest in older patients. Elevation of testosterone levels from a subnormal to a normal range in response to clomiphene administered for seven days suggests that the defect is functional and reversible and that the drug may be useful in treatment of sexual dysfunction in this group of patients.
Nephron 1993;63(4):390-4

Effect of clomiphene citrate on hormonal profile in male hemodialysis and kidney transplant patients.

Martin-Malo A, Benito P, Castillo D, Espinosa M, Burdiel LG, Perez R, Aljama P.

Department of Nephrology, Hospital Universitario Reina Sofia, Cordoba, Spain.

The aim of this study was to evaluate the role of clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in the hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis of male uremic subjects. Thirty-four patients on hemodialysis (HD) and 8 successful kidney transplant subjects (RT) were evaluated. Nine healthy males were used as controls (C). At baseline, zinc, testosterone (TEST), prolactin (PRL), FSH, LH and estradiol plasma concentrations were measured. All subjects were treated with CC (100 mg/day) for a week. The aforementioned parameters were determined again on the seventh day of CC therapy, and 3 days after drug withdrawal. Following CC, there was a rise in FSH, LH and TEST levels in all subjects (p < 0.05); it is interesting to stress that TEST became normal in HD. In addition, we observed a decrease of PRL after CC only in HD patients (p < 0.01). In summary, CC was able to partially correct most of the hormonal disturbances of the gonadal axis in uremic patients.
 
Juice Authority said:
Nelson -

Here are some studies you may not have seen that conclusively prove my point...(I haven't posted these before)...

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1985 Nov;61(5):842-5

Evidence for a role of endogenous estrogen in the hypothalamic control of gonadotropin secretion in men.

Winters SJ, Troen P.

To examine the mechanism by which endogenous estrogens inhibit gonadotropin secretion in men, blood samples were drawn every 10 min for 12 h in five men before and at the completion of 3 weeks of treatment with the estrogen antagonist clomiphene citrate (50 mg twice daily). Samples were analyzed for LH and alpha-subunit by RIA. Clomiphene produced a 3-fold rise in circulating LH levels, which was associated with a 80% increase in pulse frequency and a 70% increase in pulse amplitude. Immunoreactive alpha-subunit secretion was also pulsatile before and after clomiphene treatment. Mean alpha-levels rose 70%, together with a 39% increase in pulse frequency and a 41% increase in pulse amplitude. Circulating testosterone and estradiol levels increased 2-fold and FSH levels increased 3-fold after clomiphene treatment. Insofar as each LH and uncombined alpha-subunit pulse reflects a LHRH secretory episode, our data indicate that endogenous estrogens tonically restrain the hypothalamic release of LHRH. From these results and those of previous studies, we conclude that estrogens as well as androgens are important in the testicular feedback inhibition of the hypothalamic oscillator that governs pulsatile gonadotropin secretion.


J Androl 1991 Jul-Aug;12(4):258-63

The effects of normal aging on the response of the pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic clomiphene administration in men.

Tenover JS, Bremner WJ.

Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle.

Serum androgens decline with age in normal men, despite normal or elevated bioactive serum gonadotropins, suggesting that primary testicular dysfunction occurs with aging. The authors further assessed the question of age-related testicular dysfunction by evaluating whether raising serum gonadotropins above the normal serum range for an extended time in healthy elderly men might result in bringing their gonadal function to a level similar to that found in young adult men. Five elderly (65 to 85 years old) and five young adult men (26 to 33 years old) were given 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) twice a day for 8 weeks to stimulate gonadotropin production. During that time, testosterone (T), non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound T, and estradiol increased significantly in both age groups, while serum inhibin increased significantly only in the young adult men. The increases in serum androgens with CC administration were significantly greater in the young adult men than in the elderly men. These hormone changes occurred in the setting of serum gonadotropins that increased significantly in both age groups, although there was a tendency for the elderly men to have a smaller increase in luteinizing hormone. Despite 8 weeks of stimulation of the pituitary-gonadal axis by CC administration, the elderly men demonstrated significantly diminished testicular responses compared with the young adult men. Sertoli cell function, as determined by inhibin production, was more diminished in the elderly men than was Leydig cell function. These data strengthen the hypothesis that normal aging in men is accompanied by a decline in testicular function.


Urology 1991 Oct;38(4):317-22

Possible hypothalamic impotence. Male counterpart to hypothalamic amenorrhea?

Guay AT, Bansal S, Hodge MB.

Section of Endocrinology, Lahey Clinic Medical Center, Burlington, Massachusetts.

Twenty-one men with erectile complaints who were found to have a low level of serum testosterone without a reciprocal elevation of the serum levels of luteinizing hormone were evaluated to identify whether the defect was of hypothalamic or of pituitary origin. Patients underwent a luteinizing hormone (LH)-follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH)-releasing hormone stimulation test that showed a normal but sluggish increase in LH and FSH levels, thus ruling out a pituitary defect and suggesting a suprapituitary abnormality. This was confirmed when, in response to clomiphene, patients had a normal increase in gonadotropin and testosterone levels. Although the basal as well as clomiphene and gonadotropin releasing hormone-stimulated levels of total testosterone and gonadotropins were identical in men less than and more than fifty years old, the elevation of free testosterone levels in response to clomiphene was higher in patients younger than fifty. This suggested that although the primary abnormality found in these patients is altered secretion of gonadotropin hormone-releasing hormone from the hypothalamus, an age-related decline in the responsivity of Leydig cells to LH may make it more manifest in older patients. Elevation of testosterone levels from a subnormal to a normal range in response to clomiphene administered for seven days suggests that the defect is functional and reversible and that the drug may be useful in treatment of sexual dysfunction in this group of patients.
Nephron 1993;63(4):390-4

Effect of clomiphene citrate on hormonal profile in male hemodialysis and kidney transplant patients.

Martin-Malo A, Benito P, Castillo D, Espinosa M, Burdiel LG, Perez R, Aljama P.

Department of Nephrology, Hospital Universitario Reina Sofia, Cordoba, Spain.

The aim of this study was to evaluate the role of clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in the hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis of male uremic subjects. Thirty-four patients on hemodialysis (HD) and 8 successful kidney transplant subjects (RT) were evaluated. Nine healthy males were used as controls (C). At baseline, zinc, testosterone (TEST), prolactin (PRL), FSH, LH and estradiol plasma concentrations were measured. All subjects were treated with CC (100 mg/day) for a week. The aforementioned parameters were determined again on the seventh day of CC therapy, and 3 days after drug withdrawal. Following CC, there was a rise in FSH, LH and TEST levels in all subjects (p < 0.05); it is interesting to stress that TEST became normal in HD. In addition, we observed a decrease of PRL after CC only in HD patients (p < 0.01). In summary, CC was able to partially correct most of the hormonal disturbances of the gonadal axis in uremic patients.


Oh PLEASE...I asked
you not to turn this into another Clomid thread.

For the gazillionth time....these tests are sketchy, but it doesn't matter if you posted fifty studies. It doesn't work on me. It doesn't work on you. And it doesn't work on a lot of people. For those it does work on...hooray! But there are better choices these days considering all the nasty sides. Please let it go bro. Please.

40butpumpin: Both Avenacosides A&B. And yes, I tried a prototype sample and it did the trick.
 
Last edited:
Bump for the weekday crowd.

For more info, go to "News" on the front page. After the basic descriptions go to "Articles" for ingredients, references, etc.

The price is $29.95 for each. (Buying the ingredients seperately in comparable dosages would cost twice as much.)

www.proteinfactory.com
 
kbrkbr said:
Juice, thanks for the article.

I had been looking for that exact one.

Apparently in Nelson's mind these studies are meaningless. He won't even address them. :rolleyes:
 
Juice Authority said:


Apparently in Nelson's mind these studies are meaningless. He won't even address them. :rolleyes:


Aah, come on Juice, what are you trying to prove? I just didnt want this to become another Clomid thread -- but okay, I'll play.

I'm not sure why you keep trying to insist on how effective Clomid is, when you yourself experienced negitive sides from it. What's the point? Who cares? If it doesn't work for you, do you really care what a study says? But again, I'll play along.

Did you read where in that study wher Clomid raised estradiol lvels? Any comment on that? It's what I've been saying all along.

The other study doesn't even give any numbers. It just says it was higher.


The last study was done on patients with kidney damage which is very fishy to me.

Bottom line: If it works for you, great. But it doesn't work on me and it doesn't work for a lot of people and it's a sure fire dick killer so why use it when there are better options?

If a study suggests that shit tastes good, that doesn't mean I'm having it for supper.
 
u guys really need to bang...........:) there is alot of sexual frustration here
 
Nelson Montana said:

If a study suggests that shit tastes good, that doesn't mean I'm having it for supper.

ROFLMAO... I am making that quote part of my signature... damn that is funny...
 
Nelson Montana said:



Aah, come on Juice, what are you trying to prove? I just didnt want this to become another Clomid thread -- but okay, I'll play.

I'm not sure why you keep trying to insist on how effective Clomid is, when you yourself experienced negitive sides from it. What's the point? Who cares? If it doesn't work for you, do you really care what a study says? But again, I'll play along.

Did you read where in that study wher Clomid raised estradiol lvels? Any comment on that? It's what I've been saying all along.

The other study doesn't even give any numbers. It just says it was higher.


The last study was done on patients with kidney damage which is very fishy to me.

Bottom line: If it works for you, great. But it doesn't work on me and it doesn't work for a lot of people and it's a sure fire dick killer so why use it when there are better options?

If a study suggests that shit tastes good, that doesn't mean I'm having it for supper.

Ok, that was good. Your commentary put a smile on my face and that's all that matters. :D
 
Nelson Montana said:



If it doesn't work for you, do you really care what a study says?

so why use it when there are better options?

I think these are the 2 most important things that he said.

All Nelson is trying to prove everytime this comes up is, clomid works for some people, some it doesnt. If it works for you then good for you use it. If the side are too heavey for you like are me(Nelson) then i have some other alternatives. Simple as that.
 
would it be worthwhile to use these products even if you don't juice? would any of the ingredients in either have detrimental effects if used continuously for long periods of time?

it seems to me that unleashed may be worthwhile to use all the time, but I know little about the effects of xanthoparmilia in the long term. Post cycle seems like it may not be a good choice for continuous use due to the calcium d-glucarate and chrysin lowering estrogen levels. wouldn't there eventually be some compensation for this? and with the cnidium, any ill-effects with that?

any info is appreciated
 
young guns said:
would it be worthwhile to use these products even if you don't juice? would any of the ingredients in either have detrimental effects if used continuously for long periods of time?

it seems to me that unleashed may be worthwhile to use all the time, but I know little about the effects of xanthoparmilia in the long term. Post cycle seems like it may not be a good choice for continuous use due to the calcium d-glucarate and chrysin lowering estrogen levels. wouldn't there eventually be some compensation for this? and with the cnidium, any ill-effects with that?

any info is appreciated



The products were designed to be used by either natural or enhanced athletes. That's the beauty of it. I see them as the ANTI pro-homones, in that PH's cause suppression but the ingredients in Unleashed enhances natural T levels and Post-Cycle balances e, plus aids in libido and liver detoxification -- more important to the guy on gear, but useful to anyone.

The thing about natural substances is they'll only work to a point -- which is good and bad. They won't make you huge, but they'll enhance what you have without going too far off he chart. That's why your e can't get TOO low. Or, regretably, your T won't get as high as it can from a cycle. But more T is better, no matter where your levels currently are.
 
Nelson,

I am very excited about thse products and their potential - I hope they work out well for you and everyone involved AND for the customers.

Questions for you -

Have you taken the time to really write up what each is used for, their doseage, the length of time, etc.

For some reason I have not seen that formally written out. I mean, not in a ad-hoc manner as in earlier in this thread. I mean something formal (and ..... not marketing hype, please), like,

  • What it's used for
  • What it does
  • What is the dose or how do you determine the dose (age, weight, status, some other criteria, etc)
  • How long do you take it
  • Any other requirements (fluids, supplements etc)
  • How is it taken (with fluids, with meals, throughout the day, in the mornming, it does not matter, etc)
    [/list=a]
 
Riker29 said:
Nelson,

I am very excited about thse products and their potential - I hope they work out well for you and everyone involved AND for the customers.

Questions for you -

Have you taken the time to really write up what each is used for, their doseage, the length of time, etc.

For some reason I have not seen that formally written out. I mean, not in a ad-hoc manner as in earlier in this thread. I mean something formal (and ..... not marketing hype, please), like,

  • What it's used for
  • What it does
  • What is the dose or how do you determine the dose (age, weight, status, some other criteria, etc)
  • How long do you take it
  • Any other requirements (fluids, supplements etc)
  • How is it taken (with fluids, with meals, throughout the day, in the mornming, it does not matter, etc)
    [/list=a]






  • Riker, The info on the site gives some pretty good technical data. Go on "News" and then at the bottom of the description click on "Articles" Nevertheless, I'll try and answer some of your questions.

    1: Unleashed in for lowering SHBG. If you're unfamiliar with that, it's a whole big ta-do. We can start another thread on it.

    2:Post-Cycle has stuff to lower e, boost libido, improve erectile strength, and detoxify the liver. Most of the ingredients are things a lot of members already use, but it's in one shot.

    3: The dose is 2 caps a day, but I think most guys will want to double that. Since it's non supressive you ca take as much s you want to make sure you "feel" it, but I'd be careful with the Post-Cycle because t contains Cndium and that shit is like Cialis.

    4: Take it as long as you want. It's a popular gimmick for supplement companies to recommend "cycling off" but that's all just bullshit to make the product look more "serious." Lots of guys here have been using avena sativa non stop with no down regulation. I stopped using it for a while, thinking it wasn't doing much anymore and I regretted t. I could really feel the difference when "on" as opposed to "off."

    The product ZIP! actually works better the more you use it sinse it's a non suppressive thyroid support supplement. (It could and should be used if you're on T4 or T3) It'll give you energy and help burn fat but it won't get you wired. It can be mixed with Thermorexin or anotherstimulent which although I've yet to try on a long term basis, I believe will work really well.

    5: I don't think it matters if you take it with or without food. I'd be curious if any members noticed a difference taking avena on an empty stomach. I recommend splitting the dosage -- one serving in the morning and the another before bed. (But don't take the ZIP! before bed or you might be looking at the ceiling all night).
 
Nelson Montana said:



Better than Proviron? No.

Better than HCG? Certainly not as dramatic but of course, HCG is suppressive. These products are meant to support the HPTA.

Better than Clomid? Yes.

Proviron doesn't do anything to help restoring HPTA, Clomid does.
I don't understand your logic.
 
panerai said:


Proviron doesn't do anything to help restoring HPTA, Clomid does.
I don't understand your logic.

This is very true. In fact, Proviron, if taken post cycle could actually hinder HPTA recovery.
 
Juice Authority said:


This is very true. In fact, Proviron, if taken post cycle could actually hinder HPTA recovery.

Not a fact. I've seen many studies showing that Proviron doesn't effect HPTA.
 
I never said that Proviron restores HPTA -- just that it removes estrogen and lowers SHBG. HCG doesn't restore HPTA either and even the studies on Clomid are sketchy in regard to HPTA restoration (most " recovery" took weeks -- which would happen in most cases anyway) but it's a moot point if you experience all the negitive sides of Clomid. At any rate, I don't want to turn this into yet another CLomid debate. I believe the only thing that truly helps recovery is time. All ancilliary assistance , be it pharmaceutical or natural, only helps to ease the crash for the most part.

The evidence for most herbs in anecdotal, but quite convincing nontheless. Realize that there aren't too many organizations willing to spend hudreds of thousands of dollars on studies for something that may or my not prove benificial to bodybuilders. (There aren't even many studies on the use of anabolics for enhancement purposes. That doesn't mean they don't work) That's why you see so many "University Studies" as references in supplement ads. Basically, a supplement company can pay some college kids to do some tests and make "conclusions" in their favor. Neverthless, there have been some controlled studies on the ingredients mentioned and the feedback is impressive. On the "Articles" page for "Unleashed" , "Post-Cycle" and ZIP! there are about 10 references each regarding studies on the effectiveness of the ingredients if you want to read them.
 
panerai said:


Not a fact. I've seen many studies showing that Proviron doesn't effect HPTA.

Never said it was a fact. I said it "could" hinder HPTA recovery.
 
Proviron is slightly suppressive, but the good outweighs the bad in certain cases if it's used correctly.
 
"I'm not sure why you keep trying to insist on how effective Clomid is, when you yourself experienced negitive sides from it."

Since when did negative sides=ineffectiveness??? Just asking
 
KOArtist said:
"I'm not sure why you keep trying to insist on how effective Clomid is, when you yourself experienced negitive sides from it."

Since when did negative sides=ineffectiveness??? Just asking

in this case it does. the purpose of clomid is recovery of natural test production - to restore the HPTA. in order to do this, the body needs to increase it's test production while lowering the heightened levels of estrogen that result from the cycle. in some, clomid has cause depression, gyno, ect. - all estrogenic sides. this is an indication that in some people clomid acts as an estrogen and is not an anti-estrogen. so, it's ineffective in that even if it does get test going again by increasing LH, it's still not solving the estrogen problem. and even if it does act as an anti-estrogen and does not cause any negative sides, it's still not completely effective because anti-estrogens only bind receptor sites, therefore they don't decrease levels of estrogen, only how much estrogen binds to the receptors. as the HPTA is restored, estrogen will level out as test returns to normal, but as nelson said, this is the result of time, and not clomid. aromatase inhibitors are the only thing that will decrease circulating estrogen, but my understanding is that they alone aren't the recovery answer either.
 
5: I don't think it matters if you take it with or without food. I'd be curious if any members noticed a difference taking avena on an empty stomach.

Nelson, I have taken Avena on an empty stomach on a regular basis...I can not tell if there is any difference than taken with food. I can honestly say theat I have not noticed much effects from it at all...I usually always have morning wood when I am not taking it. But I thought I would give it a shot anyway just as I will be trying out the "Post Cycle" product that you have brought to our attention. I think I will also give the "Zip" a shot because I am getting less and less sleep from T-rex. I am having to take one cap in the morning an no more..If I go with more, then I am up sweating and pissing all night long.
 
Gold: Your free T may already be optimal, in which case I'd imagine the effect of avena would be less noticeable. (You used a good avena like BAC at a gram a day?)

The ZIP! will give you more energy but honestly, it won't get you as jacked as T-rex. I noticed a more "clear" focus as opposed to that ultra "awake" feeling. (If that makes sense) It's more of a thyroid support supplement which provides slow, steady fat burning over time. It's great for people who can't deal with strong thermogenics like T-Rex but it can also be used in conjunction with T-Rex for a double fat burning effect -- one stimulates and suppresses appitite, and the other that amps the thyroid.
 
Just wanted to pass along an update from Alex at PF.com

The orders for "Unleashed" and "Post-Cycle" have exceeded their initial stock, which in itself experienced a slight hold up due to the blackout. The line should be in within a week and hopefully everyone will get their stuff soon afterward depending on when it was placed. So basically, it's a "first come - first serve" situation until manufacturing gets up to speed.
 
Just wanted to bump this so I can get some experiences before my cycle ends in a few weeks. Sounds like a sweet product.

Alex's marketing, on the other hand, leaves to be desired.
 
DaMan said:
Just wanted to bump this so I can get some experiences before my cycle ends in a few weeks. Sounds like a sweet product.

Alex's marketing, on the other hand, leaves to be desired.

The reason they're backed up is probably due to all those people who have viewed this particular thread and subsequently ordered - Not! If that were the case Alex would owe Nelson a nice little kickback, which I'm sure Nelson is getting. The statement that it's on a "first come - first serve" basis is straight out of Marketing 101 and total BS. He's just trying to create more demand for the product by saying there's a supply shortage. What a kook! Manufacturing can't keep up with demand! LOL! I hate it when supplement companies try to pull this shit. I was actually thinking about ordering it but not now.

Nelson - why are you affliated this type of person? His motives are very transparent and if anything will end up backfiring.
 
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Juice Authority said:


The reason they're backed up is probably due to all those people who have viewed this particular thread and subsequently ordered - Not! If that were the case Alex would owe Nelson a nice little kickback, which I'm sure Nelson is getting. The statement that it's on a "first come - first serve" basis is straight out of Marketing 101 and total BS. He's just trying to create more demand for the product by saying there's a supply shortage. What a kook! Manufacturing can't keep up with demand! LOL! I hate it when supplement companies try to pull this shit. I was actually thinking about ordering it but not now.

Nelson - why are you affliated this type of person? His motives are very transparent and if anything will end up backfiring.


Juice, you're being paranoid. I just felt bad for the people who ordered who may have to wait a little longer, that's all. Believe me, I'm sure PF would be glad to get everything out ASAP. But when a company starts a new line it's common not to have an excess of stock of the new product. I'm sure within a week or so, they'll have a better idea of meeting supply with the demand.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Juice, you're being paranoid. I just felt bad for the people who ordered who may have to wait a little longer, that's all. Believe me, I'm sure PF would be glad to get everything out ASAP. But when a company starts a new line it's common not to have an excess of stock of the new product. I'm sure within a week or so, they'll have a better idea of meeting supply with the demand.

Maybe so and if I'm wrong about this I'll be the first to openly apologize but I don't buy it for a minute. You never see Ulter posting something like that about one of the products from the AF Store. It looks and smells like a sales gimmick in an attempt to create demand for the product. If the product works like it's advertised to work then it will sell itself.
 
Juice, by now everybody understands that you just don't like Nelson. Give it a rest and just let us assume you object to whatever he says from now on.
This is getting old. Just ignore each other before I have to ignore both of you.
:)
 
Telling people they'll have to wait a little longer is a sales gimmick? Okay, I understand your scepticism. But again, unlike the AF store, it's a new line for PF.

But you''re right. Once people become aware of a product, if it's good , it'll sell itself. And I know that'll be the case here because the ingedients have already proven themselves as effective. Unleashed and Post Cycle are essentially two convenient formulas of proven ingredients at a good price.
 
Dial_tone said:
Juice, by now everybody understands that you just don't like Nelson. Give it a rest and just let us assume you object to whatever he says from now on.
This is getting old. Just ignore each other before I have to ignore both of you.
:)

Where do you get that???? Nelson and I don't have a problem anymore. It's been resolved. Chill out Bro. I've never had a problem with you and I sure don't appreciate that comment.
 
It's cool Dialtone. JA and I have butt heads in the past but I believe he's been trying lately to at least make any opposition he may have in a civil manner. And he has a right to be suspecious.

Bottom line on the supps. If they're good, it's dumb not to use them. If they suck, all the promo in the world won't matter to the educated bodybuilder. Again, since I , clients of mine , and a lot of bros on this board have used the ingredients seperately with great results, I have all the confidence in the world that people are going to be happy with them.
 
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