Please critique my squat

[Guinness5.0]

I posted this vid in my journal but I want to get as many opinions as possible:
http://media.putfile.com/ATF325x5

Specifically, I'm wondering whether the rounding/hip shift at the bottom is something I should be concerned about, and whether the bar should be over my heels more (pause the vid when I'm at the bottom - the bar is directly above my toes). Feel free to bring up any other points that you see as relevant.

Thanks for any help!

 

[Chambewy20]

In my opinion, these are easy oly squats, what are you wanting to do?

Your shoses are oly shoes too, are you thinking about converting to powerlifting or something?

Typically can't crititque actual squat techniques unless 80-90% effort and you hit these like they were 135...

 

[Chambewy20]

Looked at it again, your stance seems to narrow, knee end up of the toes and very deep, but good for oly squats...

 

[musketeer]

They look completely textbook to me - you showoffbastard!

I dont believe that it would really be possible to improve your current form, just try and maintain it throughout the progression of you next cycle - seeing as you already have it!

Saw your DL clip too. That form was also better form than mine, but I have managed a 450 for 6 (by virtue of my long arms). You are indeed stronger than I had previously pictured.

 

[super_rice]

You are indeed stronger than I had previously pictured.

Now all you need to do is actually start doing oly lifts and you're set!

 

[Guinness5.0]

In my opinion, these are easy oly squats, what are you wanting to do?

Yeah I guess it would have helped if I had been a bit more specific....

Def. going for Oly style, but I don't compete in anything - just using Olympic style squats as part of my overall program to get strong in the 'big' lifts - overhaed pressing, benching, squats, deads, rowing, etc.

Typically can't crititque actual squat techniques unless 80-90% effort and you hit these like they were 135...

Thanks for the compliment - these were tougher than they looked. But I'm intentionally going a bit light b/c my hip shift at the bottom used to be worse. Making a concerted effort to hold my low back tighter has forced me to take it easier than before.

Looked at it again, your stance seems to narrow, knee end up of the toes and very deep, but good for oly squats...

Think the knees are too far forward? I'm thinking that I need to bring everything back - hips, elbows, etc. Sound like a step in the right direction?

Thanks for the help, bro.

And BTW I'm thinking that my camera was a great investment - getting help from the boys on this board is proving to be eye-opening.

 

[Chambewy20]

Great lifts, intelligent investment for sure!!!

 

[Protobuilder]

I can't see the tips of your shoes . .. are your knees going past the tips? It kinda' looks like the might be, which I've been told isn't a good thing.

 

[Guinness5.0]

Specifically, I'm wondering whether the rounding/hip shift at the bottom is something I should be concerned about, and whether the bar should be over my heels more (pause the vid when I'm at the bottom - the bar is directly above my toes). Feel free to bring up any other points that you see as relevant.

Bump for MC2, glenn, BiggT, mekannik, CCJ, Bignate, etc. etc...
Hoping you guys could let me know if i'm just a worrier or if these are genuine concerns.

I can't see the tips of your shoes . .. are your knees going past the tips? It kinda' looks like the might be, which I've been told isn't a good thing.

It looks like they go past by a little. I think sitting back further will help it out, but I'm not sure if it's something I need to do or not - I have no knee pain (other than occasionally aggravating an old injury from getting 'bouncey' on front squats) so I'm thinking it's not too bad. But I'd like more opinions....

 

[mekannik]

Bump for MC2, glenn, BiggT, mekannik, CCJ, Bignate, etc. etc...
Hoping you guys could let me know if i'm just a worrier or if these are genuine concerns.


It looks like they go past by a little. I think sitting back further will help it out, but I'm not sure if it's something I need to do or not - I have no knee pain (other than occasionally aggravating an old injury from getting 'bouncey' on front squats) so I'm thinking it's not too bad. But I'd like more opinions....

Dear God!! A callout post and it is only January.....


From a power/strength perspective - you look good. Real good. No sticking point, smooth transitions, little/no bounce @ bottom.

I would agree that your knees are going past your toes. But what you need to ask yourself is: are your knees/quads hurting from this? does your form (i.e. extent of knees going past toes) lessen or greaten with increased load?

As mentioned earlier in the thread - look at widening your stance with the toe out position you currently utilize. This would probably help eliminate the slight amount of rounding you are seeing at the bottom of the lift. Most of the oly lifters training hall tapes I have seen show them more upright, but I have a feeling that is due to their stance width and flexibility.

Also keep in mind that should you start gettinga/want to prevent any 'knee' pain - remember to stretch your quads, hams, & calfs for 15-20 minutes at the end of the lifting session along with another day or two during the week.

 

[view]

I don't see anything wrong with that form. it probably works well for your body structure. Nice squat BTW too. I say just keep listening to your body. If it says its fine keep doing it, if not then revamp your form.

 

[cwc73]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Guinness5.0 again.

NICE

 

[JL_204]

I can honestly say I dont see anything wrong with your squat.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

There shouldn't be any sacral rotation at the bottom portion of the squat. This is what I have been told, anyway. It seems like you may be getting a little bit of that. I know you had back pain awhile ago, which is part of the reason you ran HST. Has that pain emerged again? If not, I wouldn't worry too much.

Just to be sure, though, try some 30-60 second iso. RDL holds. CCJ pointed me to them, and they work wonderful for increasing hamstring flexibility. It allows you to keep a better arch the lower you go.

Also, squatting with a slightly wider stance may help you with keeping tight with form. I've always noticed that, when I go really narrow (i.e., feet parallel) it becomes a chore to keep everything real taut.

In the end, let pain be your guide. It's good you're taking the incentive to look into it now though, lest you wind up with a back problem like me.

 

[Guinness5.0]

Has that pain emerged again? If not, I wouldn't worry too much..

It's a lot better since changing my dl/squat technique.

Just to be sure, though, try some 30-60 second iso. RDL holds. CCJ pointed me to them, and they work wonderful for increasing hamstring flexibility. It allows you to keep a better arch the lower you go.

Got a link? Is it as simple as holding a light barbell in the lowish part of the ROM? I'm definitely thinking that hamstring flexibilty is part of the issue.

 

[BiggT]

I think they look perfect.

You need to remember that the only thing an olympic squat and a powerlifting squat have in common is that they are both called squats. A shoulder-width stance is fine as long as you are acheiving depth and are comfortable. With an olympic squat, you are supposed to break at the hips, which you do, you're definitely not not falling forward, which is good. You not supposed to 'sit back' like a PlL Squat, the fact that you burry the depth means you shouldn't have knee issues. Going all the way down means the stress is transferred from the knees to the hips. With a Pl squat where you sit back, you shouldn't go ass to the floor because the wide stance will hurt the hips, cutting these off at paralell doesn't hurt the knees because the knees don't come forward due to the sitting back. With Oly squats you're NOT supposed to sit back, you simply start the movement by breaking at the hips and not falling forward, and you need to burry olympic squats to transfer the load to the hips because you don't sit back and the knees do come forward, cutting these off at parallel puts on the force on the knees. Again, oly squats and pl squats are really night and day, apples to oranges.

I hope that post made sense......basically, that is perfect olympic squat form....your knees should come forward a little due to the nature of the movement, you break at the hips, you don't fall forward, you don't bounce at the bottom, and overall it looks really good. Your back looks good and erect, no folding-in, the hips look fine to me. Don't get hung up on 'sitting back' and having the knees not come forward, that is for a Pl Squat, which has nothing to do with an olympic squat. Again, the depth transfers the stress from the knees to the hips and you will be just fine.

 

[djeclipse]

Sorry to hijack this thread but I have a squat question and don't want to spread the information around by starting a new thread.

BiggT you mention not falling forward. I am very new to squats and proper ATF squats. Yesterday while doing my last rep of my last set I did almost fall forward. When I was all the way down the weight started tomove forward and I seriously had to push off my toes to keep myself from falling forward. This was at the bottom of the squat and I had to steady myself before standing back up, it kind of scaired me a little.

I have been doing squats roughly shoulder width apart with toes facing almost forward. Should I angle my feet outward a little more? Would this help stop the weight from shifting forward?

 

[TheOak84]

i like em

 

[BiggT]

Sorry to hijack this thread but I have a squat question and don't want to spread the information around by starting a new thread.

BiggT you mention not falling forward. I am very new to squats and proper ATF squats. Yesterday while doing my last rep of my last set I did almost fall forward. When I was all the way down the weight started tomove forward and I seriously had to push off my toes to keep myself from falling forward. This was at the bottom of the squat and I had to steady myself before standing back up, it kind of scaired me a little.

I have been doing squats roughly shoulder width apart with toes facing almost forward. Should I angle my feet outward a little more? Would this help stop the weight from shifting forward?

The shifting forward of weight can be a couple different things. Angling the feet out a little more really isn't necessary unless you absolutely cannot acheive depth and your knees won't push outward, again, these are not PL-style squats, so the mental checklist for a Pl squat like 'feet out, sit back, knnes don't come forward' can be thrown out the window.

You shouldn't begin the squat by shooting the knees out and down.....the hips should break first. For your problem, I'd obviously have to see you squat to tell you exactly what's wrong, but it could be a flexibility issue. Do you have a problem getting low? It could be a core issue. Does the weight "fold you in half"?

Here is what I would do.....if your form is in check, you break at the hips, knnes come out instead of in, you're flexible enough to acheive depth, you don't bounce out of the bottom, etc...once you know HOW to do the squat, a common problem is a weak core. What I would do then is use weight that is light enough that your form doesn't break by getting folded in and do assistance work in the form of weighted, full range situps and decline situps, good mornings, back hyper extensions to strengthen your core.

But, mechanics aside, what I mean by mechanics is incorrect form like squatting by breaking at the knees and not the hips...... I'd say your problem is either a weak core, or lack of flexibility, both of which would cause you to fall forward. Remember to stay erect, these aren't the modified GMs that pass a squats in PL meets, I can't stress enough that an Oly Squat and PL Squat only have one thing in common, the fact that both are called 'squats', they really are 2 totally different movements.

:edit:

I see that you say you fell forward on the last rep.....if the rest of the set was good and the problem occured on the last rep only, I'd guess you need to bring up your core strength, and there obviously aren't any technical or flexibility issues if the rest of your reps were fine. Watch the video again, if you squat like Guiness when you use lighter weight and your problem is getting folded in half by heavy weight, causing the bar to come forward, then it is definitely a weak core that is your problem.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

I think they look perfect.

You need to remember that the only thing an olympic squat and a powerlifting squat have in common is that they are both called squats. A shoulder-width stance is fine as long as you are acheiving depth and are comfortable. With an olympic squat, you are supposed to break at the hips, which you do, you're definitely not not falling forward, which is good. You not supposed to 'sit back' like a PlL Squat, the fact that you burry the depth means you shouldn't have knee issues. Going all the way down means the stress is transferred from the knees to the hips. With a Pl squat where you sit back, you shouldn't go ass to the floor because the wide stance will hurt the hips, cutting these off at paralell doesn't hurt the knees because the knees don't come forward due to the sitting back. With Oly squats you're NOT supposed to sit back, you simply start the movement by breaking at the hips and not falling forward, and you need to burry olympic squats to transfer the load to the hips because you don't sit back and the knees do come forward, cutting these off at parallel puts on the force on the knees. Again, oly squats and pl squats are really night and day, apples to oranges.

I hope that post made sense......basically, that is perfect olympic squat form....your knees should come forward a little due to the nature of the movement, you break at the hips, you don't fall forward, you don't bounce at the bottom, and overall it looks really good. Your back looks good and erect, no folding-in, the hips look fine to me. Don't get hung up on 'sitting back' and having the knees not come forward, that is for a Pl Squat, which has nothing to do with an olympic squat. Again, the depth transfers the stress from the knees to the hips and you will be just fine.

So you think the bit of sacral rotation at the bottom is okay?

 

[djeclipse]

BiggT Thanks for the quick reply. I have been reading a lot about form on squats but I really don't know if i am actually executing them properly. How do you know if you are breaking from the hips? Not trying to be funny or anything but I just go down, it seems like the hips and knees move at the same time.

I don't sem to have a problem getting low, I actually surprise myself just how low I am able to go with the squat, I am only 5'-6" and sometimes the bar will actually tap the stops on the squat rack (they're not adjustable) when I am fully down.

My core could be week, probably my abs are week. I just started training again 2 month's ago and I probably have some week abs. I do dead lifts and really feel them in my lower back the next day. I tried doing weighted hypers on the same day as dead lifts (my back day) and my back was sore for a week so I dropped the hypers in favour of the dead lifts.

I will add weighted setups to my routine instead of regular high rep no weight sit ups. What am I looking to get for reps, sets of 10, 15? How often should I be doing them?

I did find that as I got tired the weight seemed to move me forward and with the lighter weight it didn't see to be a problem.

For form I have been waiting for someone in the gym that has the knowledge to actually help me with my squat form, but I haven't seen anyone. At the gym by my work there is a power lifter that is always there, maybe I will ask him.

I really want to get proper form on all the major lifts before I start doing the madcow2 5 x 5 intermediate program.

Thanks again.

 

[Guinness5.0]

How do you know if you are breaking from the hips?

You consciously make your hips go back first. It's not like you move your hips, then 5 seconds later your knees move - it's subtle but definitely noticeable. You'll feel it if you try.

 

[BiggT]

Anthrax,

I think the sacral rotation in this video is so slight that it really is not even an issue. He is tight and he is in control of the weight, and the rotation is really, really slight. To me, it is not an issue at all. As long as it does not get more pronounced as the weights increae it is not a problem here.

Here is how I look at lifts....I'd say that lift was 99% perfect. When adding weight to the bar and trying to get legitimately stronger, somethings will not be 100% textbook, they should be pretty close, but the only way to make something absolutely 100% is to use token weights. If you do this and get so freaked out about every little facet of a lift, you turn in to one of those dorky tecnhical lifters who never squats with more than 225, and thus makes zero progress and is small and weak for their entire lifting career. I am a stickler for form, don't get me wrong, but there is a difference between the form of say a fitness geek and somebody pushing themselves.

Guiness's form is 99% tight I would say, as far as that video, I wouldn't change it if he can keep upping the weights and keep his form basically like that without any noticable breakdown. I think if he threw on 405, the sacral rotation would be an issue, but if he keeps gradually progressing while training his core, I really don't see it as a problem, and the rewards he will get from gradually using heavier weights are much more important than being too too dorky and not going above token weights just to have 100% flawless form.

The form is good, and as long as it stays that way as the weight is upped, I don't see it as an issue.

DJeclipse....

It really sounds to me that you need to bring up your core stability. Start with decline situps and back hypers as a warmup three times a week, do the situps full-range....once you can do 3 sets of 20, I'd add weight, when you get all 3 sets of 20, add weight again. If you're training the DL, you need to train it, if all you want is core strength and good, stong erectors, I really think heavy good mornings are second to none.

 

[Protobuilder]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to BiggT again.

 

[djeclipse]

You consciously make your hips go back first. It's not like you move your hips, then 5 seconds later your knees move - it's subtle but definitely noticeable. You'll feel it if you try.

I will try doing this next time. Though it still seems like they're both moving at the sametime. I will concentrate on making my hips move first. And thanks for letting me jack this thread. I would like to make my squat look like yours, and maybe one day I can do sets of 5 with the same weight... though that day is a long ways away, lol.

BiggT, agian thanks. I can already do the 3 x20 for sit up's with no weight, I will add a 10lb weight on my chest and see how that goes. Why do you suggest doing them before a workout? I would think that doing sit up's and hypers before doing squats or deadlift, or even standing military press wouldn't be god with already tires midsection.. no? What about doing them after the workout?

 

[BiggT]

You can do them after, I like them to get the core nice and warm and ready to lift some heavy weights. With good conditioning, it won't affect your workout if you do them first.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Honestly, when I squat with a narrow stance, with my feet forward, going all the way down, it hurts my back. If I squat using more of a generic power squat, as Mark Rippetoe advocates in Starting Strength, my back feels fine.

 

[Madcow2]

The only thing I see is on the first rep notably and maybe slightly on the others - I see your right heel come up as your are coming out of the hole (maybe the left does too as the camera blocks it out). Your weight is too forward too early, and obviously you can't be driving off your heels if one of them comes off the floor. Granted this might not be indicative of your standard technique but you need to think about where the weight is on your foot and if you are driving with the heel or evenly at all, the heel should not be lifting.

 

[Cynical Simian]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to BiggT again.

Word. I'd been trying to reconcile the squatting articles/tips I'd read (some Oly, some Pl) into an odd hybrid that had me at various points between the two from workout to workout or even set to set. BiggT, I really can't thank you enough.

 

[coolcolj]

I think its not too bad for an OLy squat

sitting back a bit more to make it more like an athletic fullsquat is another option. More forward lean though, but not too bad due to the oly shoes. Oly shoes do allow you sit back more without falling over

depends on what you want to target more. I alternate between the 2, but when the weight is heavy my body just reverts to olysquats autmaticly. I tend to GM more in athletic full squats

That link to the that poliquin stretch post in my journal a few pages back can help if your heels are coming up

 

[NorgePrecision]

Your knees seem a bit forward, but that could be because of your height. That looked like textbook form to me otherwise.

 

[Madcow2]

Guiness - the PM is down right now so here's your response.

Geez, I watched that fucking vid like 50 times and didn't even notice that! Nice eye.

I have my moments . I'm really not any kind of expert in the squat or any lift for that matter but I've taught it a lot and over time you learn what to look for and watching the feet for signs of weight distribution is one of those areas you go to especially if there aren't any glaring flaws (and it is really solid otherwise, nothing at all wrong and looks smooth and strong out of the hole). Especially in OL shoes though, that heel should not be coming up. Just use the mental key of keeping the weight back and driving off the heel (up not forward). As the bar moves up the weight should become more normally distributed over the entire foot but the heel should never come up and even at the top the weight should be center or just slightly ahead. You're just loading forward too early or perhaps never getting enough back on the heel during the decent in the first place. You'll figure it out but it is important. I remember Glenn making a post somewhere about weight distribution on the foot for either the clean or snatch. I can't find it but it was included in a rather lengthy repsonse on another forum maybe. Bummer.

 

[Guinness5.0]

So are you with BiggT on the hip thing? It's not something to worry about unless it gets worse? Sorry but you didn't specifically address it and I'm a worrier

And it seems that the Oly shoes take a little getting used to - in my boots I felt like I was back on my heels more.

 

[Madcow2]

I think that's pretty minor. I could hardly pick it up. Here's a link from Midwest with Glenn and Susan Patterson discussing it a bit, you might find her tip helpful http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=749. To be honest it isn't something I'd be likely to bother with unless it gets more severe with heavier weight. It's pretty much textbook otherwise although you might try dressing with a bit more style, baggy clown pants, fannie pack, otomix, loose muscle shirt that says 'boy toy available' on the back, you know, standard stuff.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

I still feel it's losing your arch. Your ass tucking under also pulls your spine. The sacrum shouldn't rotate under. That's just me, though. If you have to stop an inch or two higher, or just make the stance wider so you can't go as low, that shouldn't be a problem. It's better than a back injury.

 

[Madcow2]

Oh I'd rather it not be there but I hardly noticed it.

 

[BiggT]

Guiness, the first time I watched I didn't notice the heels coming up, the heels on the o-lifting shoes may have made it seem not too noticeable, but I have to admitt I missed it. I agree with Madcow on that, it is something you cannot do.....the good thing is I find that is easy to correct, next time, consciously plaster those heels into the ground and don't let them come up, this shouldn't require much work to fix because you'll feel much stronger with the heels firmly planted and will just do it naturally from that point.

Again, I truly feel the rotation thing is so minor it isn't worth worrying about. Here is a good example of the textbook form that makes you a geeky technical lifter and the solid form that allows you to push yourself. Watch Brad Gillingham or Benedict Magnusson deadlift, they have excellent, tight form, but if you really want to nitpick, you can find flaws and breakdowns. These 'flaws' so to speak are not pronounced and will not foster an injury and are just natural bodily adjustments when straining. Next, watch John Basedow in "Fitness made Simple" lol.....you cannot find one flaw in ANYTHING he does, he is a dorky technical lifter who is weak. I just feel that the rotation in your video is minor and will not cause problems so long as it doesn't get more dramatic as you up the weight, I think it won't be a problem and you can safely and worry free continue to get stronger......rather than freak out about every minor little thing, and thus stay the same strength while banging your head off the wall.

I do want to add, you're doing a hell of a job. The journal is looking good and the #'s are really moving.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

True, biggt, but he also is using a weight that's very easy for him. If there's flaws now, we don't know how it could look higher up. I wouldn't put the lower back at risk like that ever - it's not worth it, to me. I have an injury, and now I know what it's like. I'm glad, too. It's a real eye-opener.

I'd say, if you can't get that deep without tucking the sacrum, you're going too far. Spread the stance out a little, angle the feet, get a bit more flexible, or stop a bit higher up.