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In this journal 4ad elevated estradiol but not sure fro how long & if it ever returned to normal (baseline) levels? nandi12 over at cuttingedgemuscle.com says in the FULL journal it didnt return to baseline!? would test have the same result?
androstenedione reached peak @ 120 min
free & total test @ 60 min
estradiol @ 180 min (this is hanging around alot longer than the others & when does it return to baseline? if it ever does?)
also woule test patch or test gel have similar results?
J Appl Physiol 2002 Jan;92(1):142-6 (ISSN: 8750-7587)
Brown GA; Martini ER; Roberts BS; Vukovich MD; King DS
Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory, Department of Health and Human Performance, Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa 50011, USA.
The effectiveness of orally ingested androstenediol in raising serum testosterone concentrations may be limited because of hepatic breakdown of the ingested androgens. Because androstenediol administered sublingually with cyclodextrin bypasses first-pass hepatic catabolism, we evaluated the acute hormonal response to sublingual cyclodextrin androstenediol supplement in young men. Eight men (22.9 +/- 1.2 yr) experienced in strength training consumed either 20 mg androstenediol in a sublingual cyclodextrin tablet (Sl Diol) or placebo (Pl) separated by at least 1 wk in a randomized, double-blind, crossover manner. Blood samples were collected before supplementation and at 30-min intervals for 3 h after supplementation. Serum hormone concentrations did not change with Pl. Serum androstenedione concentrations were increased (P < 0.05) above baseline (11.2 +/- 1.1 nmol/l) with Sl Diol from 60 to 180 min after intake and reached a peak concentration of 25.2 +/- 2.9 nmol/l at 120 min. Serum free testosterone concentrations were increased from 86.2 +/- 9.1 pmol/l with Sl Diol from 30 to 180 min and reached a peak concentration of 175.4 +/- 12.2 pmol/l at 60 min. Serum total testosterone concentrations increased above basal (25.6 +/- 2.3 nmol/l) from 30 to 180 min with Sl Diol and reached a peak concentration of 47.9 + 2.9 nmol/l at 60 min. Serum estradiol concentrations were elevated (P < 0.05) above baseline (0.08 +/- 0.01 nmol/l) from 30 to 180 min with Sl Diol and reached 0.14 +/- 0.02 nmol/l at 180 min. These data indicate that sublingual cyclodextrin androstenediol intake increases serum androstenedione, free testosterone, total testosterone, and estradiol concentrations
I told nandi that nasal spray 4ad means less estrogenic effects (than oral) He said:
I don't see any basis for assuming that. In fact androstenediol may be more estrogenic than test. The diol ends up being converted to dione and test, and androstenedione is a more effective substrate for aromatase than is testosterone. Oral, nasal, sublingual, whatever, once the diol is in your bloodstream your estradiol levels will rise.
If you have access to a library, read that entire second paper whose abstract you posted. Test peaked one hour after administration but even though it was elevated above baseline, it was back into the normal range < 40 nmol/L after 150 min. Estradiol was still climbing steeply when the study ended at 180 min. So it's not clear at all when estradiol would return to baseline.
There is also no evidence that transient increases in blood testosterone increase muscle mass or strength.
I'm not a believer in prohormones. I tried oral and sublingual diol and neither did anything for me.
trying to figure out if 4ad nasal spray or test patch,gel would be better for:
1. do not want to inject.
2. looking for a slight exogen source of test.
...thought 4ad would be good cause of idea that it is less estrogenic than test, in & out with nasal spray-all day levels might give one anxiety& insomnia increases. nasal spray hits you fast for that psychoactive training boost.
please no flames just positive, educational posts.
thanx!
androstenedione reached peak @ 120 min
free & total test @ 60 min
estradiol @ 180 min (this is hanging around alot longer than the others & when does it return to baseline? if it ever does?)
also woule test patch or test gel have similar results?
J Appl Physiol 2002 Jan;92(1):142-6 (ISSN: 8750-7587)
Brown GA; Martini ER; Roberts BS; Vukovich MD; King DS
Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory, Department of Health and Human Performance, Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa 50011, USA.
The effectiveness of orally ingested androstenediol in raising serum testosterone concentrations may be limited because of hepatic breakdown of the ingested androgens. Because androstenediol administered sublingually with cyclodextrin bypasses first-pass hepatic catabolism, we evaluated the acute hormonal response to sublingual cyclodextrin androstenediol supplement in young men. Eight men (22.9 +/- 1.2 yr) experienced in strength training consumed either 20 mg androstenediol in a sublingual cyclodextrin tablet (Sl Diol) or placebo (Pl) separated by at least 1 wk in a randomized, double-blind, crossover manner. Blood samples were collected before supplementation and at 30-min intervals for 3 h after supplementation. Serum hormone concentrations did not change with Pl. Serum androstenedione concentrations were increased (P < 0.05) above baseline (11.2 +/- 1.1 nmol/l) with Sl Diol from 60 to 180 min after intake and reached a peak concentration of 25.2 +/- 2.9 nmol/l at 120 min. Serum free testosterone concentrations were increased from 86.2 +/- 9.1 pmol/l with Sl Diol from 30 to 180 min and reached a peak concentration of 175.4 +/- 12.2 pmol/l at 60 min. Serum total testosterone concentrations increased above basal (25.6 +/- 2.3 nmol/l) from 30 to 180 min with Sl Diol and reached a peak concentration of 47.9 + 2.9 nmol/l at 60 min. Serum estradiol concentrations were elevated (P < 0.05) above baseline (0.08 +/- 0.01 nmol/l) from 30 to 180 min with Sl Diol and reached 0.14 +/- 0.02 nmol/l at 180 min. These data indicate that sublingual cyclodextrin androstenediol intake increases serum androstenedione, free testosterone, total testosterone, and estradiol concentrations
I told nandi that nasal spray 4ad means less estrogenic effects (than oral) He said:
I don't see any basis for assuming that. In fact androstenediol may be more estrogenic than test. The diol ends up being converted to dione and test, and androstenedione is a more effective substrate for aromatase than is testosterone. Oral, nasal, sublingual, whatever, once the diol is in your bloodstream your estradiol levels will rise.
If you have access to a library, read that entire second paper whose abstract you posted. Test peaked one hour after administration but even though it was elevated above baseline, it was back into the normal range < 40 nmol/L after 150 min. Estradiol was still climbing steeply when the study ended at 180 min. So it's not clear at all when estradiol would return to baseline.
There is also no evidence that transient increases in blood testosterone increase muscle mass or strength.
I'm not a believer in prohormones. I tried oral and sublingual diol and neither did anything for me.
trying to figure out if 4ad nasal spray or test patch,gel would be better for:
1. do not want to inject.
2. looking for a slight exogen source of test.
...thought 4ad would be good cause of idea that it is less estrogenic than test, in & out with nasal spray-all day levels might give one anxiety& insomnia increases. nasal spray hits you fast for that psychoactive training boost.
please no flames just positive, educational posts.
thanx!
