OVT and GVT

[JKurz1]

No.....I haven't switched routines, however my gym has been closed so I trained with a good friend of mine who competes a few times a year and he swears by OVT.....it's like German Volume although instead of 10x10, it's 5x5.....tried it two days ago with him on Chest and then yesterday with Delts...stupid to do those back to back, but all in all, it was a pretty freaking humbling experience....135 on incline press 5 of 5 felt like 410 around rep 4 of sets 4 and 5....it's the 6 sec down 2 up that gets ya, plus supersetts with flys, same method....anyone train this way? Results?

 

[Protobuilder]

It's the magic program.

 

[BiggT]

Anything that is centered around progressive increases on select lifts will garner progress.....super slow reps and super setting big lifts with iso stuff aren't responsible for any progress, all they do is make a lift harder. A 700lb squatter could only handle 135 if you made him run a marathon before squats, that's not gonna help him.......making a lift unnecessarily hard to the point where load/stimulus is compromised won't grow you.....using good, solid form and gradually getting better at the lift will grow you.

In bodybuilding in this day and age, which is UNFORTUNATELY the source of most people's training info. the word 'intensity' is grossly misused and misapplied and misunderstood.....intensity is tangible, it is load, it is a percentage of 1RM, it isn't some sort of perveiced effort or some abstract feeling of how hard one 'thinks' they are working.

 

[JKurz1]

Sort of lost me...so its NOT a good routine for producing mass? I mean yesterday, I had to use 135 on incline for 5 of 5 because of the rep tempo...6-0-2....then superset with flys......when normally I may go to 185 for a few on a split rouitne....that what you mean? stick to the old 10,8,8, etc?

 

[Tweakle]

sounds good, but be sure to only do it for a couple of weeks before switching to something else.. that way your muscles will be as confused as I am when I try to figure out the benefits of the OCD training system.

 

[BiggT]

Jeff, push the numbers....you can use every trick in the book to make 135 feel heavy, it's not heavy and it won't build an ounce of muscle no matter what.

 

[curgeo]

Rep cadence to me is over-rated. I think people make too big a deal of it. My feeling is that to recruit as many TypeII fibers as possible, you should explode every rep on the concentric (positive) part. Most of the muscle soreness comes from the negative and yes it does help a little with strength and size, but in my opinion, not enough to warrant extra time taken to accentuate it. If you are trying to get stronger only, the key is to get faster which means to use controlled speed on the eccentric and the concentric end. If the goal is hypertrophy, use a weight within 65-85 percent of your one rep max on the the main lifts....this will equal enough TUT and also enough weight to stimulate hypertrophy.

5x5 is something else as it takes into account dual factors of recovery and compensation. My good friend madcow has a great geocity site and some fantastic posts on it to get more info on it. I really believe that his contributions are the best ever on this site in terms of training and the explaination of it.

 

[Tweakle]

I'm thinking that tension is over-rated too.. my current training has me doing a bunch of single reps with 5 secs pause between reps to let all the fatigue poisions dissipate, that way I can move more weight for more reps and more total time under tension. And best of all there's no hitting failure, so the CNS doesnt get toasted as it might with multiple sets with the same weight

No pump or burn so some people wouldnt think it works, but getting 12-15 reps with a 5RM hurts the next day enough to make you know you did something

 

[curgeo]

Yup. There are a helluva lot of powerlifters that are massive that could care less about how much TUT they are doing. It is different than bodybuilding because doing the pause reps that you are now doing....like you said..no soreness, but you are getting stronger.

My training partner always likes to tell me that speed is king. I was really slow for a long time due to bodybuilding for so many years and we decided to take a couple of workouts and actually practice dropping the weights fast on the eccentric part to get the stretch reflex working and to also help speed me up.

For bodybuilding and hypertrophy, TUT is important, but for powerlifting or athletes I really don't see too many uses.

 

[Madcow2]

I have a decent piece on my site for TUT. Pretty much as long as it is correlated to workload it is solid (very simply it takes more time to do more work). Also a lot of BBers are after hypertrophy and more than strength so you bring in more sarcoplasmic effect.

The main issue is that once you really get down to it TUT falls appart very dependably. They might as well just use workload but bound it with some kind of intensity/volume constraints (or just common sense but that's qualitative and exceedingly rare for a lot of people). So while it's a decent variable and can be helpful, never use it in isolation or consider it as a determinant. The determinant is still workload first and foremost. If TUT was the primary determinant it would have to be a lot more robust and you can break this variable so easily in a variety of ways.

Workload and TUT (Time Under Tension):



First TUT - don't get caught up in this. TUT is not the stimulus or causality - it just sort of falls out correlated under normal conditions. If it was causality, it would matter in all conditions. Case in point, you need to get a decent amount of mechanical work in for hypertrophy (i.e. the microtrauma thing) or perform a given number of reps with a weight heavy enough (intensity) to do the job. There's an inherent balance in there. Flat out, the more you do, the more microtrauma you get (pretty much, I guess it could get ridiculous at some point but the relationship is fairly linear for all practical purposes). So stimulus for a given training session = workload (sets X reps X weight). It just might not be the best idea for consistent progress to arrange your training with a single massive day and then curl up in a ball for a week paying for it. So thinking about this - how does TUT fit in? Real simple, it flat out takes more time to do more work. This is why TUT is correlated. If TUT was the causality though (not workload), super slow reps would be great all the time, or less reps but same amount of total time. Well once you get extreme like that TUT falls apart because you break it away from workload (basically you aren't doing more mechanical work for microtrauma, you are doing less work more slowly). It's not all that simple but that's the big chunk. Also, if you are interested in getting strong (and you had damn well better be by now if you read this page) using maximal force results in maximal concentric contraction and bar speed - this is not a negative aspect, it is very positive even though the affect on the TUT calculation is negative (workload is still equal though, bar speed is increased so time is decreased). So workload is king, don't distort TUT. TUT looks good largely because it's correlated with workload and a lot of the big TUT guys are low volume guys with some kind of ideology so the last thing they want to hear is about workload of which volume (total number of reps or sets x reps) is the major component as intensity/weight on the bar has to stay in fairly fixed bounds for resistance training.

 

[BiggT]

I still think a course on what TUT actually is and how to actually apply it correctly (using volume/workload) should be prerequisite for any gym membership, lol. Also, they should just call it total workload manipulated by intensity and volume where intensity id % of 1RM, not a ridiculous concept of perceived effort, lol......because whenever I see "TUT" I want to go into a blind rage due to all the retardation behind the generally accepted meaning.

 

[Cynical Simian]

So that hammer curl rep I've been doing since last Tuesday isn't going to get me big?

 

[Madcow2]

I still think a course on what TUT actually is and how to actually apply it correctly (using volume/workload) should be prerequisite for any gym membership, lol. Also, they should just call it total workload manipulated by intensity and volume where intensity id % of 1RM, not a ridiculous concept of perceived effort, lol......because whenever I see "TUT" I want to go into a blind rage due to all the retardation behind the generally accepted meaning.

Honestly, if you are going to measure time and are familiar with the real definitions of intensity and volume (together being workload) - you just use density and that gives you a bunch of info relating to work over a period of time. Measuring time could be a workout, an exercise (i.e. first through last set), a single set, a week etc...You can use that in a variety of ways.

Of course, the main problem is that most people using TUT don't have a clue and consider it an "end all be all" which is what kills them, they also tend to be low volume philosophical adherents so they are all about making a set or fixed number of sets harder since they tend to be philosophically self constrained in frequency, volume and intensity (i.e. number of sets and rep range and also fixed frequency). They just don't have anything else besides cadence and swapping around exercises. That right there is about the best way of locking yourself into a plateau of mediocrity.

 

[BiggT]

I agree.....also, what kills people is their idea of 'intensity'. Instead of thinking of intensity correctly (load relative to 1RM), they think of it as an intangible/abstract concept of how hard they're working or think they're working.....ie (supersets, dropsets, triple blast sets, forced reps et all are NOT ways of upping intensity).

Again, you hit the nail on the head with TUT, we need a slogan, lol...like "TUT: It's not time on the clock".

 

[Tweakle]

"TUT: It's for people who don't want to get too big"

I never understood why anyone would want to maximise fatigue at the expense of building strength, its not like lactic acid is anabolic. Anyone remember the 'metabolic conditioning' crap thrown around by Jones and later Cyberpump's resident clownshoes? that special form of strength that didn't translate into bigger lifts, or bigger muscles.


TOT (TOtalTonnage, cute huh?) done over a reasonable number of sets would be a better approach but people are so dogmatic...

 

[curgeo]

I feel better now that we have all vented on TUT. I am glad I am not alone on my way of thinking about this.

 

[JKurz1]

I agree with all of your posts, but my goal is to look good naked or on stage versus strength.....Are we saying that this routine is trash and should never be used? Is it benefitial in any way? I've used it with him this week and am finding that I am truly blasted and worn after it's over...I've been going heavier on all the 5x5 and concentrating on the form and speed, but not nec. the 6-0-2 count...so it's like 5x5, just a little lighter and more controled tempo...also it's 5x5 for 4 excercises, rather than one and two at 3x8......I was going to try this for legs today, you tell me if I shouldnt.....

A1. Front squat 5 5 201 None
A2. Step-ups 5 5 602 120 seconds
B1. Natural glute-ham raise 5 5 201 None
B2. Leg curl 5 5 602 120 seconds
C1. Sumo deadlift 5 5 201 None
C2. Romanian deadlift 5 5 602 120 seconds

 

[JKurz1]

a's a superseted b's...c's...

 

[BiggT]

Strength and muscle are related. When you get out of the extreme end of strength when you're dealing with neural work, getting stronger grows muscle. The body responds to increasing workload over time. You progressively use more weight to provide a greater stimulus for growth.

Physiologically, no other argument for methods to acheive hypertrophy make sense. They are better than not training at all, and with enough anabolics their stimulus goes from crappy to more than sufficient, but still, the logic behind them falls apart.

 

[JKurz1]

thats what this is doing bro...u are adding 5lbs a week....5x5 seems like the perfet mass stimulator.....

 

[BiggT]

You do progress, which is correct, but the supersets and slow reps limit load and that holds back progress. Just adding weight to the bar without all the added crap to make the lift harder yields faster gains. In 6 months, you'll either be squatting 315x5 or 245x5 with super slow reps supersetted with leg curls.....your legs will be bigger with a 315x5 squat than with a 245x5 squat.

 

[JKurz1]

A1. Front squat 5 5 201 None
A2. Step-ups 5 5 602 120 seconds
B1. Natural glute-ham raise 5 5 201 None
B2. Leg curl 5 5 602 120 seconds
C1. Sumo deadlift 5 5 201 None
C2. Romanian deadlift 5 5 602 120 seconds


still a solid routine, provided I keep the weights hevy........

 

[BiggT]

Anything with a plan for progression and a system of constants/variables is solid training. I am telling you that your quads will get bigger fastest by moving your front squat from 200x5 to 300x5 the fastest way possible, not by making the lift 1000 times harder than it needs to be by supersetting step-ups......

With physique-related goals, I don't know why you'd do Sumo DLs....they are, in my opinion, a 'leverage trick' to maximize weight lifted by shortening range of motion. Conventional deads provide more bang for your buck in terms of development......and supersetting anything with deadlifts is a poor idea. DLs overload the body with an enormous stimulus.

Basically, I wouldn't compromise load, load is king, that is your stimulus for growth. Paying somebody to bash in your knees with a crow bar before you squat will limit load and make them harder and slow progress too, but would you do that? lol

 

[silver_shadow]

OMFG, deads super setted? i'd be trashed in no time. BTW, jeff, i've tried GVT, not bothering about rep tempos (or whatever they are called). all i did was keep weights low, and maintain roughly 1 min interval between sets. if you get 10x10, progress the next week. i've run it for a 6 week block, but it's not something i'd recommend (and i don't think poliquin does either) for much longer, or even multiple times a year. it's more something that you'd do for muscle conditioning once a year, followed by lowered volume.

 

[JKurz1]

Ive been trying it with the OVT style of 5x5.....I'm telling you, laugh all you want....it's intense.....I've been going heavier and with less concern over rep speed, just concentrating on good form....so it's more or less 5x5 for 4 exercises a bodypart supersetted

 

[ErikZ]

Jeff, push the numbers....you can use every trick in the book to make 135 feel heavy, it's not heavy and it won't build an ounce of muscle no matter what.

So true.
I feel that today, people work towards what they feel is heavy, not what is really heavy... They put all their effort in making that 50lbs benchpress look tremendously tough, instead of actually adding weight

Btw Jeff, I did not write this directed to you man. I admire your will to improve and I wish you the best of luck. With teachers like BiggT and the gang here, we are all in good hands

 

[JKurz1]

Dbell Bench 5x5
Flat Dbell Flys 3x8
Incline Barbell Bench 5x5
Incline Flys 3x8
Decline Bench 5x5
Dips 3x8

 

[Protobuilder]

Where are the crossovers to burn out the hardest to reach fibers?

 

[JKurz1]

As far as TUT (Time Under Tension) goes, think of a sprinters calf's and leg's. Muscular & powerful looking. Extreme tension/force for a relative short distance. Than compare those leg's/calf's with a long distance runner. TUT is one of many well respected method for increasing hypertrophy.

A SS will fall with-in the class of TUT

 

[Tweakle]

you realise that there's no slow and controlled negative during a sprint, though?

 

[JKurz1]

good point.......

 

[Tweakle]

.....and that a sprint also lasts about 11 seconds?

 

[BiggT]

Also, distance running is aerobic and long bouts of aerobic activity are catabolic. And, Sprinting is an anaerobic activity, and sprinters at the college level and beyond train in the weightroom very similarly to throwers with lots of explosive strength training, the only difference being they are smaller and lighter than throwers due to not eating their way off the track.

The body only knows load, and it is stimulated to grow by increased load. Any argument for TUT in terms of time on a clock the muscles are under tension falls apart immediately at a physiological level, it also falls apart immediately in practice when it's idiocy isn't masked by gallons upon gallons of test and gh and 'slin.

 

[BiggT]

Jeff, look at it practically. You were 250-ish with good bodyfat. That is bigger and leaner than any TUTer or HITer or Super Slow rep guy I can think of. I also know a thing or two about 1990's college ball drug cycles, lol, something like 2 d-bols a day for the 1st week pyramided to 6 a day on the final week, then tapered back down, and occasionally either Omnadren or Sustanon at 250mg a week for 8 weeks (brings back fond memories of 'redijects' from trips to Cancun).....basically, it wasn't ungodly amounts of drugs.......so you got great results training either naturally or moderately enhanced with good old fashioned strength training.......

Why all the debate about nonsense??? You know what to do and have done it before.....so just simply do it and don't get influenced by every little thing some guy at the gym says or you read in some rag, or some 175 pound 'monster' on a discussion board warns you about regarding getting "fat" and training for strength and not size.

 

[Madcow2]

TUT is one of many well respected method for increasing hypertrophy.

No it's not. TUT only works when it is correlated to workload, in any other instance it goes to total crap.

Perform 3 reps with light enough weight to get your TUT target - absolute shit, horrible, will do nothing not enough volume.

Perform 3x10 or 5x5 with 30% 1RM weight with a cadence to get your TUT target - absolute shit not enough tension/weight/intensity( in the %1RM definition).

In both of those instances (and actually there are more), TUT goes in the toilet.

Workload = volume X intensity.

Workload includes the necessary parameters to make for a robust model where TUT does not. Workload is not perfect, equal tonnage calaculations done with 50% vs. 80% weights are by no means equal, but even with this significant weakness the model still absolutely beats the living dog shit with sprinkes and fruit topping out of TUT used in isolation. And guess what, once you remove TUT from isolation and start factoring in logical volume and intensity (workload) what do you get....density as your time variable which has always been there.

TUT can be useful in some circumstances but honestly it is useless as a "method", can cause some MASSIVE FUNDAMENTAL erros in programming at the most basic level when used as a "method" in isolation, and people would be a whole lot better off ignoring it totally or at least getting a proper understanding of workload components down and cemented into their brain first.

 

[Madcow2]

1990's college ball drug cycles, lol, something like 2 d-bols a day for the 1st week pyramided to 6 a day on the final week, then tapered back down, and occasionally either Omnadren or Sustanon at 250mg a week for 8 weeks (brings back fond memories of 'redijects' from trips to Cancun).....basically, it wasn't ungodly amounts of drugs.......so you got great results training either naturally or moderately enhanced with good old fashioned strength training.......

It's funny, you talk to most of the 180lbs monster guys, they will tell you that dbol by itself will result in no muscle, all water, and you lose all your gains. And yet since the 1950s people have been using that same basic pyramid with no PCT at all to gain very significant size and strength, and then holding the vast majority of their gains - all with "good old fashioned strength training" pushing a limited number of basic lifts up over time.

Human physiology has not changed - the only secret ingredient is decent training. This is why a lot of guys wind up on drugs, because they don't know how to train, and this is why a lot of guys stay on drugs cycling on and off, because their training is so bad they can't retain muscle over the long term even with HPTA recovered. A lot of guys would do well plugging this massive drain before trying to fill it with all kinds of exotic chemicals, cycling schemes, and supplements - otherwise all they are doing is covering up for a major leak that was 90% of the problem in the first place.

 

[BiggT]

It's funny, you talk to most of the 180lbs monster guys, they will tell you that dbol by itself will result in no muscle, all water, and you lose all your gains. And yet since the 1950s people have been using that same basic pyramid with no PCT at all to gain very significant size and strength, and then holding the vast majority of their gains - all with "good old fashioned strength training" pushing a limited number of basic lifts up over time.

Human physiology has not changed - the only secret ingredient is decent training. This is why a lot of guys wind up on drugs, because they don't know how to train, and this is why a lot of guys stay on drugs cycling on and off, because their training is so bad they can't retain muscle over the long term even with HPTA recovered. A lot of guys would do well plugging this massive drain before trying to fill it with all kinds of exotic chemicals, cycling schemes, and supplements - otherwise all they are doing is covering up for a major leak that was 90% of the problem in the first place.

I don't want ot take the thread off-topic.....but I am so glad you mentioned this. I don't like to get into advising about drug cycles because my thoughts on them are similar to yours (I am willing to bet we have similar backgrounds/schools of thought on them). Basically, the way I feel is the exact opposite of most people on the AAS board......I feel with sound training and simply eating enough, you CAN'T crash and lose all gains, provided you didn't take enough test to kill a Kentucky Derby champ.

I'll come out and say I have done some cycles over the years and I have NEVER used PCT, not once. I haven't done anything since August of 2003, I don't get into drug cycles much on discussion boards, but I know what I have done and what guys who compete in strength sports at all levels have done would be frowned upon on a BB board by the "180lb monsters"......I'll come out and say that I've used D-Bol ONLY, started at 2 tabs a day for a week, and added a tab a day each week up to 6 tabs a day, then tapered back down to 2 tabs and got great resuts......I've also used 3 d-bol tabs a day for 8 weeks and gotten awesome results.....and Test, anywhere from 250mg/week straight through to 600mg/week straight through, and went back to 250/week after a cycle of 600/week.....all with great results and with NO taper and have been perfectly fine......last anabolic I used was in Aug '03 and right now, over 3 years later, I am setting PRs in training and am leaner at my current bodyweight than I ever have been at this weight.......I think the guys touting PCT and bashing moderate 1 compound cycles don't know how to train or eat, but that is just my feeling.....I am sure anybody who is involved in strength and conditioning is inclined to agree with me, but the thinking is the same reason they never discuss "diet"....it's common sense, or so we hope....but with BB, common sense can't be implied, lol......I am not gonna get into it with a bunch guys (most steroid boards on most sites) who weigh about what I did in 8th grade on a topic that I know I'm right on, lol.....but whatever, ignorance is bliss.

 

[BiggT]

On a funny story.....I started reading the AAS board really just for shits and giggles about when I joined this site last year.....and I had to google "PCT", lol......I thought, 'Damn, we just tapered, or sometimes I'd ask one of the fruits from the commercial gym if I could buy 1 amp of Primo off them and that was my PCT".

 

[silver_shadow]

T, you mean to say that you've never run nolva/clomid/HCG, you just came straight off on a taper? how long would you cycle for (including the taper)?

 

[JKurz1]

I don't want ot take the thread off-topic.....but I am so glad you mentioned this. I don't like to get into advising about drug cycles because my thoughts on them are similar to yours (I am willing to bet we have similar backgrounds/schools of thought on them). Basically, the way I feel is the exact opposite of most people on the AAS board......I feel with sound training and simply eating enough, you CAN'T crash and lose all gains, provided you didn't take enough test to kill a Kentucky Derby champ.

I'll come out and say I have done some cycles over the years and I have NEVER used PCT, not once. I haven't done anything since August of 2003, I don't get into drug cycles much on discussion boards, but I know what I have done and what guys who compete in strength sports at all levels have done would be frowned upon on a BB board by the "180lb monsters"......I'll come out and say that I've used D-Bol ONLY, started at 2 tabs a day for a week, and added a tab a day each week up to 6 tabs a day, then tapered back down to 2 tabs and got great resuts......I've also used 3 d-bol tabs a day for 8 weeks and gotten awesome results.....and Test, anywhere from 250mg/week straight through to 600mg/week straight through, and went back to 250/week after a cycle of 600/week.....all with great results and with NO taper and have been perfectly fine......last anabolic I used was in Aug '03 and right now, over 3 years later, I am setting PRs in training and am leaner at my current bodyweight than I ever have been at this weight.......I think the guys touting PCT and bashing moderate 1 compound cycles don't know how to train or eat, but that is just my feeling.....I am sure anybody who is involved in strength and conditioning is inclined to agree with me, but the thinking is the same reason they never discuss "diet"....it's common sense, or so we hope....but with BB, common sense can't be implied, lol......I am not gonna get into it with a bunch guys (most steroid boards on most sites) who weigh about what I did in 8th grade on a topic that I know I'm right on, lol.....but whatever, ignorance is bliss.

Agree...Inever ran a pct in college.........experimented with deca, test and primo, no pct........now, however, I need it...it's been 16 weeks.....even at a low dose, I need my BALLS to come back....I need to be healthy again.....

 

[BiggT]

Jeff, your situation this time around was unique of course.

SS.....nope, I just came off or tapered. I'd use something typically for 8 weeks, sometimes 12. In college it was off-season Summers, either June 1-Aug 1 or June 1-Sept 1

With the test, I never used more than 600mg/week.......some of my best cycles were that D-bol pyramid up to 6 a day then back down to 2 a day with One 250mg shot of Omnadren a week. Then whatever D-bol I'd have left, I'd take a tab a day until it was gone (usually a few days or so, sometimes a week).

I think that basic D-Bol base/pyramid works like a charm though, and if somebdy loses all their gains off-cycle, then they shouldn't have been 'on' anyway because they don't know how to train.

 

[JKurz1]

You should get on again bro....low dose.....you'd be haayuge.

 

[silver_shadow]

You should get on again bro....low dose.....you'd be haayuge.

humongous

 

[JKurz1]

Also the more I read into it man the more GVT sounds pretty interesting.....doesn't impress you in the least, eh? 8x8, 5x5, 10x10......just to mix it up for 12 weeks......obviously, I've yet to find the routine that I can stick with for more than a few months....just get bored easily and love to shake it up.....

 

[BiggT]

GVT isn't bad at all.....I think the traditional way to run it is with a minute between sets on the 10x10 exercises, right?

I agree that 6 weeks a year tops would be about right though, the mental burnout and dreading workouts would probably be a problem at the end. I think GVT is a good program though.

 

[JKurz1]

so do it with me bro.........cmon....1 month we'll chart it together

 

[petpre61]

 

[Madcow2]

LOL

 

[silver_shadow]

JK, a few suggestions if you do decide on GVT:

1) no deadlifting 10x10 - way too hard and you'll probably burnout before the end of your 6wk block. squats and rows 10x10 will suffice
2) you are on PCT now. wait for at least 1 and a half months, preferably 2 before you start this.
3) be careful to choose low enough weights to begin with. i ended up injuring my shoulder with 3 weeks still to go... i couldn't do any pressing movement for nearly that time.

 

[JKurz1]

I got three weeks befor pct..........100mg of prop M,W,F for three weeks until long ethers run down.......