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Origin of the Species "debunked!" hahaha

Lestat

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So I was watching some youtube videos of the Muslims at UC Irvine and came across this as a related video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqmtx6dimeQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjE-IBUth4Q&feature=related

** note, those are just the first 2 parts of 12, you decide how much of your life you want to waste on it.


So, I am not an evolutionary bioligist, but I'm a decently smart person who took a lot of biology and has a pretty good understanding of evolution (which, for those who care, isn't debated amongst scientists, but some of the specifics of it are).

So this guy is in a lecture hall and puts up a slide with an eyeball (around 4:30 in video 2) and one of a circuit board and compares evolution to just pouring silicon and materials together and having it turn into a circuit board. He argues that this MUST mean it was DESIGNED.

People often times make the same argument for the eye, or any other complex system of the body.

Does this guy not understand the fundamentals of evolution?
1) it is anything but RANDOM
2) it requires small incremental changes

The eye, in theory, would have started as a single cell that was more sensitive to light than others, able to detect change in light. Then more cells, then greater accuracy to detech changes in light and patters associated with that change. Thought millions of iterations (and years) we get to the extremely complicated structure that we have today.

This guy basically shows flat out that he does not graps the concept of evolution at all, and is parroting an argument that is flaws yet appeals to ignorance.

I can see how many people, who also do not understand evolution, would think "wow this guy is right! Evolution CAN'T be true and we MUST have been designed!!"


Anyway, my rant is over.
 
Lestat said:
So I was watching some youtube videos of the Muslims at UC Irvine and came across this as a related video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqmtx6dimeQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjE-IBUth4Q&feature=related

** note, those are just the first 2 parts of 12, you decide how much of your life you want to waste on it.


So, I am not an evolutionary bioligist, but I'm a decently smart person who took a lot of biology and has a pretty good understanding of evolution (which, for those who care, isn't debated amongst scientists, but some of the specifics of it are).

So this guy is in a lecture hall and puts up a slide with an eyeball (around 4:30 in video 2) and one of a circuit board and compares evolution to just pouring silicon and materials together and having it turn into a circuit board. He argues that this MUST mean it was DESIGNED.

People often times make the same argument for the eye, or any other complex system of the body.

Does this guy not understand the fundamentals of evolution?
1) it is anything but RANDOM
2) it requires small incremental changes

The eye, in theory, would have started as a single cell that was more sensitive to light than others, able to detect change in light. Then more cells, then greater accuracy to detech changes in light and patters associated with that change. Thought millions of iterations (and years) we get to the extremely complicated structure that we have today.

This guy basically shows flat out that he does not graps the concept of evolution at all, and is parroting an argument that is flaws yet appeals to ignorance.

I can see how many people, who also do not understand evolution, would think "wow this guy is right! Evolution CAN'T be true and we MUST have been designed!!"


Anyway, my rant is over.
lol...that argument has been around since the 19th century.Similar to irreducible complexity. Ironically, that argument was shot down at trial by the bacterial flagellum.
 
oldest controversy in history.
 
javaguru said:
lol...that argument has been around since the 19th century.Similar to irreducible complexity. Ironically, that argument was shot down at trial by the bacterial flagellum.
as long as their is ignorance, people who employ that argument will always have an audience
 
Lestat said:
as long as their is ignorance, people who employ that argument will always have an audience

90% of the evolution theory is valid. The 10% was rejected through scientific theory. The part were humans evolved from apes was disproved.
 
Where did DNA come from?

How did the very first living creature reproduce?

What did it eat?
 
Lestat said:
So I was watching some youtube videos of the Muslims at UC Irvine and came across this as a related video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqmtx6dimeQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjE-IBUth4Q&feature=related

** note, those are just the first 2 parts of 12, you decide how much of your life you want to waste on it.


So, I am not an evolutionary bioligist, but I'm a decently smart person who took a lot of biology and has a pretty good understanding of evolution (which, for those who care, isn't debated amongst scientists, but some of the specifics of it are).

So this guy is in a lecture hall and puts up a slide with an eyeball (around 4:30 in video 2) and one of a circuit board and compares evolution to just pouring silicon and materials together and having it turn into a circuit board. He argues that this MUST mean it was DESIGNED.

People often times make the same argument for the eye, or any other complex system of the body.

Does this guy not understand the fundamentals of evolution?
1) it is anything but RANDOM
2) it requires small incremental changes

The eye, in theory, would have started as a single cell that was more sensitive to light than others, able to detect change in light. Then more cells, then greater accuracy to detech changes in light and patters associated with that change. Thought millions of iterations (and years) we get to the extremely complicated structure that we have today.

This guy basically shows flat out that he does not graps the concept of evolution at all, and is parroting an argument that is flaws yet appeals to ignorance.

I can see how many people, who also do not understand evolution, would think "wow this guy is right! Evolution CAN'T be true and we MUST have been designed!!"


Anyway, my rant is over.

I have mentioned that book several times while posting here. It's a GREAT book.
 
You know, I don't go around and tell children that Santa isn't real. If they want to believe, what the hell...
 
pin said:
Where did DNA come from?

How did the very first living creature reproduce?

What did it eat?

1) DNA evolved over a very long time, I am not sure if anyone could tell you exactly how with certainty. (but don't go making up any stories just so you have something to believe in)

2) Some sort of cell division process that is likely still inplace today

3) The first living creature on earth likely drew its energy from the sun somehow.

I'm not sure what the point of those questions are exactly. If all questions were answered, we'd have no more science. It thrives on the unknown and the quest for more knowledge and a great understanding of ourselves and the world.

There are other ways to think about life, some people would prefer to believe that we now know everything we ever will need to know about ourselves and the world, even the entire universe, and further inquiry is not only futile, its counter production. That type of mentality scares me.
 
myway said:
I have mentioned that book several times while posting here. It's a GREAT book.
what book? I never made reference to any book, just a lecture.
 
EnderJE said:
You know, I don't go around and tell children that Santa isn't real. If they want to believe, what the hell...
bro, i agree with you there! I feel the same way about astrologists and tarrot card readers, let them believe what they believe, I really couldn't care less.

I start to get bothered when other's start to impose their 'santa' like beliefs on me. For example, many countries require women to dress a certain way in public because of their mythological-style beliefs and world view. Even in this country certain behaviors have been made illegal (stem cell research, sodomy) because of belief in 'santa' like deities.
 
the_alcatraz said:
90% of the evolution theory is valid. The 10% was rejected through scientific theory. The part were humans evolved from apes was disproved.
I'd be interested in reading up on that. Its pretty clear that we share common ancestors with all primates, we share common ancestors with most animals on the earth!
 
Lestat said:
I'd be interested in reading up on that. Its pretty clear that we share common ancestors with all primates, we share common ancestors with most animals on the earth!

RAWR!
 
the_alcatraz said:
90% of the evolution theory is valid. The 10% was rejected through scientific theory. The part were humans evolved from apes was disproved.
Evolution doesn't make that claim we simply share common ancestors with all other primates.
 
Lestat said:
bro, i agree with you there! I feel the same way about astrologists and tarrot card readers, let them believe what they believe, I really couldn't care less.

I start to get bothered when other's start to impose their 'santa' like beliefs on me. For example, many countries require women to dress a certain way in public because of their mythological-style beliefs and world view. Even in this country certain behaviors have been made illegal (stem cell research, sodomy) because of belief in 'santa' like deities.
Still, you sometimes seems to be as zealous <is that even a word?> as those who believe in whatever they want. It's almost like it's getting to you or something. Or maybe I'm to indifferent to it all.
 
javaguru said:
Evolution doesn't make that claim we simply share common ancestors with all other primates.
we share common ancestors with lot more than just that, you just have to go back a lot farther.
 
There is no Evolution, only the animals that Chuck Norris allowed to live.

go watch ben steins movie "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed"
 
Lestat said:
1) DNA evolved over a very long time, I am not sure if anyone could tell you exactly how with certainty. (but don't go making up any stories just so you have something to believe in)

2) Some sort of cell division process that is likely still inplace today

3) The first living creature on earth likely drew its energy from the sun somehow.

So? You believe in evolution based on ancient unkowns? Sounds like "faith" to me.

Darwin had no idea how comlplex even the simplest of cells is when he invented the theory of evolution.

Cell division requires DNA and RNA to occure. Plus intercellular transport systems. Where did these systems come from how did the first living being survive w/out these. DNA originates from inside a cell.

Do you mean to say that DNA was just laying around on the ground w/out a DNA replication system?

How did said creature survive the Suns radiation, which cosmologists say was much more powerful billions of years ago, much less have a sophisticated photosythisis system in place Which requires tens of thousands of bits of genetic info in order to work.

Just sayin
 
big_bad_buff said:
There is no Evolution, only the animals that Chuck Norris allowed to live.

go watch ben steins movie "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed"
LOL..that movie was panned by critics. It's nothing but a propaganda film. I'd fire a biology teacher that tried to teach ancient literature in class, it isn't science.




"Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed was not screened in advance for film critics,[107] and when the film was released it received generally negative reviews. As of April 26, 2008, the review aggregator Rotten Tomatoes reported that 3 critics gave the film positive reviews and 30 gave negative ones.[108] Metacritic reported the film had an average score of 20 out of 100, based on 13 reviews.[109]"

Response from other critics was largely negative, particularly from those in the science media. The film's extensive use of Michael Moore-style devices was commented upon,[113][6][115][116] but the film was widely considered unamusing and unsubtle,[113] boring, poorly made,[117] unconvincing,[115][113] insulting,[11][118] and offensive to the religious.[119]

The film's rhetorical approach was subject to much criticism, widely considered to be misleading and dishonest[6][120][12] and was compared to that used by Big Tobacco[113] and propaganda.[12][115][21] The movie's use of Holocaust imagery (and other techniques)[115] to demonize evolution and those working in the field was a particular cause of concern and was considered distasteful[113][117][21] and manipulative of the audience,[116] with many critics surprised that Stein, a Jew, was involved in a movie which exploited the Holocaust in a "dishonest" way.[117][21] Several writers wondered whether Stein was involved for purely mercenary reasons and some expressed concern for his career direction and the film's effect on his reputation.[113][120][117] The film's evasiveness with regards to factual information was criticized, in particular that the movie failed to coherently define either evolution or intelligent design,[113][6][115] or to adequately explain the nature of the scientific debate, in particular omitting pertinent facts regarding the "expelled" scientists.[6][21] The movie was further derided for a lack of historical accuracy with regards to Stalinism and the Holocaust, regardless of evolution's involvement in either.[21]

The movie's promotional campaign also raised eyebrows, with many reviewers characterizing it as an attempt to drum up support from those who already agreed with its viewpoint while shielding the film from outside appraisal.[113][107] Many were of the opinion that the movie is 'preaching to the converted',[6][21] and at least one reviewer was concerned that those asking questions at preview screenings were planted.[115] There were also fears that the film was another step towards "sneaking" the teaching of intelligent design into schools.[116]

On April 18, 2008, the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) issued a statement about Expelled. The AAAS was "especially disappointed to learn that the producers of an intelligent design propaganda movie called 'Expelled' are inappropriately pitting science against religion." [15] The statement "further decries the profound dishonesty and lack of civility demonstrated by this effort," and said the movie "seeks to force religious viewpoints into science class – despite court decisions that have struck down efforts to bring creationism and intelligent design into schools." [121]

The American Association for the Advancement of Science describes the film as dishonest and divisive, aimed at introducing religious ideas into public school science classrooms,[15] and the film is being used in private screenings to legislators as part of the Discovery Institute intelligent design campaign for Academic Freedom bills.[16]"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expelled:_No_Intelligence_Allowed
 
EnderJE said:
You know, I don't go around and tell children that Santa isn't real. If they want to believe, what the hell...
Wait until they start flying planes into buildings and suicide bombing. :worried:
 
the_alcatraz said:
90% of the evolution theory is valid. The 10% was rejected through scientific theory. The part were humans evolved from apes was disproved.

humans didnt evolve from apes.. NO ONE ever said we did..

We and a few other primate species including a gorillas, chimps etc.. have a common primate ancestor.. with chimpanzees being our closest ancestors showing only a 3% divergence in DNA.

and I have spent quite a bit of time studying evolutionary biology. I look at people who beleive in creationism or "I.D." the same way I look at a retarded cat. Its a fucking joke.. the crap they spew nauseates me and they spend the majority of their time contradicting what they say or citethe bible .. as if thats some sort of irrefutable "proof". Might as well show me a comic book with pictures of angels.

Evolution is anything but random and is very much driven by environment, social constructs, diet and a host of other factors.

Science does NOT disagree on evolution.. but on certain aspects of how it occurs...

I always love how the religo-tards take some small disagreement completely out of context and use it as their "example' of how evolution is wrong. LOL.
I still find it hard to beleive anyone takes "creation science" seriously.

I always love the "Earth is only 6000 years old" crap.. how completely fucking stupid do you have to be.
 
dont really feel like reading all that, i'll just say the movie was great, and the funniest part about it was when he was talking about the evolutionist who get all butt hurt when you talk about anything other, like you're attacking their children, or maybe their religion lol, if a "theory" wasnt a theory anymore. he made Richard Dawkins look like a Fing fool which he is, and isnt richard dawkins suposed to be the king of evolution/science, what a dbag.


javaguru said:
LOL..that movie was panned by critics. It's nothing but a propaganda film. I'd fire a biology teacher that tried to teach ancient literature in class, it isn't science.




"Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed was not screened in advance for film critics,[107] and when the film was released it received generally negative reviews. As of April 26, 2008, the review aggregator Rotten Tomatoes reported that 3 critics gave the film positive reviews and 30 gave negative ones.[108] Metacritic reported the film had an average score of 20 out of 100, based on 13 reviews.[109]"

Response from other critics was largely negative, particularly from those in the science media. The film's extensive use of Michael Moore-style devices was commented upon,[113][6][115][116] but the film was widely considered unamusing and unsubtle,[113] boring, poorly made,[117] unconvincing,[115][113] insulting,[11][118] and offensive to the religious.[119]

The film's rhetorical approach was subject to much criticism, widely considered to be misleading and dishonest[6][120][12] and was compared to that used by Big Tobacco[113] and propaganda.[12][115][21] The movie's use of Holocaust imagery (and other techniques)[115] to demonize evolution and those working in the field was a particular cause of concern and was considered distasteful[113][117][21] and manipulative of the audience,[116] with many critics surprised that Stein, a Jew, was involved in a movie which exploited the Holocaust in a "dishonest" way.[117][21] Several writers wondered whether Stein was involved for purely mercenary reasons and some expressed concern for his career direction and the film's effect on his reputation.[113][120][117] The film's evasiveness with regards to factual information was criticized, in particular that the movie failed to coherently define either evolution or intelligent design,[113][6][115] or to adequately explain the nature of the scientific debate, in particular omitting pertinent facts regarding the "expelled" scientists.[6][21] The movie was further derided for a lack of historical accuracy with regards to Stalinism and the Holocaust, regardless of evolution's involvement in either.[21]

The movie's promotional campaign also raised eyebrows, with many reviewers characterizing it as an attempt to drum up support from those who already agreed with its viewpoint while shielding the film from outside appraisal.[113][107] Many were of the opinion that the movie is 'preaching to the converted',[6][21] and at least one reviewer was concerned that those asking questions at preview screenings were planted.[115] There were also fears that the film was another step towards "sneaking" the teaching of intelligent design into schools.[116]

On April 18, 2008, the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) issued a statement about Expelled. The AAAS was "especially disappointed to learn that the producers of an intelligent design propaganda movie called 'Expelled' are inappropriately pitting science against religion." [15] The statement "further decries the profound dishonesty and lack of civility demonstrated by this effort," and said the movie "seeks to force religious viewpoints into science class – despite court decisions that have struck down efforts to bring creationism and intelligent design into schools." [121]

The American Association for the Advancement of Science describes the film as dishonest and divisive, aimed at introducing religious ideas into public school science classrooms,[15] and the film is being used in private screenings to legislators as part of the Discovery Institute intelligent design campaign for Academic Freedom bills.[16]"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expelled:_No_Intelligence_Allowed
 
Thats right. Evolution is far from proven. It is a theory only. It should be taught and explored. But it shouldn't be taught as a fact. Those that teach it as fact are just as guilty as religeous folks who teach their beliefs as fact.

If you believe in something that is not proven it is a religeon.
 
big_bad_buff said:
dont really feel like reading all that, i'll just say the movie was great, and the funniest part about it was when he was talking about the evolutionist who get all butt hurt when you talk about anything other, like you're attacking their children, or maybe their religion lol, if a "theory" wasnt a theory anymore. he made Richard Dawkins look like a Fing fool which he is, and isnt richard dawkins suposed to be the king of evolution, what a dbag.
That's because they used Michael Moore style editing and production, one of the points raised by critics when panning the movie.

I would love to see Dawkins pwn Stein in a debate. The guy is an economist and attorney. Dawkins was voted the #1 British intellectual by his peers, twice as many votes as #2.
 
javaguru said:
That's because they used Michael Moore style editing and production, one of the points raised by critics when panning the movie.

I would love to see Dawkins pwn Stein in a debate. The guy is an economist and attorney. Dawkins was voted the #1 British intellectual by his peers, twice as many votes as #2.

And you should have seen Dr. William Lane Craig pwn Dr. Peter Atkins in a debate over the existence of God.
 
Lestat said:
So I was watching some youtube videos of the Muslims at UC Irvine and came across this as a related video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqmtx6dimeQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjE-IBUth4Q&feature=related

** note, those are just the first 2 parts of 12, you decide how much of your life you want to waste on it.


So, I am not an evolutionary bioligist, but I'm a decently smart person who took a lot of biology and has a pretty good understanding of evolution (which, for those who care, isn't debated amongst scientists, but some of the specifics of it are).

So this guy is in a lecture hall and puts up a slide with an eyeball (around 4:30 in video 2) and one of a circuit board and compares evolution to just pouring silicon and materials together and having it turn into a circuit board. He argues that this MUST mean it was DESIGNED.

People often times make the same argument for the eye, or any other complex system of the body.

Does this guy not understand the fundamentals of evolution?
1) it is anything but RANDOM
2) it requires small incremental changes

The eye, in theory, would have started as a single cell that was more sensitive to light than others, able to detect change in light. Then more cells, then greater accuracy to detech changes in light and patters associated with that change. Thought millions of iterations (and years) we get to the extremely complicated structure that we have today.

This guy basically shows flat out that he does not graps the concept of evolution at all, and is parroting an argument that is flaws yet appeals to ignorance.

I can see how many people, who also do not understand evolution, would think "wow this guy is right! Evolution CAN'T be true and we MUST have been designed!!"


Anyway, my rant is over.

Someday we will be among dinosaurs again. :)
 
pin said:
Thats right. Evolution is far from proven. It is a theory only. It should be taught and explored. But it shouldn't be taught as a fact. Those that teach it as fact are just as guilty as religeous folks who teach their beliefs as fact.

If you believe in something that is not proven it is a religeon.
http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/articles/dawkins.html

Is Science a Religion?
by Richard Dawkins

It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, "mad cow" disease, and many others, but I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate.

Faith, being belief that isn't based on evidence, is the principal vice of any religion. And who, looking at Northern Ireland or the Middle East, can be confident that the brain virus of faith is not exceedingly dangerous? One of the stories told to the young Muslim suicide bombers is that martyrdom is the quickest way to heaven — and not just heaven but a special part of heaven where they will receive their special reward of 72 virgin brides. It occurs to me that our best hope may be to provide a kind of "spiritual arms control": send in specially trained theologians to deescalate the going rate in virgins.
Given the dangers of faith — and considering the accomplishments of reason and observation in the activity called science — I find it ironic that, whenever I lecture publicly, there always seems to be someone who comes forward and says, "Of course, your science is just a religion like ours. Fundamentally, science just comes down to faith, doesn't it?"

Well, science is not religion and it doesn't just come down to faith. Although it has many of religion's virtues, it has none of its vices. Science is based upon verifiable evidence. Religious faith not only lacks evidence, its independence from evidence is its pride and joy, shouted from the rooftops. Why else would Christians wax critical of doubting Thomas? The other apostles are held up to us as exemplars of virtue because faith was enough for them. Doubting Thomas, on the other hand, required evidence. Perhaps he should be the patron saint of scientists.

One reason I receive the comment about science being a religion is because I believe in the fact of evolution. I even believe in it with passionate conviction. To some, this may superficially look like faith. But the evidence that makes me believe in evolution is not only overwhelmingly strong; it is freely available to anyone who takes the trouble to read up on it. Anyone can study the same evidence that I have and presumably come to the same conclusion. But if you have a belief that is based solely on faith, I can't examine your reasons. You can retreat behind the private wall of faith where I can't reach you.

Now in practice, of course, individual scientists do sometimes slip back into the vice of faith, and a few may believe so single-mindedly in a favorite theory that they occasionally falsify evidence. However, the fact that this sometimes happens doesn't alter the principle that, when they do so, they do it with shame and not with pride. The method of science is so designed that it usually finds them out in the end.

Science is actually one of the most moral, one of the most honest disciplines around — because science would completely collapse if it weren't for a scrupulous adherence to honesty in the reporting of evidence. (As James Randi has pointed out, this is one reason why scientists are so often fooled by paranormal tricksters and why the debunking role is better played by professional conjurors; scientists just don't anticipate deliberate dishonesty as well.) There are other professions (no need to mention lawyers specifically) in which falsifying evidence or at least twisting it is precisely what people are paid for and get brownie points for doing.

Science, then, is free of the main vice of religion, which is faith. But, as I pointed out, science does have some of religion's virtues. Religion may aspire to provide its followers with various benefits — among them explanation, consolation, and uplift. Science, too, has something to offer in these areas.
Humans have a great hunger for explanation. It may be one of the main reasons why humanity so universally has religion, since religions do aspire to provide explanations. We come to our individual consciousness in a mysterious universe and long to understand it. Most religions offer a cosmology and a biology, a theory of life, a theory of origins, and reasons for existence. In doing so, they demonstrate that religion is, in a sense, science; it's just bad science. Don't fall for the argument that religion and science operate on separate dimensions and are concerned with quite separate sorts of questions. Religions have historically always attempted to answer the questions that properly belong to science. Thus religions should not be allowed now to retreat away from the ground upon which they have traditionally attempted to fight. They do offer both a cosmology and a biology; however, in both cases it is false.

Consolation is harder for science to provide. Unlike religion, science cannot offer the bereaved a glorious reunion with their loved ones in the hereafter. Those wronged on this earth cannot, on a scientific view, anticipate a sweet comeuppance for their tormentors in a life to come. It could be argued that, if the idea of an afterlife is an illusion (as I believe it is), the consolation it offers is hollow. But that's not necessarily so; a false belief can be just as comforting as a true one, provided the believer never discovers its falsity. But if consolation comes that cheap, science can weigh in with other cheap palliatives, such as pain-killing drugs, whose comfort may or may not be illusory, but they do work.

Uplift, however, is where science really comes into its own. All the great religions have a place for awe, for ecstatic transport at the wonder and beauty of creation. And it's exactly this feeling of spine-shivering, breath-catching awe — almost worship — this flooding of the chest with ecstatic wonder, that modern science can provide. And it does so beyond the wildest dreams of saints and mystics. The fact that the supernatural has no place in our explanations, in our understanding of so much about the universe and life, doesn't diminish the awe. Quite the contrary. The merest glance through a microscope at the brain of an ant or through a telescope at a long-ago galaxy of a billion worlds is enough to render poky and parochial the very psalms of praise.

Now, as I say, when it is put to me that science or some particular part of science, like evolutionary theory, is just a religion like any other, I usually deny it with indignation. But I've begun to wonder whether perhaps that's the wrong tactic. Perhaps the right tactic is to accept the charge gratefully and demand equal time for science in religious education classes. And the more I think about it, the more I realize that an excellent case could be made for this. So I want to talk a little bit about religious education and the place that science might play in it.

I do feel very strongly about the way children are brought up. I'm not entirely familiar with the way things are in the United States, and what I say may have more relevance to the United Kingdom, where there is state-obliged, legally-enforced religious instruction for all children. That's unconstitutional in the United States, but I presume that children are nevertheless given religious instruction in whatever particular religion their parents deem suitable.
Which brings me to my point about mental child abuse. In a 1995 issue of the Independent, one of London's leading newspapers, there was a photograph of a rather sweet and touching scene. It was Christmas time, and the picture showed three children dressed up as the three wise men for a nativity play. The accompanying story described one child as a Muslim, one as a Hindu, and one as a Christian. The supposedly sweet and touching point of the story was that they were all taking part in this Nativity play.

What is not sweet and touching is that these children were all four years old. How can you possibly describe a child of four as a Muslim or a Christian or a Hindu or a Jew? Would you talk about a four-year-old economic monetarist? Would you talk about a four-year-old neo-isolationist or a four-year-old liberal Republican? There are opinions about the cosmos and the world that children, once grown, will presumably be in a position to evaluate for themselves. Religion is the one field in our culture about which it is absolutely accepted, without question — without even noticing how bizarre it is — that parents have a total and absolute say in what their children are going to be, how their children are going to be raised, what opinions their children are going to have about the cosmos, about life, about existence. Do you see what I mean about mental child abuse?

Looking now at the various things that religious education might be expected to accomplish, one of its aims could be to encourage children to reflect upon the deep questions of existence, to invite them to rise above the humdrum preoccupations of ordinary life and think sub specie aeternitatis.
Science can offer a vision of life and the universe which, as I've already remarked, for humbling poetic inspiration far outclasses any of the mutually contradictory faiths and disappointingly recent traditions of the world's religions.

For example, how could children in religious education classes fail to be inspired if we could get across to them some inkling of the age of the universe? Suppose that, at the moment of Christ's death, the news of it had started traveling at the maximum possible speed around the universe outwards from the earth. How far would the terrible tidings have traveled by now? Following the theory of special relativity, the answer is that the news could not, under any circumstances whatever, have reached more that one-fiftieth of the way across one galaxy — not one- thousandth of the way to our nearest neighboring galaxy in the 100-million-galaxy-strong universe. The universe at large couldn't possibly be anything other than indifferent to Christ, his birth, his passion, and his death. Even such momentous news as the origin of life on Earth could have traveled only across our little local cluster of galaxies. Yet so ancient was that event on our earthly time-scale that, if you span its age with your open arms, the whole of human history, the whole of human culture, would fall in the dust from your fingertip at a single stroke of a nail file.

The argument from design, an important part of the history of religion, wouldn't be ignored in my religious education classes, needless to say. The children would look at the spellbinding wonders of the living kingdoms and would consider Darwinism alongside the creationist alternatives and make up their own minds. I think the children would have no difficulty in making up their minds the right way if presented with the evidence. What worries me is not the question of equal time but that, as far as I can see, children in the United Kingdom and the United States are essentially given no time with evolution yet are taught creationism (whether at school, in church, or at home).

It would also be interesting to teach more than one theory of creation. The dominant one in this culture happens to be the Jewish creation myth, which is taken over from the Babylonian creation myth. There are, of course, lots and lots of others, and perhaps they should all be given equal time (except that wouldn't leave much time for studying anything else). I understand that there are Hindus who believe that the world was created in a cosmic butter churn and Nigerian peoples who believe that the world was created by God from the excrement of ants. Surely these stories have as much right to equal time as the Judeo-Christian myth of Adam and Eve.

So much for Genesis; now let's move on to the prophets. Halley's Comet will return without fail in the year 2062. Biblical or Delphic prophecies don't begin to aspire to such accuracy; astrologers and Nostradamians dare not commit themselves to factual prognostications but, rather, disguise their charlatanry in a smokescreen of vagueness. When comets have appeared in the past, they've often been taken as portents of disaster. Astrology has played an important part in various religious traditions, including Hinduism. The three wise men I mentioned earlier were said to have been led to the cradle of Jesus by a star. We might ask the children by what physical route do they imagine the alleged stellar influence on human affairs could travel.

Incidentally, there was a shocking program on the BBC radio around Christmas 1995 featuring an astronomer, a bishop, and a journalist who were sent off on an assignment to retrace the steps of the three wise men. Well, you could understand the participation of the bishop and the journalist (who happened to be a religious writer), but the astronomer was a supposedly respectable astronomy writer, and yet she went along with this! All along the route, she talked about the portents of when Saturn and Jupiter were in the ascendant up Uranus or whatever it was. She doesn't actually believe in astrology, but one of the problems is that our culture has been taught to become tolerant of it, vaguely amused by it — so much so that even scientific people who don't believe in astrology sort of think it's a bit of harmless fun. I take astrology very seriously indeed: I think it's deeply pernicious because it undermines rationality, and I should like to see campaigns against it.

When the religious education class turns to ethics, I don't think science actually has a lot to say, and I would replace it with rational moral philosophy. Do the children think there are absolute standards of right and wrong? And if so, where do they come from? Can you make up good working principles of right and wrong, like "do as you would be done by" and "the greatest good for the greatest number" (whatever that is supposed to mean)? It's a rewarding question, whatever your personal morality, to ask as an evolutionist where morals come from; by what route has the human brain gained its tendency to have ethics and morals, a feeling of right and wrong?

Should we value human life above all other life? Is there a rigid wall to be built around the species Homo sapiens, or should we talk about whether there are other species which are entitled to our humanistic sympathies? Should we, for example, follow the right-to-life lobby, which is wholly preoccupied with human life, and value the life of a human fetus with the faculties of a worm over the life of a thinking and feeling chimpanzee? What is the basis of this fence that we erect around Homo sapiens — even around a small piece of fetal tissue? (Not a very sound evolutionary idea when you think about it.) When, in our evolutionary descent from our common ancestor with chimpanzees, did the fence suddenly rear itself up?

Well, moving on, then, from morals to last things, to eschatology, we know from the second law of thermodynamics that all complexity, all life, all laughter, all sorrow, is hell bent on leveling itself out into cold nothingness in the end. They — and we — can never be more then temporary, local buckings of the great universal slide into the abyss of uniformity.

We know that the universe is expanding and will probably expand forever, although it's possible it may contract again. We know that, whatever happens to the universe, the sun will engulf the earth in about 60 million centuries from now.

Time itself began at a certain moment, and time may end at a certain moment — or it may not. Time may come locally to an end in miniature crunches called black holes. The laws of the universe seem to be true all over the universe. Why is this? Might the laws change in these crunches? To be really speculative, time could begin again with new laws of physics, new physical constants. And it has even been suggested that there could be many universes, each one isolated so completely that, for it, the others don't exist. Then again, there might be a Darwinian selection among universes.
So science could give a good account of itself in religious education. But it wouldn't be enough. I believe that some familiarity with the King James version of the Bible is important for anyone wanting to understand the allusions that appear in English literature. Together with the Book of Common Prayer, the Bible gets 58 pages in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations. Only Shakespeare has more. I do think that not having any kind of biblical education is unfortunate if children want to read English literature and understand the provenance of phrases like "through a glass darkly," "all flesh is as grass," "the race is not to the swift," "crying in the wilderness," "reaping the whirlwind," "amid the alien corn," "Eyeless in Gaza," "Job's comforters," and "the widow's mite."

I want to return now to the charge that science is just a faith. The more extreme version of that charge — and one that I often encounter as both a scientist and a rationalist — is an accusation of zealotry and bigotry in scientists themselves as great as that found in religious people. Sometimes there may be a little bit of justice in this accusation; but as zealous bigots, we scientists are mere amateurs at the game. We're content to argue with those who disagree with us. We don't kill them.

But I would want to deny even the lesser charge of purely verbal zealotry. There is a very, very important difference between feeling strongly, even passionately, about something because we have thought about and examined the evidence for it on the one hand, and feeling strongly about something because it has been internally revealed to us, or internally revealed to somebody else in history and subsequently hallowed by tradition. There's all the difference in the world between a belief that one is prepared to defend by quoting evidence and logic and a belief that is supported by nothing more than tradition, authority, or revelation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Richard Dawkins is Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University. His books include The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker, River Out of Eden, and, most recently, Climbing Mount Improbable. This article is adapted from his speech in acceptance of the 1996 Humanist of the Year Award from the American Humanist Association.
 
man you dont know what your talking about, dawkins said he believed in god or a higher alien power that squirted sperm on earth and we came from that, but we are foolish for believing in the god of the bible hahahahaahahaha

unless they got a look a like and it wasnt really dawkins he was interviewing, i would be ashamed to even know richard dawkins after that interview. in fact if i was richard dawkins brother i would have punched him straight in the eye right after that interview and then changed my last name.



javaguru said:
That's because they used Michael Moore style editing and production, one of the points raised by critics when panning the movie.

I would love to see Dawkins pwn Stein in a debate. The guy is an economist and attorney. Dawkins was voted the #1 British intellectual by his peers, twice as many votes as #2.
 
big_bad_buff said:
man you dont know what your talking about, dawkins said he beleived in god or a higher alien power that squirted sperm on earth and we came from that, but we are foolish for believing in the god of the bible hahahahaahahaha

unless they got a look a like and it wasnt really dawkins he was interviewing, i would be ashamed to even know richard dawkins after that interview. in fact if i was richard dawkins brother i would had punched him in the eye right after that interview and then changed my last name.
He made a joke about panspermia ...
"Dawkins responded with Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel's tongue-in-cheek example that in the case of the "highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would themselves have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett)."
 
javaguru said:
He made a joke about panspermia ...
"Dawkins responded with Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel's tongue-in-cheek example that in the case of the "highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would themselves have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett)."


if you say so man, i hate the guy, but i was kind of feeling sorry for him. i would have thought he was going to pop off some scietific shit that was over everyones head....nope, sounded like he was talking about how the creatures in pans labyrinth or narnia were created, i didnt know what to think. he straight up said he beleived in a god, or a alien being. what a joke.
 
big_bad_buff said:
if you say so man, i hate the guy, but i was kind of feeling sorry for him. i would have thought he was going to pop off some scietific shit that was over everyones head....nope, sounded like he was talking about how the creatures in pans labyrinth or narnia were created, i didnt know what to think. he straight up said he beleived in a god, or a alien being. what a joke.
He was reciting a joking quote from Francis Crick the co-discoverer of DNA.
 
pin said:
So? You believe in evolution based on ancient unkowns? Sounds like "faith" to me.

Darwin had no idea how comlplex even the simplest of cells is when he invented the theory of evolution.

Cell division requires DNA and RNA to occure. Plus intercellular transport systems. Where did these systems come from how did the first living being survive w/out these. DNA originates from inside a cell.

Do you mean to say that DNA was just laying around on the ground w/out a DNA replication system?

How did said creature survive the Suns radiation, which cosmologists say was much more powerful billions of years ago, much less have a sophisticated photosythisis system in place Which requires tens of thousands of bits of genetic info in order to work.

Just sayin
yes, I have "faith" that we do not know everything, and I have very STRONG faith that we won't in our lifetime.

Unlike what most other people call "faith" I am open to the possibility of it being wrong, many others use "faith" as a catch all term to desribe a belief for which there is no real evidence, and cannot be changed even with the introduction of NEW evidence. I don't call that faith, I call it plain stupid.
 
pin said:
So? You believe in evolution based on ancient unkowns? Sounds like "faith" to me.

Darwin had no idea how comlplex even the simplest of cells is when he invented the theory of evolution.

Cell division requires DNA and RNA to occure. Plus intercellular transport systems. Where did these systems come from how did the first living being survive w/out these. DNA originates from inside a cell.

Do you mean to say that DNA was just laying around on the ground w/out a DNA replication system?

How did said creature survive the Suns radiation, which cosmologists say was much more powerful billions of years ago, much less have a sophisticated photosythisis system in place Which requires tens of thousands of bits of genetic info in order to work.

Just sayin
oh sorry, didn't mean to ignore the other "Questions" you have. I guess saying "I don't know" doesn't suffice for you, but you keep asking me about faith complex systems that take a long time to evolve, lets start with something more simple, the first hyrodren atom. You start with that you can get to nearly anything (before you get all worked up, NO, I don't know exactly how, but we'll probably get there one day) how did the first bit of ANY matter come to exist, I wish I knew. Luckily no one has written a book talking about that, for I fear religion would be with us for a LOT longer than it will be had it started with the simple creation of a single atom and moved on from there. Instead, because of the limited understanding of the authors at the time, they started with "creation" of full animals (all of them that ever existed according to some) which is a lot easier to debunk.

I always wondered why god took the time to create so many species only to have them quickly become extint (scientists estimate that 90% or more of all species ever to exist on earth are now extinct). I guess it was sin that did it all in.
 
I imagine two men thousands of years ago arguing about Apollo bringing the sun up everyday and one man saying,"How does the sun rise if Apollo doesn't do it?"
 
javaguru said:
I imagine two men thousands of years ago arguing about Apollo bringing the sun up everyday and one man saying,"How does the sun rise if Apollo doesn't do it?"
I think of that kind of thing all the time. How many man made explanations for things have been debunked over time? I think that is what appeals to me about science, its a body of work constantly being updated. It draws upon the convergence of evidence, multiple sources, the testability of a hypothesis, etc. All things that many other world views will not subject themselves too. They instead take all new evidence and figure out how it is best explained by their existing, and infallible theory.
 
javaguru said:
Did I miss some evidence that proves God?

Your comment is a double edged sword my friend. No one can prove the exsistence of God. Just as no one can disprove the exsistence of God.

Will you watch the debate?

I believe in God. You disbelieve in God. Either of us could be wrong. I have no problem addmitting the possibility that I am wrong. It is a possibility.

But there could be a God living in a transendant or parallel universe that created this one. And you would have no way of disproving His exsistence.

I think its funny that Darwinian evolutionists are so hostile and paranoid about intelligent design. Even to the point of trying to shut it down and silence people. Poor Darwin himself faced this same sort of opposition when he proposed the theory by the ideot paranoid religeous elites of his time. Oh how the tables have turned.

No one on the side of the intelligent design argument is opposed to the teaching of eveolutionary theory. Just to the teaching that it is a fact. It is not a fact, it is an unproven theory and if you force it down peoples throats as fact then you are no better than the people that you hate for flying planes into buildings trying to force the masses to swallow their unsupported belief system.

Desighn theorists just want open healthy debate between evolutionists and design theorist from every genre of science. And to explore the possibility that maybe perhaps the universe is designed and explore the implications of that. And if the data leads away from God, fine. But if it does then everyone should be open to exploring that. Religeon and science will probably never coexsist. But through the ridged use of logic God and science can.
 
pin said:
Your comment is a double edged sword my friend. No one can prove the exsistence of God. Just as no one can disprove the exsistence of God.

Will you watch the debate?

I believe in God. You disbelieve in God. Either of us could be wrong. I have no problem addmitting the possibility that I am wrong. It is a possibility.

But there could be a God living in a transendant or parallel universe that created this one. And you would have no way of disproving His exsistence.

I think its funny that Darwinian evolutionists are so hostile and paranoid about intelligent design. Even to the point of trying to shut it down and silence people. Poor Darwin himself faced this same sort of opposition when he proposed the theory by the ideot paranoid religeous elites of his time. Oh how the tables have turned.

No one on the side of the intelligent design argument is opposed to the teaching of eveolutionary theory. Just to the teaching that it is a fact. It is not a fact, it is an unproven theory and if you force it down peoples throats as fact then you are no better than the people that you hate for flying planes into buildings trying to force the masses to swallow their unsupported belief system.

Desighn theorists just want open healthy debate between evolutionists and design theorist from every genre of science. And to explore the possibility that maybe perhaps the universe is designed and explore the implications of that. And if the data leads away from God, fine. But if it does then everyone should be open to exploring that. Religeon and science will probably never coexsist. But through the ridged use of logic God and science can.
You are mistaken, I don't disbelieve in a God, I don't believe in a God.
 
Lestat said:
yes, I have "faith" that we do not know everything, and I have very STRONG faith that we won't in our lifetime.

Unlike what most other people call "faith" I am open to the possibility of it being wrong, many others use "faith" as a catch all term to desribe a belief for which there is no real evidence, and cannot be changed even with the introduction of NEW evidence. I don't call that faith, I call it plain stupid.

Wow man. When Darwin proposed the theory of evolution he had no idea that DNA exsisted. Nucliotides, intercellular transport, mitochodrea, amino acids, RNA, miosis, mitosis, blood clotting, etc. etc. He had no clue. The DNA sequence has billions of bits of info. If you printed it all out you could fill the grand canyon w/ books. I would definately call that new evidence.

It was easy for him to imagine a lifeform rising out of the muck because he thought a cell was just a tiny bag of goo and there wasn't much to it.

"If it could be demonstrated that any complex ogan exsisted which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my THEORY would absolutely break down." -Charles Darwin

OK. How would the first living creatures survive an injury w/out a blood clotting mechanism?

an irreducibly complex system is one composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning.

How did the first creatures survive a hostile universe in their infancy w/out fully functional digestive, reproductive, ciculatory and respatory systems in place? If they can't survive in the first place they cant reproduce stronger offspring able to evolve at all.

These are legitemate questions that evolutionary theory cannot answer as of yet. So why not objectively explore design theory to see where it lead? Apart from organized religeon.
 
pin said:
Wow man. Whe Darwin proposed the theory of evolution he had no idea that DNA exsisted. Nucliotides, intercellular transport, mitochodrea, amino acids, RNA, miosis, mitosis, blood clotting, etc. etc. He had no clue. The DNA sequence has billions of bits of info. If you printed it all out you could fill the grand canyon w/ books. I would definately call that new evidence.

It was easy for him to imagine a lifeform rising out of the muck because he thought a cell was just a tiny bag of goo and there wasn't much to it.

"If it could be demonstrated that any complex ogan exsisted which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my THEORY would absolutely break down." -Charles Darwin

OK. How would the first living creatures survive an injury w/out a blood clotting mechanism?

an irreducibly complex system is one composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning.

How did the first creatures survive a hostile universe in their infancy w/out fully functional digestive, reproductive, ciculatory and respatory systems in place? If they can't survive in the first place they cant reproduce stronger offspring able to evolve at all.

These are legitemate questions that evolutionary theory cannot answer as of yet. So why not objectively explore design theory to see where it lead? Apart from organized religeon.
It's much easier to accept the universe was created by some supernatural dude in six days. :rolleyes:
 
Lestat said:
I'd be interested in reading up on that. Its pretty clear that we share common ancestors with all primates, we share common ancestors with most animals on the earth!

Well, we merely differ on one issue. I believe that the first man on earth looked similar to some extent to todays man, Adam, and did not resemble apes. You see there is the issue of religion and faith.
 
milo hobgoblin said:
humans didnt evolve from apes.. NO ONE ever said we did..

We and a few other primate species including a gorillas, chimps etc.. have a common primate ancestor.. with chimpanzees being our closest ancestors showing only a 3% divergence in DNA.

and I have spent quite a bit of time studying evolutionary biology. I look at people who beleive in creationism or "I.D." the same way I look at a retarded cat. Its a fucking joke.. the crap they spew nauseates me and they spend the majority of their time contradicting what they say or citethe bible .. as if thats some sort of irrefutable "proof". Might as well show me a comic book with pictures of angels.

Evolution is anything but random and is very much driven by environment, social constructs, diet and a host of other factors.

Science does NOT disagree on evolution.. but on certain aspects of how it occurs...

I always love how the religo-tards take some small disagreement completely out of context and use it as their "example' of how evolution is wrong. LOL.
I still find it hard to beleive anyone takes "creation science" seriously.

I always love the "Earth is only 6000 years old" crap.. how completely fucking stupid do you have to be.

never said evolution is wrong. And if you've studied biology, you'd know that a 3% diff in DNA is HUGE.
 
javaguru said:
It's much easier to accept the universe was created by some supernatural dude in six days. :rolleyes:

See? Now you are geing closed minded and unreasonable. You resort to insults cause you don't have answers to legitemate questions. You are the one bringing religeon into it. No one said anything about Christianity. You did.

This is not how scholars debate. I know that we are not scholars but could we at least have a civil discussion?

Why won't you address my questions? And if you can't why not just admit that you could be, and I said could be wrong.

What if there is a God? And He is waiting for us to use science ane reason to find Him. And stop blowing each other up. Just waiting for us to get something right so the human race can proceed to the next step. Its just a thought. Its not fact but what if? All scientific discoveries start out as what ifs.
 
pin said:
See? Now you are geing closed minded and unreasonable. You resort to insults cause you don't have answers to legitemate questions. You are the one bringing religeon into it. No one said anything about Christianity. You did.

This is not how scholars debate. I know that we are not scholars but could we at least have a civil discussion?

Why won't you address my questions? And if you can't why not just admit that you could be, and I said could be wrong.

What if there is a God? And He is waiting for us to use science ane reason to find Him. And stop blowing each other up. Just waiting for us to get something right so the human race can proceed to the next step. Its just a thought. Its not fact but what if? All scientific discoveries start out as what ifs.
Give me your evidence and I'll believe...who has the most evidence? Jesus or science? I don't need faith, I want facts.
 
the_alcatraz said:
never said evolution is wrong. And if you've studied biology, you'd know that a 3% diff in DNA is HUGE.
and the 97% shared is even HUGER!
 
javaguru said:
Give me your evidence and I'll believe...who has the most evidence? Jesus or science? I don't need faith, I want facts.

You still haven't answered any of my preveious questions. Who is walking blindly by faith now? You believe so deeply in a flawed unproven theory that you won't even engage in freindly debate.

I think you are afraid. Afraid to explore ( not neccesarily believe) but explore a new and viable belief system that could unite science and theology. Because you my discover some facts that my cause you to question your views. And that is scary to you.

Its kind of sad. You are now no different than the religeous freaks who persecuted and a attacked Darwin in his day.
 
pin said:
You still haven't answered any of my preveious questions. Who is walking blindly by faith now? You believe so deeply in a flawed unproven theory that you won't even engage in freindly debate.

I think you are afraid. Afraid to explore ( not neccesarily believe) but explore a new and viable belief system that could unite science and theology. Because you my discover some facts that my cause you to question your views. And that is scary to you.

Its kind of sad. You are now no different than the religeous freaks who persecuted and a attacked Darwin in his day.
Which side has the evidence? Just sayin'
 
javaguru said:
Which side has the evidence? Just sayin'

Both sides have evidence to support their theories. And both sides lack sufficient evidence to prove their theories.

You havn't even attempted to answer my preveious questions yet.

Just sayin'
 
pin said:
Both sides have evidence to support their theories. And both sides lack sufficient evidence to prove their theories.

You havn't even attempted to answer my preveious questions yet.

Just sayin'
Prove your God without philosophy BS....evidence.... :)
 
Lestat said:
So I was watching some youtube videos of the Muslims at UC Irvine and came across this as a related video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqmtx6dimeQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjE-IBUth4Q&feature=related

** note, those are just the first 2 parts of 12, you decide how much of your life you want to waste on it.


So, I am not an evolutionary bioligist, but I'm a decently smart person who took a lot of biology and has a pretty good understanding of evolution (which, for those who care, isn't debated amongst scientists, but some of the specifics of it are).

So this guy is in a lecture hall and puts up a slide with an eyeball (around 4:30 in video 2) and one of a circuit board and compares evolution to just pouring silicon and materials together and having it turn into a circuit board. He argues that this MUST mean it was DESIGNED.

People often times make the same argument for the eye, or any other complex system of the body.

Does this guy not understand the fundamentals of evolution?
1) it is anything but RANDOM
2) it requires small incremental changes

The eye, in theory, would have started as a single cell that was more sensitive to light than others, able to detect change in light. Then more cells, then greater accuracy to detech changes in light and patters associated with that change. Thought millions of iterations (and years) we get to the extremely complicated structure that we have today.

This guy basically shows flat out that he does not graps the concept of evolution at all, and is parroting an argument that is flaws yet appeals to ignorance.

I can see how many people, who also do not understand evolution, would think "wow this guy is right! Evolution CAN'T be true and we MUST have been designed!!"


Anyway, my rant is over.
go fuck yourself lestat
you're a dead man
easy to speak about it when young

come with me and put some mesentery back inside
 
Spartacus said:
go fuck yourself lestat
you're a dead man
easy to speak about it when young

come with me and put some mesentery back inside
we're all dead one day man. On my death bed I want to be able to say two things.
1) I was a positive force in the lifes of those I touched
2) I enjoyed life to its fullest

for me #2 doesn't include any pipe deams.
 
Spartacus said:
go fuck yourself lestat
you're a dead man
easy to speak about it when young

come with me and put some mesentery back inside
I do anticipate aging, and seeing if rational thought and fact matter less to me then than they do now. I assume you are speaking from experience in regards to that transition?
 
Lestat said:
many others use "faith" as a catch all term to desribe a belief for which there is no real evidence, and cannot be changed even with the introduction of NEW evidence. I don't call that faith, I call it plain stupid.

i agree, oh wait, you were talking about darwinism correct?
 
big_bad_buff said:
i agree, oh wait, you were talking about darwinism correct?
are you stupid?

Darwinism is build on evidence, it can be changed, and new evidence is found all the time. Did you not read my post right?
 
pin said:
I think its funny that Darwinian evolutionists are so hostile and paranoid about intelligent design. Even to the point of trying to shut it down and silence people.

exactly, and this is bassicly what ben steins movie is about.
 
the_alcatraz said:
Do u know what % diff. there is between einstein and a retard?
measured in what? IQ points? Scientific awards on the wall? DNA?

In terms of DNA the difference would be minute, almost indistinguishable in terms of the cognitive component.

You are measuring the difference in mental capacity and output by DNA which is responsible for things far more complicated, important, and less subjective than that.

That is exactly like me saying "Do you know what the difference between a ringtone, and a full opera is, in years?"
 
evolution occurred. intelligent design is pseudo science. ( horse shit )

doesn't matter if you believe it or not but intellectual suicide is pathetic

and even more pathetic, is that you will transfer this lie to your children.
 
layinback said:
evolution occurred. intelligent design is pseudo science. ( horse shit )

doesn't matter if you believe it or not but intellectual suicide is pathetic

and even more pathetic, is that you will transfer this lie to your children.
I am "paranoid" as pin puts it, of lies being taught as truth. That should scare anybody.
 
pin said:
You still haven't answered any of my preveious questions. Who is walking blindly by faith now? You believe so deeply in a flawed unproven theory that you won't even engage in freindly debate.

I think you are afraid. Afraid to explore ( not neccesarily believe) but explore a new and viable belief system that could unite science and theology. Because you my discover some facts that my cause you to question your views. And that is scary to you.

Its kind of sad. You are now no different than the religeous freaks who persecuted and a attacked Darwin in his day.

I’ve had many discussions on here as well as off here man, and it always goes the same way. You try to have a civil conversation and even though you might not be talking about god or religion they always attack it like their mad at god. even if it wasn’t even brought up in the whole conversation, you just say you don’t believe that man evolved from muck, and they will shoot death arrows at god and Christians out of no where.
 
Evolution is not a theory, it is an observed fact. The only theoretical aspect is the mechanism by which it occurs.
 
Lestat said:
I am "paranoid" as pin puts it, of lies being taught as truth. That should scare anybody.


it took 300 years before the church accepted a spherical earth and

a heliocentric system. evolution is a mere 150 years old, give 'em

another 150, they'll come around lol! :heart:
 
javaguru said:
Which side has the evidence? Just sayin'


Correct, but the whole Christian stand point is that you have historical, archaeological and biblical evidence, and if you want to go there you have spiritual evidence as well. but the whole point is that at first it takes a step of faith and then it all comes together, that’s the whole point, if Jesus or god was your neighbor or president, then everyone would believe, god wants you to want to seek him and the truth. He gives you a choice, free will to except him and seek him or not, he’s not going to force you to love him.

That’s why I don’t think we will have or need anymore evidence for god until he comes back and judges us, it’s not like if someone found Noah’s ark would change anyone’s minds today, they would just be like “nice boat” whatever! let’s go play xbox
 
big_bad_buff said:
Correct, but the whole Christian stand point is that you have historical, archaeological and biblical evidence, and if you want to go there you have spiritual evidence as well. but the whole point is that at first it takes a step of faith and then it all comes together, that’s the whole point, if Jesus or god was your neighbor or president, then everyone would believe, god wants you to want to seek him and the truth. He gives you a choice, free will to except him and seek him or not, he’s not going to force you to love him.

That’s why I don’t think we will have or need anymore evidence for god until he comes back and judges us, it’s not like if someone found Noah’s ark would change anyone’s minds today, they would just be like “nice boat” whatever! let’s go play xbox

how can you use the books that make up the theory of creation to support themselves as evidence as well?

And how on earth do you know so much about what god wants? Lemme guess, those same books that told you how man came to be also told you that god wants you to seek him. He couldn't be bothered to tell you himself I guess?
 
Lestat said:
are you stupid?

Darwinism is build on evidence, it can be changed, and new evidence is found all the time. Did you not read my post right?



DUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! evidence for what? seriously, do you not know they will never be able to prove that we evolved? do you know that you will be dead in 60 years or less, and will still have no evidence for it.

the previous post was right, it takes more faith to believe in that than it does in god.....how much research have you done on the bible and the historical, archaeological facts? just wondeing, much repsect to you if you actually have done some hardcore research on it because most people from your stand point has done none with an open mind. that's why i think most evolutionist are mad at god, because they refuse too
 
literally millions of pieces of evidence. a thousand museums chock full

of factoids. every discipline of science on all 7 continents converge

on THE FACT of evolution for 150 years running..........

why are we having this conversation?

" by denying scientific principals, one may maintain any paradox"

Galileo.
 
i'm guessing you didnt read what i wrote. what would you do if you woke up and turned on the news and every scientist there is was up on the screen and were telling the world that it was all a hoax. where would you be then? have you ever seen any of this "evidence" yourself, or just going by what humans tell you? FAITH?

Lestat said:
how can you use the books that make up the theory of creation to support themselves as evidence as well?

And how on earth do you know so much about what god wants? Lemme guess, those same books that told you how man came to be also told you that god wants you to seek him. He couldn't be bothered to tell you himself I guess?
 
show me one piece of evidence supporting the fact that humans evolved over billions of years without taking me any ammount of faith to beleive it. you cant because the whole thoery is based on time and faith.

150 years? eh and it takes billions for us to evolve? hmmm that's some time and some faith you got there

layinback said:
literally millions of pieces of evidence. a thousand museums chock full

of factoids. every discipline of science on all 7 continents converge

on THE FACT of evolution for 150 years running..........

why are we having this conversation?

" by denying scientific principals, one may maintain any paradox"

Galileo.
 
big_bad_buff said:
DUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! evidence for what? seriously, do you not know they will never be able to prove that we evolved? do you know that you will be dead in 60 years or less, and will still have no evidence for it.

the previous post was right, it takes more faith to believe in that than it does in god.....how much research have you done on the bible and the historical, archaeological facts? just wondeing, much repsect to you if you actually have done some hardcore research on it because most people from your stand point has done none with an open mind. that's why i think most evolutionist are mad at god, because they refuse too


i've studied the bible in depth. it advocates murder, sexual abuse and

slavery. it has been completely debunked a thousand times over.

i'm from the buckle of the bible belt bro, i read all 66 books before i

turned 12. since then, i've studied the gnostic gospels, dead sea scrolls etc...

the bible is a blood thirsty document with no redeeming qualities.

it has caused more death and misery than any one book on the planet.

you have a naive and myopic view.

i am very spiritual, i have taught my sons to go beyond their ego.

i believe that an underlying spiritual mechanism is in place in the

universe. truth with a capital T, is the most dangerous thing on earth.

religion will probably be mankind's undoing.
 
big_bad_buff said:
I’ve had many discussions on here as well as off here man, and it always goes the same way. You try to have a civil conversation and even though you might not be talking about god or religion they always attack it like their mad at god. even if it wasn’t even brought up in the whole conversation, you just say you don’t believe that man evolved from muck, and they will shoot death arrows at god and Christians out of no where.


ok mr. christian- steroid dude, help me out here. give me a LOGICAL

explanation for these seemingly ghoulish bible verses:


INSTRUCTIONS FOR MURDERING CHILDREN - ISAIAH 14:21

KILL WOMEN WHO ARE NOT VIRGINS ON WEDDING NIGHT - DEUTERONOMY

22:20-21 NAB

DEATH FOR CURSING PARENTS - LEVITICUS 20:9 NLT

KILL PEOPLE WHO DON'T LISTEN - DEUTERONOMY 17:12 NLT

KILL GAYS - LEVITICUS 20:13 NAB

GOD CONDONES MURDER AND RAPE - NUMBERS 31:7-18 NLT

ADVOCATING SEX SLAVERY - EXODUS 21:7-11

NEW TESTAMENT SLAVERY- EPHESIANS 6:5 NLT

JESUS ADVOCATES BEATING SLAVES - LUKE 12:47


i will post 50 more if you like, this is the tip of the iceberg. please give

us a reasonable explanation for the aforementioned verses and i will STFU.
 
pin said:
Where did DNA come from?

How did the very first living creature reproduce?

What did it eat?

People confuse evolution with the origins of life.

They are not the same thing.

Evolution is happening now, it is a biological process and there is more than enough evidence for it.

The origins of the universe and life, different kettle of fish.
 
big_bad_buff said:
show me one piece of evidence supporting the fact that humans evolved over billions of years without taking me any ammount of faith to beleive it. you cant because the whole thoery is based on time and faith.

150 years? eh and it takes billions for us to evolve? hmmm that's some time and some faith you got there
There are numerous examples.

The one that clued Darwin in was how different species evolved differently depending on where in the world they were located. He saw unique adaptations to their environment.

For example, a species would start off as a single species, then as continents or Islands would drift, those members of the species that were isolated would evolve in similar, parallel, but distinctly different paths.

There are volumes of evidence to support evolution bro, its a fact, I don't know who told you it requires faith (because it doesn't) or that its mathmatically impossible (that's a new one for me) but it sounds like you are the type who is gonna believe whatever they WANT to believe, regardless of whatever evidence there is to disprove or prove what you want to believe as truth.

When dealing with people like that you are right, it is the end of discussion.
 
The only faith that belief in evolution requires is the faith in your own senses to observe the obvious.
 
layinback said:
ok mr. christian- steroid dude, help me out here. give me a LOGICAL

explanation for these seemingly ghoulish bible verses:


INSTRUCTIONS FOR MURDERING CHILDREN - ISAIAH 14:21

KILL WOMEN WHO ARE NOT VIRGINS ON WEDDING NIGHT - DEUTERONOMY

22:20-21 NAB

DEATH FOR CURSING PARENTS - LEVITICUS 20:9 NLT

KILL PEOPLE WHO DON'T LISTEN - DEUTERONOMY 17:12 NLT

KILL GAYS - LEVITICUS 20:13 NAB

GOD CONDONES MURDER AND RAPE - NUMBERS 31:7-18 NLT

ADVOCATING SEX SLAVERY - EXODUS 21:7-11

NEW TESTAMENT SLAVERY- EPHESIANS 6:5 NLT

JESUS ADVOCATES BEATING SLAVES - LUKE 12:47


i will post 50 more if you like, this is the tip of the iceberg. please give

us a reasonable explanation for the aforementioned verses and i will STFU.

LV and NUMBERS - all acts during war

The Midianites (im sure i spelled it wrong) were not peaceful people who were attacked while they were sleeping in their peaceful, grassy, sunny little village. They sacrificed their own babies on the alters of their own golden gods. God instructed them to wipe out their enemies. They were constantly raging war against the israelites, burning their food to leave them nothing to eat.
 
cindylou said:
LV and NUMBERS - all acts during war

The Midianites (im sure i spelled it wrong) were not peaceful people who were attacked while they were sleeping in their peaceful, grassy, sunny little village. They sacrificed their own babies on the alters of their own golden gods. God instructed them to wipe out their enemies. They were constantly raging war against the israelites, burning their food to leave them nothing to eat.
Didn't the Israelite king claim they had WMD's too??? :) Never trust a history written by the victors.
 
Darwin's book was NOT entitled "Origin of THE Species"

the title was

"On The ORIGIN of SPECIES" which changes the entire meaning of the phrase.

The first, and incorrect, title you used implies that Darwin was talking about where man came from. The second, and correct, title implies that Darwin was talking about how we got so many different kinds of animals.
 
cindylou said:
LV and NUMBERS - all acts during war

The Midianites (im sure i spelled it wrong) were not peaceful people who were attacked while they were sleeping in their peaceful, grassy, sunny little village. They sacrificed their own babies on the alters of their own golden gods. God instructed them to wipe out their enemies. They were constantly raging war against the israelites, burning their food to leave them nothing to eat.


oh silly me..........acts during war, totally justified!!!

i'm sure all of gods mandates were justified. after all, he is god lol.

we didn't address the bibles instructions on selling your daughter

to the sex slave industry. how about the bibles advocacy of slavery.

how do you explain that? what is more evil than child murder and

slavery? like most that defend the bibles positions, you've been selective

(and totally ineffective), and have skipped over the indefensible.

really, i am dumbfounded at how incredibly delusional you folks are.

how do you make yourself so blind to the glaring barbarism and

contradictory nature of the bible? are you that afraid of your mortality

and the unknown? does this childish and simple approach to life, give

you some form of cold comfort? can't you see that life is precious

without such beliefs and morality can be achieved authentically?

why is it necessary to commit intellectual suicide?
 
cindylou said:
LV and NUMBERS - all acts during war

The Midianites (im sure i spelled it wrong) were not peaceful people who were attacked while they were sleeping in their peaceful, grassy, sunny little village. They sacrificed their own babies on the alters of their own golden gods. God instructed them to wipe out their enemies. They were constantly raging war against the israelites, burning their food to leave them nothing to eat.
So its historical record. Why do people use that, which makes little sense OUT of its historical context, as the basis for some modern day morality??? Was that the intent?
 
why must I be called delusional? Really? Childish approach to life? I guess you must get personal with me I suppose.

Intellectual suicide? Your post was nothing but insults to me. Nothing more than that.

I could defend all of those bible passages, but your ego is so big I'll bet you think you are the only one who had thought of that before, dont you?

I just picked those two because it was an easy quick reply. I dont have time to sit and defend the Bible with a bunch of fools whose heads are so blown up that they cant let God in any god for that matter - or remind you of your own hypocracy trying to point out how immoral my god is. The fact that you are so quick to condemn God using morality in the Bible shows me that you are not being fair or logical. Whats the point?
 
pin said:
Wow man. When Darwin proposed the theory of evolution he had no idea that DNA exsisted. Nucliotides, intercellular transport, mitochodrea, amino acids, RNA, miosis, mitosis, blood clotting, etc. etc. He had no clue. The DNA sequence has billions of bits of info. If you printed it all out you could fill the grand canyon w/ books. I would definately call that new evidence.

It was easy for him to imagine a lifeform rising out of the muck because he thought a cell was just a tiny bag of goo and there wasn't much to it.

"If it could be demonstrated that any complex ogan exsisted which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my THEORY would absolutely break down." -Charles Darwin

OK. How would the first living creatures survive an injury w/out a blood clotting mechanism?

an irreducibly complex system is one composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning.

How did the first creatures survive a hostile universe in their infancy w/out fully functional digestive, reproductive, ciculatory and respatory systems in place? If they can't survive in the first place they cant reproduce stronger offspring able to evolve at all.

As for the first creatures, think bacteria. They still live in some of the harshest environments on the planet.

Single celled organisms do not have digestive systems, and they reproduce by asexual reproduction, or binary fission.



These are legitemate questions that evolutionary theory cannot answer as of yet. So why not objectively explore design theory to see where it lead? Apart from organized religeon.

Again, collapsing how different species arise or evolve, and the origin of life.

Evolution does not explain, nor has it ever claimed to explain the origin of life.
 
Does anyone remember when they were not alive?

How do you know that you didn't previously exist? just askin.
 
pin said:
Thats right. Evolution is far from proven. It is a theory only. It should be taught and explored. But it shouldn't be taught as a fact. Those that teach it as fact are just as guilty as religeous folks who teach their beliefs as fact.

If you believe in something that is not proven it is a religeon.

You are confusing colloquial 'theory' with scientific theory.

A scientific theory is based on facts.

It is proven, there is more than ample evidence for it, and there has been for at least 100 years.

I think people are worried that if evolution is true, which it is, it means that God does not exist.

That evolution has occurred and is occurring, means that species have evolved, we are evolving, nothing more, nothing less.


There are perfect fossil records for some of the most important stages in evolution, for example the transition from the ocean (bony finned fish) to amphibians and paramammals/reptiles.

There are even living fossils, perfect transition species, like the coelacanth.



Besides this, there is also evidence that is demonstrating genetic drift now.

It is really quite amazing when you see all the evidence.
 
I've been around for a few thousand years. I was all the rage over at goldrushusa.com and genghissuckballs.com back in the day.

Obviously we came from "something". What that something is, probably has so much fucking power - then we could never even possibly fathom it in our puny little minds (you know, like an "image", "voice", etc.). It's probably some random invisible gas out right now in sector 99 squadron A universe 9999. Kinda defeats the romanticism of some old white guy with a beard and robe "creating us".

r
 
cindylou said:
why must I be called delusional? Really? Childish approach to life? I guess you must get personal with me I suppose.

Intellectual suicide? Your post was nothing but insults to me. Nothing more than that.

I could defend all of those bible passages, but your ego is so big I'll bet you think you are the only one who had thought of that before, dont you?

I just picked those two because it was an easy quick reply. I dont have time to sit and defend the Bible with a bunch of fools whose heads are so blown up that they cant let God in any god for that matter - or remind you of your own hypocracy trying to point out how immoral my god is. The fact that you are so quick to condemn God using morality in the Bible shows me that you are not being fair or logical. Whats the point?
The bible is simply the bad literature of bronze age primitives, that's the point. :)
 
Razorguns said:
I've been around for a few thousand years. I was all the rage over at goldrushusa.com and genghissuckballs.com back in the day.

Obviously we came from "something". What that something is, probably has so much fucking power - then we could never even possibly fathom it in our puny little minds (you know, like an "image", "voice", etc.). It's probably some random invisible gas out right now in sector 99 squadron A universe 9999. Kinda defeats the romanticism of some old white guy with a beard and robe "creating us".

r
If you look at the world, things evolve from simple, to complex. What evidence makes you think that we came from something really powerful?

And if so, how that that really powerful something come to be? From something even MORE powerful?

Where did THAT come from then?

Look at the evidence bro.
 
MightyMouse69 said:
What in good God are you talking about!! It's a theory!


As I said, people are often not familiar with the language of science, and it lends itself to confusion.

Theory does not mean the same thing in science as it would to most in general conversation.

For example, take the theory of gravity.

Do we know exactly how it works? No

If something is discovered about gravitons or unified field theory (ok where is Samoth, this is not my area :)) are apples going to stop falling to earth? No

That gravity exists is a FACT, exactly how it happens?

We know a lot more about evolution, it can be explained




And a bit more of an elaborate description:


The word theory has many distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on their methodologies and the context of discussion.

In science a theory is a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation. For the scientist, "theory" is not in any way an antonym of "fact". For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behavior are Newton's theory of universal gravitation (see also gravitation), and the general theory of relativity.

In common usage, the word theory is often used to signify a conjecture, an opinion, a speculation, or a hypothesis. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. This usage of theory leads to the common incorrect statements. True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements which would be true independently of what people think about them.

According to the National Academy of Sciences,

Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature that is supported by many facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.[1]
 
Lestat said:
Where did THAT come from then?

Look at the evidence bro.

I don't know. But I do know our puny tiny little minds are AMOEBAS compared to whatever this entitys is.

It's like an ant trying to figure out a nuclear reactor. We've been around what, 10,000 years? A few billion have come and gone from the planet. Not a single soul has been able to figure it out.

But hey, if you think you can do it (stupid theories are useless) - knock yourself out.

But when I die, I'll let you know.

r
 
LOL, we are talking about religion - not an apple falling from a tree....what a farce.


Tatyana said:
As I said, people are often not familiar with the language of science, and it lends itself to confusion.

Theory does not mean the same thing in science as it would to most in general conversation.

For example, take the theory of gravity.

Do we know exactly how it works? No

If something is discovered about gravitons or unified field theory (ok where is Samoth, this is not my area :)) are apples going to stop falling to earth? No




And a bit more of an elaborate description:


The word theory has many distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on their methodologies and the context of discussion.

In science a theory is a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation. For the scientist, "theory" is not in any way an antonym of "fact". For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behavior are Newton's theory of universal gravitation (see also gravitation), and the general theory of relativity.

In common usage, the word theory is often used to signify a conjecture, an opinion, a speculation, or a hypothesis. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. This usage of theory leads to the common incorrect statements. True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements which would be true independently of what people think about them.

According to the National Academy of Sciences,

Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature that is supported by many facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.[1]
 
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