NY and NO - complete opposites when tragedy strikes?

[MattTheSkywalker]

I was in NY on 9/11 and for the time afterwards. NY-ers seemed to act with complete civility and even courteousy.

NYers seemed to pitch in and help out local law enforcement types.

Even after hundreds of them were killed, FDNY and NYPD did not lose all their morale and "take advantage".

In the aftermath, NYers seemed to rebound and carry on.


What's the difference? Is it the nature of the disaster? man made vs. natural?

Is it the locality of the disaster: one hit a narrow area and another a wider area.

Is it because much of NO's better-off population had evacuated, leaving the poorest to fend for themselves?

Or is it the people themselves?

 

[jacked clown]

MMMMM...Young Skywalker, great point you have made...

 

[Dial_tone]

Perhaps it has to do with the aggressive 'take charge' personalities of NY'ers versus the laid back 'wait til someone (preferably the govt) comes' approach of southerners/poor people.

 

[Evil_Frisky]

Everyone in the entire city of NO knows they have nothing. Everyone is a victim.

 

[hamstershaver]

the destruction of nyc was confined to a few blocks
the destruction of no was city wide
that being said cities in florida were decimated last year, the only difference being that sea water didnt stay in the cities for days afterwards, yet looting was fairly minimal in florida

 

[bullett]

Good Point, but not aware of any significant looting opportunities from 911..

And yes, the mix of poor would be dramatically different.

 

[ChefWide]

infrastructure is the first and largest defining difference:

I NY we had all the bridges and tunnels intact, and one of the two largest OEPs in the world. No obstructions to get to the site and virtually no 'refugees' to speak of, the WFC was a working envrioment with only minimal Tribecca and Battery park city residents displaced: numbering in the thousands, yes, but not the hundreds of thousands.

Really, on an effective level: there is no comparison between the two events either in scope or standard.

 

[Vicious cycle]

NY and NO - complete opposites when tragedy strikes?

No they are not. NY gets wiped out like NO did and you'll see those that are left (Black, White, Green, whatever) doing the same thing.

We are talking about the entire city, not just two buildings that were knocked down. Ny'ers are a little more battle hardened as well I think.

 

[jacked clown]

Yea ever since Armegedon and Independence Day happened in New York the people seem to be able to take anything...

 

[gotmilk]

Gumbo.

Hey Matt..remember the bank I was trying to buy? Their building was wrecked big time.

 

[nycgirl]

You cannot compare the two situations. Two different types of disasters. 9/11 affected a tiny part of NYC. The entire infrastructure of NYC was not affected. Life still went on in the other boroughs and other parts of Manhattan. The subway still ran, hospitals were still open, despite the huge amounts of law enforcement at the scene, other areas were still being taken care of, jails were not emptied, etc.

W/ regard to the people, yes there is a difference. You and I both know that New Yorkers are unique. But I have to LOL at your first sentence, we are always courteous and civil (in our own special way).

Oh, and I disagree with you on the FDNY not losing their morale. From what I read in the news, clothing and other items were taken from the shops below those towers. People witnessed this behavior.

 

[CENTURION44]

Perhaps it has to do with the aggressive 'take charge' personalities of NY'ers versus the laid back 'wait til someone (preferably the govt) comes' approach of southerners/poor people.

GREAT POINT DT...New Yorkers can be some of the biggest peices of shit...but most of them can and do fend for themselves....I dont know what life is like in N.O. but it certainly seems like allot of people are just complaining and not acting...

 

[big4life]

NY still had places to get food and water. New Orleans has nothing left.

 

[Evil_Frisky]

....I dont know what life is like in N.O. but it certainly seems like allot of people are just complaining and not acting...

I'm sorry........ but what are they supposed to do? EVERYONE that is in the city is stranded.. NO FOOD NO WATER NO ELECTRICTY.

Complaining.. fucking right they are complaining. Its the damn Federal Gov't that isn't acting.

They acted faster after the damn war in Iraq to get aid there than they are their own citizens.

 

[bb079]

i think that it is a little of both. there are people in new orleans who are doing what they have to to ensure the survival of themselves and their families. i could not look at my 7 year old while he is hungry and thirsty and not do anything about it. and then there are those who are thinking about one thing, and that is taking advantage of the situation and the suffering of others to benefit themselves. they should be hunted down and shot. and the point about new orleans and the south being laid back, this is correct. being from louisiana i have been doing alot of thinking on this, and although i do not like to admit it, we got caught with our pants down, and although we are not totally to blame, the poor planning aspect for such a situation does mostly rest on our shoulders.

 

[ohashi]

While as a New Yorker I agree that NO is a lazy city compared to NYC, I would like to point out that if NYC had been leveled completely, the ghetto trash would indeed come out of the woodwork and the situation in NO (looting, shooting, etc) would mirror on a smaller scale. The city would be able to contain it, though, since our public servants are actually competent, and a lot of people woud love to take a chance to clean up the ghetto under a self-proclaimed Martial Law.

 

[ChefWide]

I'm sorry........ but what are they supposed to do? EVERYONE that is in the city is stranded.. NO FOOD NO WATER NO ELECTRICTY.

Complaining.. fucking right they are complaining. Its the damn Federal Gov't that isn't acting.

They acted faster after the damn war in Iraq to get aid there than they are to their own citizens.

Fills a person with disgust, really.

 

[eat big]

I think the difference is man made vs. natural. They had someon to pin their problems on. Meaning, there was someone responsible for the events. Plus not all of New York was destroyed, just two towers (still horrible). I don't think it's on the same grand scale at all.

 

[nycgirl]

infrastructure is the first and largest defining difference:I NY we had all the bridges and tunnels intact, and one of the two largest OEPs in the world. No obstructions to get to the site and virtually no 'refugees' to speak of, the WFC was a working envrioment with only minimal Tribecca and Battery park city residents displaced: numbering in the thousands, yes, but not the hundreds of thousands.
Really, on an effective level: there is no comparison between the two events either in scope or standard.

Agreed.

You cannot compare what some would call the "Financial Capital" of the world to a city as poor as New Orleans (or the whole state of Louisiana for that matter).

Ohashi, yes the ghetto trash would have came out. But, the NYPD would have been able to handle it. NYC has a history of always being prepared. Also, New Yorkers would not have put up with it.

 

[ohashi]

I dunno, I would loot me a local Gold's Gym, steal someone's house, and sit there with a 24-pack of Pepsi if that happened.

 

[redguru]

I know that Pensacola is a city of only 200,000. But it was just as devastated by Ivan, with no way in or out. The Escambia Bay Bridge on I-10, the US90 causeway and the road US98 were washed out. Looting was very isolated.

 

[big4life]

I have no problem with the people getting food, water, dry clothes, or what ever they need to survive. As for the people stealing just to be stealing, the gators can have them.

 

[jacked clown]

I think I might invest in some property done in NO now...I mean it has to be cheap. Hell im gonna buy it all, make it a different country, elect myself as Pharoh, and rule with a iron fist...

 

[hamstershaver]

I know that Pensacola is a city of only 200,000. But it was just as devastated by Ivan, with no way in or out. The Escambia Bay Bridge on I-10, the US90 causeway and the road US98 were washed out. Looting was very isolated.

that is the same thing i was saying
people tend to forget how bad florida was hit last year, since the news coverage was no where near as big as it is for n.o.
there are still thousands of houses that have not been fixed from last years hurricanes that hit florida
charlie was also a cat 4 that hit florida last year and destroyed what it hit also,
there were numerous cities in florida that were without power for over a month straight last year after the cat 4s came through with gigantic storm surges, yet the conduct of floridians compared to residents of n.o. are polar opposites
looting was very minimal in florida last year
its amazing how quickly people forget unless you lived through it

 

[jdynasty]

Good Point, but not aware of any significant looting opportunities from 911..

And yes, the mix of poor would be dramatically different.

is that your final answer, must we forget that people stole millions out of the ATM's in NYC

 

[Lestat]

good points.

I think the answer is simple.

The people in NO are the poorest of the poor with NOTHING to lose, and very little to live for now. They don't take pride in their city or situation because it isn't a source of joy for them.

 

[jdynasty]

Survival of the fittest I say, overpopulate and something happens, nature's way of letting us know that we really are not in control

 

[CENTURION44]

I'm sorry........ but what are they supposed to do? EVERYONE that is in the city is stranded.. NO FOOD NO WATER NO ELECTRICTY.

Complaining.. fucking right they are complaining. Its the damn Federal Gov't that isn't acting.

They acted faster after the damn war in Iraq to get aid there than they are their own citizens.

True, But why stay....i guarentee atleast 80% of the "SRANDED" people had someone either family or friends that they could have had come get them..even if they dont have cars....EVERYONE knows someone with one...shit a greyhound bus ticket is like $40 to anywher in the US...I agree the govt did not act as fast as they should have but....there wouldnt be such a disaster or immediate need for evacuation if they would have just left in the first place... So yes i do sympathize with them but some people chose to stay...and for those who saught out shelter in the super dome they are being transported...and if THUGS werent running rampant in the streets the would have been transported ALLOT sooner...either way it is a horrible thing that happend...but there is no need for the people who are crying for help..to make harder on anyone for trying to help...

 

[nycgirl]

True, But why stay....i guarentee atleast 80% of the "SRANDED" people had someone either family or friends that they could have had come get them..even if they dont have cars....EVERYONE knows someone with one...shit a greyhound bus ticket is like $40 to anywher in the US

You are so wrong. Not everyone knows someone. Just because you have family, doesn't mean they will be there for you. And if the person you know is just as poor and can't leave, then that person can only help so much.

Some of us have have lifetime memberships or pay 35.00 every four months to post on a damn website (including myself). My biggest problem this week was cancelling a trip to Disney World. It easy for us to say, oh a Greyhound ticket is $40.00. Those that have been to New Orleans know how poor of a city it is. It is sad to think that there are parts of this country that are that poor.

Do I condone the behavior of the Thugs? No, of course not.

 

[bullett]

is that your final answer, must we forget that people stole millions out of the ATM's in NYC

Never heard that.......Where were these ATM's located? If they were within the WTC, they would have burned up, if they were in surrounding areas, they were secure, I suppose. Are you saying that they were ransacked due to lack of police coverage due to 911?

 

[Breeze]

Perhaps it has to do with the aggressive 'take charge' personalities of NY'ers versus the laid back 'wait til someone (preferably the govt) comes' approach of southerners/poor people.

You must not know many Southerners. The South was not "waiting" for the gov. when it left the union in favor of state's rights and Southerners are not dependent on the gov. now. The traits you describe are in certain people all over the country.

 

[Breeze]

Agreed.

You cannot compare what some would call the "Financial Capital" of the world to a city as poor as New Orleans (or the whole state of Louisiana for that matter).

Ohashi, yes the ghetto trash would have came out. But, the NYPD would have been able to handle it. NYC has a history of always being prepared. Also, New Yorkers would not have put up with it.

There are plenty of people outside of NO who won't put up with it either.

 

[akita27]

I was in NY on 9/11 and for the time afterwards. NY-ers seemed to act with complete civility and even courteousy.

NYers seemed to pitch in and help out local law enforcement types.

Even after hundreds of them were killed, FDNY and NYPD did not lose all their morale and "take advantage".

In the aftermath, NYers seemed to rebound and carry on.


What's the difference? Is it the nature of the disaster? man made vs. natural?

Is it the locality of the disaster: one hit a narrow area and another a wider area.

Is it because much of NO's better-off population had evacuated, leaving the poorest to fend for themselves?

Or is it the people themselves?

I would say that New Yorkers have a higher average IQ than the citizens of New Orleans.

 

[jdynasty]

Never heard that.......Where were these ATM's located? If they were within the WTC, they would have burned up, if they were in surrounding areas, they were secure, I suppose. Are you saying that they were ransacked due to lack of police coverage due to 911?

the line that runs to the exchange that keeps track of all ATM transactions was severed, they knew about it and decided to leave it on in case people need emergency funds. so people were using there cards and overdrawing there accounts, one guy alone withdrew 15000 dollars

 

[Hiatussin]

I think the nature of the disaster is a big part in it. NYC wasnt covered in sewage shoulder high and wrecked all over.

In NYC the people in need of rescue were all concentrated in one spot

 

[bdog527]

Poor comparison.

The city wide destruction of New Orleans has crippled the emergency response teams. Coupled with no power, no mobility and the large population of people that have been effected makes this an almost unprecedented event.

 

[CENTURION44]

You are so wrong. Not everyone knows someone. Just because you have family, doesn't mean they will be there for you. And if the person you know is just as poor and can't leave, then that person can only help so much.

Some of us have have lifetime memberships or pay 35.00 every four months to post on a damn website (including myself). My biggest problem this week was cancelling a trip to Disney World. It easy for us to say, oh a Greyhound ticket is $40.00. Those that have been to New Orleans know how poor of a city it is. It is sad to think that there are parts of this country that are that poor.

Do I condone the behavior of the Thugs? No, of course not.

Reread what i wrote...I said %80 of teh stranded people did probably have a way out...and $40 for a bus ticket..how not....poor folks..not all..but some can scrape together enough for a few bags of heroin or whatever their poison is...but cant buy a bus ticket..BULLSHIT

 

[nycgirl]

Reread what i wrote...I said %80 of teh stranded people did probably have a way out...and $40 for a bus ticket..how not....poor folks..not all..but some can scrape together enough for a few bags of heroin or whatever their poison is...but cant buy a bus ticket..BULLSHIT

Are you including the ederly & sick in your 80%? Exactly how did you come up with this number?

A way out and having the means to get out are two different things. Also most of the damage that occurred happened after the hurricane hit when the levees broke. Imagine walking out of your home onto dry land and then a few hours later having water at your shoulders.

And how is poor family of 3-5 suppose to scrape up $40.00 per person for bus tickets at the last minute?

 

[CENTURION44]

Are you including the ederly & sick in your 80%? Exactly how did you come up with this number?

A way out and having the means to get out are two different things. Also most of the damage that occurred happened after the hurricane hit when the levees broke. Imagine walking out of your home onto dry land and then a few hours later having water at your shoulders.

And how is poor family of 3-5 suppose to scrape up $40.00 per person for bus tickets at the last minute?

No i am not including th sick and elderly...but again...Everyone was aware of this atleast 4 days before it hit...so it wasnt exactly last minute...and of course the levees broke..it was a cat 4-5 hurricane....why risk it at all is my poiint.....

 

[GoldenDelicious]

the difference comes down to one word.

desperation.

 

[Evil_Frisky]

No i am not including th sick and elderly...but again...Everyone was aware of this atleast 4 days before it hit...so it wasnt exactly last minute...and of course the levees broke..it was a cat 4-5 hurricane....why risk it at all is my poiint.....

and you honestly believe that 4 days was enough time to evaucuate over 500,000 people?

Did you see the roads and the traffic how backed up? Nursing homes, Prisions, Hospitals...

Some stayed yes but you nor I can put a number on the amt of people that had NO way out.

Have you ever been to NO? Walked the streets? The city is filled with homeless..every where you turn. What do they do? No one came for them!

There was NO mass evacuation plan set. It would have been near impossible to evacuate that entire city in the limited amount of time they had.

 

[CENTURION44]

and you honestly believe that 4 days was enough time to evaucuate over 500,000 people?

Did you see the roads and the traffic how backed up? Nursing homes, Prisions, Hospitals...

Some stayed yes but you nor I can put a number on the amt of people that had NO way out.

Have you ever been to NO? Walked the streets? The city is filled with homeless..every where you turn. What do they do? No one came for them!

There was NO mass evacuation plan set. It would have been near impossible to evacuate that entire city in the limited amount of time they had.

Yes I saw the roads and they were EMPTY until the day before/day of...which is just rediculous IMHO...And not everyone was traveling in the same direction....

 

[Burning_Inside]

I was in NY on 9/11 and for the time afterwards. NY-ers seemed to act with complete civility and even courteousy.

NYers seemed to pitch in and help out local law enforcement types.

Even after hundreds of them were killed, FDNY and NYPD did not lose all their morale and "take advantage".

In the aftermath, NYers seemed to rebound and carry on.


What's the difference? Is it the nature of the disaster? man made vs. natural?

Is it the locality of the disaster: one hit a narrow area and another a wider area.

Is it because much of NO's better-off population had evacuated, leaving the poorest to fend for themselves?

Or is it the people themselves?

Could also be that relief efforts to get the people out of there are not happening as promised. People are feeling abandoned. In NYC relief came immediately, here in this case from what I've read it's pretty sparse.

 

[CENTURION44]

where is all the help from neighboring states...shit ON 9-11...NJ..>CT..PA and numerous other states were here within hours....whys everyone crying about the government...people should be coming from all over to help....but I suspect they are not because of the animalistic behavior down there

 

[Vicious cycle]

They acted faster after the damn war in Iraq to get aid there than they are their own citizens.

Can I get a Hell yeah!

 

[Burning_Inside]

Call me crazy but I think Katrina was secretly made by the U.S government to "cleanse" the U.S.

 

[nycgirl]

where is all the help from neighboring states...shit ON 9-11...NJ..>CT..PA and numerous other states were here within hours....whys everyone crying about the government...people should be coming from all over to help....but I suspect they are not because of the animalistic behavior down there

The D.C. Government is sending buses to New Orleans & Houston today and tomorrow. I'm sure other State & Local governments will follow.

 

[CENTURION44]

ok but where were they yesterday and the day before....people keep comparing the efforts to 9-11 but their neighbors arent helping worth a damn

 

[Evil_Frisky]

ok but where were they yesterday and the day before....people keep comparing the efforts to 9-11 but their neighbors arent helping worth a damn

So very true... they are taking this situation to lightly

 

[Spartacus]

where is all the help from neighboring states...shit ON 9-11...NJ..>CT..PA and numerous other states were here within hours....whys everyone crying about the government...people should be coming from all over to help....but I suspect they are not because of the animalistic behavior down there

I could provide housing to a couple of cute tulane coeds

 

[gjohnson5]

I agree that the 2 situations cannot be prepared
To kinda sorta agree with golden delicious it does come down to one word... Money

Those with $$$ and means in NO fled
Those without found themselves hopeless and stranded

 

[CENTURION44]

I could provide housing to a couple of cute tulane coeds

As would I

 

[Burning_Inside]

I agree that the 2 situations cannot be prepared
To kinda sorta agree with golden delicious it does come down to one word... Money

Those with $$$ and means in NO fled
Those without found themselves hopeless and stranded

How stupid do you have to be...If you are ABLE to leave (not in a hospital or jail) to NOT leave after all the warnings, and come on, how poor do you have to be to not afford a busride, and if you're that poor how lazy do you have to be not start walking?

There's very few excuses why that many people should still be left there.

 

[gjohnson5]

I know that Pensacola is a city of only 200,000. But it was just as devastated by Ivan, with no way in or out. The Escambia Bay Bridge on I-10, the US90 causeway and the road US98 were washed out. Looting was very isolated.

The problem with this comparison.
1. pensacola doesn't have 1.5 million people
2. pensacola is not below sea level
3. pensacola does not need levee's to keep water out of town
4. pensacola is not surrounded on all sides by water
5. The mississippi river does not flow through pensacola

enough , even this cannot be compared

 

[gjohnson5]

How stupid do you have to be...If you are ABLE to leave (not in a hospital or jail) to NOT leave after all the warnings, and come on, how poor do you have to be to not afford a busride, and if you're that poor how lazy do you have to be not start walking?

There's very few excuses why that many people should still be left there.

People are just that poor down there. It may be hard for people to fathom but this is infact the case. I've written about how politics edwin edwards and such have picked the bones of that area like vultures. 911 made things much worse as New Orleans depends on tourism $$$

People kill in NO over packs of cigarette or $5. I apologize that but that's just the way it is. You are seeing poverty at it's best and this is probably the reason for the slow federal support

 

[XBiker]

Matt, while an apple and an orange are both fruit with certain similarities, comparing them side by side is foolish.

I do feel for the people who have been affected by this event, but my attitude on the city of New Orleans remains unchanged.

It's a shit hole, has always been a shithole and will more than likely stay that way.

 

[gjohnson5]

It's a shit hole, has always been a shithole and will more than likely stay that way.

As much as I love new orleans , I'm not sure if I can disagree with the above

 

[nycgirl]

People are just that poor down there. It may be hard for people to fathom but this is infact the case. I've written about how politics edwin edwards and such have picked the bones of that area like vultures. 911 made things much worse as New Orleans depends on tourism $$$
People kill in NO over packs of cigarette or $5. I apologize that but that's just the way it is. You are seeing poverty at it's best and this is probably the reason for the slow federal support

I don't think people understand how poor New Orleans is. As I stated in another post, the poorest neighborhood in New York City is no where near as poor as New Orleans. Unlike other cities, where you can avoid the poor (and/or some cities do a good job hiding them), you see it immediately when you arrive there. Actually, poor is the wrong word to use.

You are right, it is poverty at is finest.

 

[chefbone]

I can't believe some of the comments on this thread. As a former NY'er whom was in harms way on 9/11, I refuse to comment based on my ability to get under people's skin.
Sincerely,
Chef "the racist, bigot, hater, white trash, 12% African(black), biased" bone

 

[gjohnson5]

I don't think people understand how poor New Orleans is. As I stated in another post, the poorest neighborhood in New York City is no where near as poor as New Orleans. Unlike other cities, where you can avoid the poor (and/or some cities do a good job hiding them), you see it immediately when you arrive there. Actually, poor is the wrong word to use.

You are right, it is poverty at is finest.

Absolutely...

People still live in un air conditioned slave quarters down there.

 

[redguru]

that is the same thing i was saying
people tend to forget how bad florida was hit last year, since the news coverage was no where near as big as it is for n.o.
there are still thousands of houses that have not been fixed from last years hurricanes that hit florida
charlie was also a cat 4 that hit florida last year and destroyed what it hit also,
there were numerous cities in florida that were without power for over a month straight last year after the cat 4s came through with gigantic storm surges, yet the conduct of floridians compared to residents of n.o. are polar opposites
looting was very minimal in florida last year
its amazing how quickly people forget unless you lived through it

Ye,s the damage is still felt here. Hurricane Dennis destroyed what was left of the blueroofs post-Ivan, people can't find scrupulous roofing contractors. There are still about 5000 people living in FEMA trailers, on thier own property and in supersites. I-10 is still only 1 lane eastbound over Escambia Bay, with temporary bridging still in place. This is going to take longer than weeks and months to fix. Hurricane Ivan photos here. You are right, the conduct is polar opposites. Not sure of the reasoning why. Now I have heard an unsubstantiated rumour that a gang of hoodlums planned a rampage in the aftermath of the Storm. Not sure of the reliability of that, tho. Reports are coming out from the refugees we have in the Pensacola Civic Center.

 

[spongebob]

I was in NY on 9/11 and for the time afterwards. NY-ers seemed to act with complete civility and even courteousy.

NYers seemed to pitch in and help out local law enforcement types.

Even after hundreds of them were killed, FDNY and NYPD did not lose all their morale and "take advantage".

In the aftermath, NYers seemed to rebound and carry on.


What's the difference? Is it the nature of the disaster? man made vs. natural?

Is it the locality of the disaster: one hit a narrow area and another a wider area.

Is it because much of NO's better-off population had evacuated, leaving the poorest to fend for themselves?

Or is it the people themselves?

i attribute some of the differences to a couple of things. for one, aside from the twin towers only lives were lost and that is a tradgedy.

in NO, everything is lost, lives, your house, your job and your car. you have absolutely nothing. imagine, your a 35yr old couple with 3 kids and one day you loose absolutely everything. there is a good chance you are gonna go crazy.