Not eating after lifting

[javaguru]

I think it's fair to conclude that sooner is better than later. Although the study didn't find a statistcally significant difference between one hour and three you are still reversing the negative protein balance caused by an intense workout and restoring muscle glycogen as soon as possible. Blunting protein degradation is also a reason I use a workout shake. I typically advise people to have a shake immediately post workout and then a "normal" bodybulding meal an hour later. In this way you're taking full advanatge of your post workout window and it allows time for the food from the second meal to digest. I've found this protocol imperative if you're going to train intensely five or six days a week.

Ok, here is the study you cited....seems some discrepency in the 1 hr. window. Kind of a leap saying only one hour when the study cites one or 3 hr. Hardly a definitive study to base a whole protocol of 1 hr. window.

Read similar anabolic responses at 1 or 3 h

Not to mention the study was done with all of 6 people, hardly quantifiable evidence.

J Appl Physiol 88: 386-392, 2000;

PubMed

PubMed Citation
Articles by Rasmussen, B. B.
Articles by Wolfe, R. R.

Vol. 88, Issue 2, 386-392, February 2000

An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise
Blake B. Rasmussen, Kevin D. Tipton, Sharon L. Miller, Steven E. Wolf, and Robert R. Wolfe
Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch and Metabolism Unit, Shriners Burns Institute, Galveston, Texas 77550

This study was designed to determine the response of muscle protein to the bolus ingestion of a drink containing essential amino acids and carbohydrate after resistance exercise. Six subjects (3 men, 3 women) randomly consumed a treatment drink (6 g essential amino acids, 35 g sucrose) or a flavored placebo drink 1 h or 3 h after a bout of resistance exercise on two separate occasions. We used a three-compartment model for determination of leg muscle protein kinetics. The model involves the infusion of ring-2H5-phenylalanine, femoral arterial and venous blood sampling, and muscle biopsies. Phenylalanine net balance and muscle protein synthesis were significantly increased above the predrink and corresponding placebo value (P < 0.05) when the drink was taken 1 or 3 h after exercise but not when the placebo was ingested at 1 or 3 h. The response to the amino acid-carbohydrate drink produced similar anabolic responses at 1 and 3 h. Muscle protein breakdown did not change in response to the drink. We conclude that essential amino acids with carbohydrates stimulate muscle protein anabolism by increasing muscle protein synthesis when ingested 1 or 3 h after resistance exercise.

muscle protein synthesis; stable isotopes; nutritional supplementation

 

[Lifterforlife]

I think it's fair to conclude that sooner is better than later. Although the study didn't find a statistcally significant difference between one hour and three you are still reversing the negative protein balance caused by an intense workout and restoring muscle glycogen as soon as possible. Blunting protein degradation is also a reason I use a workout shake. I typically advise people to have a shake immediately post workout and then a "normal" bodybulding meal an hour later. In this way you're taking full advanatge of your post workout window and it allows time for the food from the second meal to digest. I've found this protocol imperative if you're going to train intensely five or six days a week.

You make valid points....for the astute who have followed this thread will note that I in fact use 2 protein shakes immediately post workout. So, I obviously believe sooner the better.

I just simply was playing devils advocate. For instance, back in the "old days" when I first started doing this stuff, we worked out at the only game in town. Black iron gym, no cardio equipment. Top powerlifters and competitive atheletes worked out there, as well as many of our pro football team members.

Our supplements in those days were crap like Hoffman Milk and egg, wieder milk and egg, club sandwiches, then Hot Stuff came out, and followed by Anabolic Activator, and on and on. Creatiine was not even on the market.
Anyhow, guess what we did after working out?? Got home as fast as we could, cooked up a 1/2 lb. of ground round, had a plate of pasta with it. In other words, we ate, and ate large amounts of food. Milk and egg protein was hardly a fast digesting protein. Did we gain? Sure did. Had some pretty dam big guys in that gym.

I simply do not buy the fact that you have to have a protein drink within 18.2 minutes, and drink it for 6.9 minutes, or all your gains will be null and void. Most all of those studies that began this pwo protocol began with endurance athletes replacing glycogen. As strength athletes, this is of no concern to us, unless contest training, last week. I know just how hard it is to deplete glycogen, it in fact is very difficult. We work extremely hard at it to load prior to contest day.

Again, no dispute here, I have used some of the same arguments as you did in your post in the past. I do myself believe the sooner you can get some nourishment in you of some sort, the more anabolic you will become. ONly makes sense. But, all your gains will not be null and void if you are outside this "hour window".

 

[javaguru]

Here is another good study on trained weightlifters;
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/84/3/890

 

[Lifterforlife]

Here is another good study on trained weightlifters;
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/84/3/890

I could post you to lots of these. My point is immediate glycogen replacement is not an issue with strength athletes. Think about it, do a set which lasts all of 20 seconds, rest 2-3 minutes, do another set. How is glycogen being depleted in this manner?

If glycogen was depleted this easily, we would all have issues.

We take our pwo shake with simple sugars for enhanced uptake of protein, via insulin. Not muscle glycogen.

Now, if contest training, this is totally different. I know a thing or two about depleting muscle gycogen. I have competed in 12 contests. The last week, this is something that we do, it takes at least 3 days of balls to the wall workouts, no rest, very low carb (basically only veggies), and still not sure if you timed it right for supercompensation. You want to look very flat, if you did this,then you probably succeeded.

 

[javaguru]

I could post you to lots of these. My point is immediate glycogen replacement is not an issue with strength athletes. Think about it, do a set which lasts all of 20 seconds, rest 2-3 minutes, do another set. How is glycogen being depleted in this manner?

If glycogen was depleted this easily, we would all have issues.

We take our pwo shake with simple sugars for enhanced uptake of protein, via insulin. Not muscle glycogen.

Now, if contest training, this is totally different. I know a thing or two about depleting muscle gycogen. I have competed in 12 contests. The last week, this is something that we do, it takes at least 3 days of balls to the wall workouts, no rest, very low carb (basically only veggies), and still not sure if you timed it right for supercompensation. You want to look very flat, if you did this,then you probably succeeded.

The study found a 36% decrease in muscle glycogen from three sets of three different exercises for nine total sets; This is a fairly substantial decrease. Likewise, anytime one is engaging in multiple training sessions in a day, morning cardio and evening weight training for example, it becomes important. Of course I'm speaking in the context of "normal" training and not during specific periods, like attempting super compensation before an event.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Fine...I will make one more post on the subject, and let you have the last word which I have no doubt of. I am not here to be confrontational, on the contrary, to try to enighten and educate as best I can.

Saying that, I hope folks will read through these posts, as there is alot of good info that got left out of replies, that may indeed be valuable information to the astute Elite Fitness member.

That being said, here is my final word......

The most common argument is that the subsequent cellular hydration and swelling will have an anticatabolic effect on muscle. I don’t believe that this is possible because cellular hydration to the extent that we get with creatine supplementation has little effect on muscle protein synthesis or breakdown in healthy men or women (Louis et al., 2003).

Then there’s the suggestion that if we don’t replenish post exercise glycogen right away, we’ll miss a window of opportunity to do so. This is largely hyperbole, exploded from bits and pieces of endurance training studies, and a perfect example of the telephone game effect.

Surprisingly, one study showed that consuming carbohydrates after strength training only increased muscle glycogen by 16% more than when water was consumed (Pascoe et al., 1993)! With this information and the huge amount of carbs that we consume on a daily basis, we should have little doubt that glycogen levels will be maximized within 24 hours of the workout.

Now these may be irrelevant points, because in the effort of keeping our focus where it ought to lie—on maximizing protein synthesis— we’re going to quickly stimulate our glycogen restoration anyway. This is because we consume rapidly absorbed carbohydrates along with our protein and amino acids, which has been shown to enhance muscle protein anabolism (Rasmussen et al., 2000).

In other words, muscle glycogen will be restored whether we make it a priority or not. This way, even those who can’t escape the dogma of having to rapidly restore glycogen get their fix, while at the same time, unknowingly assisting with muscle protein recovery.

****oh, by the way, interpreting the study correctly might just help. It would be improbable to deplete 36% total muscle glycogen from 9 total sets.

Read the study, it was approximately 36% of the muscle exercised, the leg, not whole muscle glycogen. Here is the text....

This amounted to an average decrease of ~36% in muscle glycogen in the vastus lateralis [comparing postexercise glycogen on all 3 conditions vs. postexercise glycogen in Pl-Con (nonexercised leg)].

And I would venture to guess that even that figure is high, according to other studies

And, if you notice, it says p/c/f, all 3 had basically the same effect.....

Significantly higher baseline plasma glucose concentrations were observed for both the CHO/Pro/fat and CHO trials (P < 0.05). In all three conditions, exercise resulted in slightly (nonsignificant) higher plasma glucose (Fig. 3A). Consumption of CHO/Pro/fat resulted in significantly greater glucose at 20, 40, 80, 100, 120, 140, and 160 min postexercise compared with the Pl condition (P < 0.01; Fig. 3A). The CHO trial resulted in a similar glucose response to the CHO/Pro/fat trial, with significant increases at 20, 40, 60, 100, 120, and 140 min postexercise vs. the Pl condition (P < 0.01; Fig. 3A). The area under the glucose curve was not significantly different between the CHO/Pro/fat and CHO conditions (CHO/Pro/fat = 5.87 ± 0.27 mM/h and CHO = 5.59 ± 0.35 mM/h), but these were greater compared with Pl (P < 0.01; Fig. 4A).



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[javaguru]

Fine...I will make one more post on the subject, and let you have the last word which I have no doubt of. I am not here to be confrontational, on the contrary, to try to enighten and educate as best I can.

Saying that, I hope folks will read through these posts, as there is alot of good info that got left out of replies, that may indeed be valuable information to the astute Elite Fitness member.

That being said, here is my final word......

The most common argument is that the subsequent cellular hydration and swelling will have an anticatabolic effect on muscle. I don’t believe that this is possible because cellular hydration to the extent that we get with creatine supplementation has little effect on muscle protein synthesis or breakdown in healthy men or women (Louis et al., 2003).

Then there’s the suggestion that if we don’t replenish post exercise glycogen right away, we’ll miss a window of opportunity to do so. This is largely hyperbole, exploded from bits and pieces of endurance training studies, and a perfect example of the telephone game effect.

Surprisingly, one study showed that consuming carbohydrates after strength training only increased muscle glycogen by 16% more than when water was consumed (Pascoe et al., 1993)! With this information and the huge amount of carbs that we consume on a daily basis, we should have little doubt that glycogen levels will be maximized within 24 hours of the workout.

Now these may be irrelevant points, because in the effort of keeping our focus where it ought to lie—on maximizing protein synthesis— we’re going to quickly stimulate our glycogen restoration anyway. This is because we consume rapidly absorbed carbohydrates along with our protein and amino acids, which has been shown to enhance muscle protein anabolism (Rasmussen et al., 2000).

In other words, muscle glycogen will be restored whether we make it a priority or not. This way, even those who can’t escape the dogma of having to rapidly restore glycogen get their fix, while at the same time, unknowingly assisting with muscle protein recovery.

****oh, by the way, interpreting the study correctly might just help. It would be improbable to deplete 36% total muscle glycogen from 9 total sets.

Read the study, it was approximately 36% of the muscle exercised, the leg, not whole muscle glycogen. Here is the text....

This amounted to an average decrease of ~36% in muscle glycogen in the vastus lateralis [comparing postexercise glycogen on all 3 conditions vs. postexercise glycogen in Pl-Con (nonexercised leg)].

And I would venture to guess that even that figure is high, according to other studies

And, if you notice, it says p/c/f, all 3 had basically the same effect.....

Significantly higher baseline plasma glucose concentrations were observed for both the CHO/Pro/fat and CHO trials (P < 0.05). In all three conditions, exercise resulted in slightly (nonsignificant) higher plasma glucose (Fig. 3A). Consumption of CHO/Pro/fat resulted in significantly greater glucose at 20, 40, 80, 100, 120, 140, and 160 min postexercise compared with the Pl condition (P < 0.01; Fig. 3A). The CHO trial resulted in a similar glucose response to the CHO/Pro/fat trial, with significant increases at 20, 40, 60, 100, 120, and 140 min postexercise vs. the Pl condition (P < 0.01; Fig. 3A). The area under the glucose curve was not significantly different between the CHO/Pro/fat and CHO conditions (CHO/Pro/fat = 5.87 ± 0.27 mM/h and CHO = 5.59 ± 0.35 mM/h), but these were greater compared with Pl (P < 0.01; Fig. 4A).



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At no point did I say it was total glycogen depletion; Please don't add your own interpretation to my post. I simply referenced the study which was clear on the subject(I posted the whole thing and you referenced it). Depleting 36% of the glycogen from nine sets is substantial and replenishment is particularly important if one engages in multiple training sessions; Which being an athlete as opposed to a bodybuilder should be of note. Depleting 36+% of muscle glycogen in your back and chest as well as legs, typical split plus cardio, would cause a substantial depletion. I advocate a much lower carb consumption for bodybuilders(1g/lb) as opposed to what is recommended by the ACSM, about twice my recommendation if I remember correctly. So I wouldn't assume a "huge amount of carbs" are being consumed, "huge" being a relative term.

 

[Lifterforlife]

At no point did I say it was total glycogen depletion; Please don't add your own interpretation to my post. I simply referenced the study which was clear on the subject(I posted the whole thing and you referenced it).

Here is your complete post on the subject line in question....

The study found a 36% decrease in muscle glycogen from three sets of three different exercises for nine total sets;

So, excuse me, but nowhere in this statement from your own post does it say anything about just the leg muscle. Interpretation from most anyone would lead to the same conclusion.

Depleting 36% of the glycogen from nine sets is substantial and replenishment is particularly important if one engages in multiple training sessions; Which being an athlete as opposed to a bodybuilder should be of note.

And here is further evidence directly continuing your post...and by the way, hhhhmmmmm, an athlete as opposed to a bodybuilder? So, I guess we are now suggesting a bb is not an athlete, or is this again putting words in your mouth?

Depleting 36+% of muscle glycogen in your back and chest as well as legs, typical split plus cardio, would cause a substantial depletion.

Yes, this would be true, but do most folks work those major muscle groups to that extent to deplete glycogen in one workout. A typical split I think not. And then add cardio...a bit of a stretch?

I advocate a much lower carb consumption for bodybuilders(1g/lb) as opposed to what is recommended by the ACSM, about twice my recommendation if I remember correctly. So I wouldn't assume a "huge amount of carbs" are being consumed, "huge" being a relative term.

As do I, it is a rare day when I get over 200 gr. of carbs for the whole day, usually a fair amount less. I do just fine replenishing glycogen. I made a post in another thread to guage your pwo drink to your energy expenditure. This still holds true. If indeed you would do all the work in one workout you advocate, then substantially more would of course be in order.

By the way, had you done one of those "events" you referenced to in my prior post, you may actually have an idea what it entails to deplete glycogen, and could actually speak from experience.

 

[markshark]

A whey shake will be digested by the time you eat lunch with your friend so dont wait, down that thing right away, and you'll be ready to smash down some food.

yeah from what i know in that 2 hours you should have consumed 2 decent sized meals. one should be your post-workout shake with lots of protein, carbs and calories and then about an hour after that another big meal with the same elements. i know i consume like 3 big meals within 4 hours of lifting.

 

[javaguru]

I quoted the study directly; Did I say whole body glycogen depletion? It may be asking a lot but I expect people to do a cursory examination. Why did you try to "assume" whole body glycogen utilization when everybody knows muscle gycogen is used by the specific muscle? Many people do more than nine sets and cardio, me for one. I typically do 12-20 sets per group plus twenty to thirty minutes of cardio. Many people do morning cardio and afternooon workouts;That's why I give "general" advice because I may be counseling a football player or a bodybuilder and glycogen replenishment is good for all involved. Yes, I will admit that I consider "bodybuilding" not much more than a muscle dysmorphia beauty pageant. I'm an athlete, lifting weights isn't an end in itself but makes you better at putting the ball in the hoop or getting into the end zone,