no wonder iraqis hate us

[minion]

Minion,
Ironically, David Mills gets taking away in the cop car at the end of the movie.

There are repercussions to the actions we take. We're not animals. We have the choice to exercise restraint or not. America is not the victim. Your conveniently looking at history through a fragmented paradigm which considers events only recent enough to pull no relationship between historical US foreign policy and the gestation and widespread adoption of militant Islamic sects.

This goes both ways. Nevermind that though. *moot*
I believe your being mislead. America is the only one in this exercising restraint. Iraq's only discipline is opportunity. Hence the sanctions and U.N. inspectors. The country of Iraq receives billions in humanitarian aid to care for its citizens. Despite these efforts Sadam allows his people only a fraction of that and pockets the rest yet continues to pursure weapons of mass destruction.

 

[BO-CEPHUS]

heh. Patriot to the day you die, huh?

Minion, u give lip service to the desire for peace. But your not willing to work for it.

Im trying to show you your Government is just as guilty as the sept 11th hijackers. Theyve killed. Theyve murdered. Theyve antagonized Muslim nations until they incited retaliation. Now the US is playing the forlorn victim.

I actually agree with you on this point. I knew that eventually one of these countries would retatliate against us. Our government is a piece of shit and something needs to be down now. This is were I believe our differences come into play. I think we are simply in way too deep for our own good. It would not matter one bit if the US withdrew from the middle east and even stopped supporting Israel. These people will still hate us and still look for opportunities to retalitate against the US. Peace will never take place on this earth. I can guarantee you that.

So we either risk more attacks and we start fighting everyone of these people. It looks like you are for the first option while I am for the second. I am pretty sure we will eventually have fight them all so we might as well start picking some of them off as early as possible.

 

[buddy28]

This goes both ways. Nevermind that though. *moot*

The United States is drunk with its own power. Yes theres a need for imposing unilateral global governce if the situation warrants. Sponge noted Hitler.

However, the US Government doesnt seem to understand the princibles of comprimise and respect. They just wanna come to table, gobble down all the fucking cake, and slam the door on the way out.

I believe your being mislead. America is the only one in this exercising restraint.

How? By not nucing the entire middle east? The US military response to sept 11th attacks is restrained mostly for reasons outside the Bush administration, not within. The Bush Administration, or should I say influential members of the Bush administration, understand unbridled US retaliation against Muslim countries is just going to lead to more anti american sentiment......increasing the likilhood of more domestic terrorist attacks. ect. ect.

The country of Iraq receives billions in humanitarian aid to care for its citizens. Despite these efforts Sadam allows his people only a fraction of that and pockets the rest yet continues to pursure weapons of mass destruction.

I already addressed this before in reply to nordstroms post. I can post it if you like. I agree. Saddams a terriable leader. But we consciously financed that terriable leader and armed him to the teeth, which although not intended for the United States orginal purpose, precluded any chance the Iraqi civilian populace could overthrow Saddam if they so choosed. Therefore, the US had the moral imperative to take Saddam out at the end of the Gulf War. Didnt happen.

 

[minion]

heh. Patriot to the day you die, huh?

I know the flaws of my country. The USA isn't perfect. I've been to many different countries, many of which I like. However I'm an American by birth right and by choice. Yes I'am a patriot with patriotic sensibility.

Minion, u give lip service to the desire for peace. But your not willing to work for it.

Not at the risk of fellow Americans and my allies.
"If its morally licit for an individual or individuals, employing a means that entail the eventuality of either injury and death for the assailant then it is even more licit for the civil authority acting on behalf of the common good of society to do the same. Thus we have the scenario of war. In which we are confronted with the necessity of injuring and killing people we do not know."

Im trying to show you your Government is just as guilty as the sept 11th hijackers. Theyve killed. Theyve murdered. Theyve antagonized Muslim nations until they incited retaliation. Now the US is playing the forlorn victim.

You know better than to present this refuse. I'm not going to respond to this because its childish and foolish conjecture.

You need to hate because your job requires it of you. Youve made a decision to serve your country, and now youve become of victim of its propoganda.

Who is the propagandist here? You?

You've never seen our countries leaders make speaches to the tune of, "The streets of Iraq will flow with blood. First we will kill you then we will hang you and then we shoot you, blah, blah, blah." Of course not that would be the psycho in head office Baghdad.

Furthermore there is no difference between the propaganda I bought into and the one you bought into. Your argument is based on brand loyalty and the fact I'm intrenched in my beliefs and not easily swayed. Yet I NEVER called you a "victim" of your brand. Shameful tactic on your part.

Your mind is almost closed. But theres still hope.

I consider myself very open minded. But I have to filter alot out. Some people may have other names for their filters, I call mine LOGIC.

 

[buddy28]

Our government is a piece of shit and something needs to be down now.

Eboney and Ivorey, go together like perfect harmony.

It would not matter one bit if the US withdrew from the middle east and even stopped supporting Israel. These people will still hate us and still look for opportunities to retalitate against the US. Peace will never take place on this earth. I can guarantee you that.

This is where i disagree. If people actually learned to start respecting each other, developing a sincere empathetic understanding for other cultures, peace could happen. Muslims are human. They bleed the same as us, feel the same as us, are motivated by the same needs as us.

We are more alike than we are different. We need to apoligize. To right past wrongs. To share. And to move forward. If we do that, there will be peace.

So we either risk more attacks and we start fighting everyone of these people. It looks like you are for the first option while I am for the second. I am pretty sure we will eventually have fight them all so we might as well start picking some of them off as early as possible.

Well, this is eventually going to lead us into world war 3. Probably within the next ten to twenty years.

 

[BO-CEPHUS]

This is where i disagree. If people actually learned to start respecting each other, developing a sincere empathetic understanding for other cultures, peace could happen. Muslims are human. They bleed the same as us, feel the same as us, are motivated by the same needs as us.

We are more alike than we are different. We need to apoligize. To right past wrongs. To share. And to move forward. If we do that, there will be peace.

In my opinion, it is too late for apologies. The damage has been done. Our government has apologized for slavery, yet our race relations in this country are not much better. There will also be conflict in the world no matter what. I was once like you in thinking that peace was possible, but that is simply not reality. I am to the point where my survival comes first no matter what.

Well, this is eventually going to lead us into world war 3. Probably within the next ten to twenty years.

Agreed.

 

[buddy28]

"If its morally licit for an individual or individuals, employing a means that entail the eventuality of either injury and death for the assailant then it is even more licit for the civil authority acting on behalf of the common good of society to do the same. Thus we have the scenario of war. In which we are confronted with the necessity of injuring and killing people we do not know."

I agree with the moral justification for war completely. However, your conflating the assailant with the original victim. The original assailant is the US Government. The original victim is Muslim nations whose affairs have been maliciously manipulated by the US Government which has resulted in significant CIVILIAN DEATH.

Who has the moral imperative to initiate war now?

The US Government started this fight, and the Muslims responded on sept 11th. Now your crying foul like propping up undemocratically elected regimes and dictators that kill thousands of their own citizens isn't moral justification for a war.

You've got your war. Except your on the wrong side of morality. Thats really not my fault.

You know better than to present this refuse. I'm not going to respond to this because its childish and foolish conjecture.

In case you didnt notice, you were handing out the same 'refuse' as you call it, a few posts back.

Tell this to the innocent. The fatherless and motherless.

Theres nothing childish or foolish about it. You have a point, and I have a point. You only wish to focus on your nations hurt, and your own loss, so u can elicit the cognitive fortitude it takes to repress the hypocrisy inherent in denying the justifiable acts which were executed against your nation on sept 11th.

Ever heard of the concept of cognitive dissonance? You should really look it up. Has so many applications.

You've never seen our countries leaders make speeches to the tune of, "The streets of Iraq will flow with blood. First we will kill you then we will hang you and then we shoot you, blah, blah, blah." Of course not that would be the psycho in head office Baghdad.

Yea, thats because instead of those speeches our leaders use reserved head nods behind closed doors so no one is none the wiser.

Does that make us more civilized?

Reminds me of Jesus' parable of the Pharisees. All clean and attractive on the outside. Filled with dirt and filth in the inside.

Furthermore there is no difference between the propaganda I bought into and the one you bought into. Your argument is based on brand loyalty and the fact I'm intrenched in my beliefs and not easily swayed. Yet I NEVER called you a "victim" of your brand. Shameful tactic on your part.

Brand loyalty. Good one.

Want to know why your a victim of your nations propaganda?

Because the propaganda you buy into recklessly devalues human life outside of your own in-group. While our Creator, the one that you pray to, decrees all human life equal. No matter what race, color, sect or creed.

You should meditate on that. Christ, our God, the God this nation was founded upon, esteems no man, no community, no nation over another. There are differences between us, but he implores us to work them out, civilly, and come to a compromise.

Compromise can be found. But your previous posts indicate your not looking for compromise. Your looking for vengeance. Even when its not justly accorded to you or your nation.

Have you thought out your position logically in accordance with Gods Law?

"I consider myself very open minded. But I have to filter alot out. Some people may have other names for their filters, I call mine LOGIC.

Survival of the fittest. That works great in a universe devoid of moral Creator. But thankfully, we don't live in a universe without a God.


Heres a passage I didn't comprehend for a long time. Now I do, and am thankful for it.

Proverbs Chapter 1 Verse 7. Old Testament.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,.."

 

[minion]

I agree with the moral justification for war completely. However, your conflating the assailant with the original victim. The original assailant is the US Government. The original victim is Muslim nations whose affairs have been maliciously manipulated by the US Government which has resulted in significant CIVILIAN DEATH.

Who has the moral imperative to initiate war now?

The US Government started this fight, and the Muslims responded on sept 11th. Now your crying foul like propping up undemocratically elected regimes and dictators that kill thousands of their own citizens isn't moral justification for a war.

You've got your war. Except your on the wrong side of morality. Thats really not my fault.

In case you didnt notice, you were handing out the same 'refuse' as you call it, a few posts back.

Theres nothing childish or foolish about it. You have a point, and I have a point. You only wish to focus on your nations hurt, and your own loss, so u can elicit the cognitive fortitude it takes to repress the hypocrisy inherent in denying the justifiable acts which were executed against your nation on sept 11th.

Ever heard of the concept of cognitive dissonance? You should really look it up. Has so many applications.

Yea, thats because instead of those speeches our leaders use reserved head nods behind closed doors so no one is none the wiser.

Does that make us more civilized?

Reminds me of Jesus' parable of the Pharisees. All clean and attractive on the outside. Filled with dirt and filth in the inside.




Brand loyalty. Good one.

Want to know why your a victim of your nations propaganda?

Because the propaganda you buy into recklessly devalues human life outside of your own in-group. While our Creator, the one that you pray to, decrees all human life equal. No matter what race, color, sect or creed.

You should meditate on that. Christ, our God, the God this nation was founded upon, esteems no man, no community, no nation over another. There are differences between us, but he implores us to work them out, civilly, and come to a compromise.

Compromise can be found. But your previous posts indicate your not looking for compromise. Your looking for vengeance. Even when its not justly accorded to you or your nation.

Have you thought out your position logically in accordance with Gods Law?

Survival of the fittest. That works great in a universe devoid of moral Creator. But thankfully, we don't live in a universe without a God.

Heres a passage I didn't comprehend for a long time. Now I do, and am thankful for it.

Proverbs Chapter 1 Verse 7. Old Testament.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,.."

Buddy, I applaude you for your vision and idealism.
Although be advised. Your fast approaching territory inhabited by traitors IMO if you think America deserved 9/11.

I'm conflating you say? Negative. If I'm a target the solution is crystal clear. No one manipulated them anymore than we were manipulated when they were playing both sides during the Cold War era. You obviosly have no idea the concerted magnitude and effort that goes into running this country.

I wish it was as simple as you seem to believe, but I don't think you believe what you say.

If you want to quote scripture as a catalyst, I'll play your game.


"eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." Deuteronomy, 19:21

"smite the Midianites as one man." Judges, 6:16

"And thou shalt smite the house of Ahab thy master, that I may avenge the blood of my servants the prophets, and the blood of all the servants of the LORD, at the hand of Jezebel....And the dogs shall eat Jezebel in the portion of Jezreel, and there shall be none to bury her." 2 Kings, 9: 7, 10

"To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up....A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace....every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God." Ecclesiastes, 3:1-3, 8, 13

"Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; they blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it." Ezekiel, 21:32

"The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth." Nahum, 1:3-4

I could go on. Or if I wanted I could get into interpetation of Biblical prophecy. Or quote alot of other books and authors. But I digress that's not really my style. I prefer to stand on my own.

 

[minion]

I agree with the moral justification for war completely. However, your conflating the assailant with the original victim. The original assailant is the US Government. The original victim is Muslim nations whose affairs have been maliciously manipulated by the US Government which has resulted in significant CIVILIAN DEATH.

Who has the moral imperative to initiate war now?

Wrong Iraq went into Kuwait, the U.N. stepped in to bail out Saudi and Kuwait. That's what put Iraq on the map. No one was too concerned when it was Iran and Iraq. Our intervention there was no different than the Soviets intervention.
The audacity to say America had "Malicious intentions". Malicious intent is when you use chem/bio vectors to annialate your own citizens. That alone was enough for the U.N. to storm the gates.
Who has the moral imperative, from where I sit WE do! 90% of the people of Iraq would agree. I'm not against the people of Iraq, I'm against the regime.

 

[minion]

The US Government started this fight, and the Muslims responded on sept 11th. Now your crying foul like propping up undemocratically elected regimes and dictators that kill thousands of their own citizens isn't moral justification for a war.

You've got your war. Except your on the wrong side of morality. Thats really not my fault.

Wrong again, it was in process long before Soviet/American intervention. Actaully I believe it was the U.K. that was there first.
Even if you were correct ,which you are not 9/11 still isn't justified.

The last part of the above quote has me perplexed. Since morality is very much a matter of perspective, I don't see how it carries any weight. And if it did, which it dosn't morally America is superior to Iraq on standard alone, but then again I'm American. What else would you expect me to say?