Need workout routine opinions

[oso0960]

A while ago I dug out some old, old strongman training from Doug Hepburn. I would like some opinions on it. Here's the routine:

"A" routine - 85-90% 1rm

workout A
Power Cleans 4-10 x 1
Bench 4-10 x 1
Squat 4-10 x 1

workout B
Row 4-10 x 1
OHP 4-10 x 1
Dead 4-10 x 1

"B" routine - 75-80% 1rm

workout A
Power Cleans 4-10 x 3
Bench 4-10 x 3
Squat 4-10 x 3

workout B
Row 4-10 x 3
OHP 4-10 x 3
Dead 4-10 x 3

How it works: For "A" routine, take 85-90% of your max and use 4 sets of 1. every other workout, add a set. When 10 sets of 1 is reached, up the weight and drop back down to 4 sets. When progress stalls, switch to the "B" routine and take the new 75-80% of max and repeat.

Doug supposedly reached a 500lb bench press using nothing but singles and triples in a fashion like this. Never have I seen any routine that has completely focuses on just singles though. He also claims that there is never a need to change from basic exercises like the ones above...that's all he used. Once in a long while, he would use what he called a "C" routine where it's basically the same thing but sets of 5 lol. I guess that is what he used for variety.

 

[the.gladiator1987]

I think to be able to do the same weight 10 times is more endurance but im no expert. Id say you dont need to have to get 10 sets of the same weight till you can move it up, but thats just me

 

[oso0960]

I'm with you on that about the 10 sets thing. If the person is more a beginner, they could progress every workout so that would limit them. Then if you're an advanced, it may take longer. It seems that it would probably take at least a month or so to actually start hitting PR's.

I believe Doug was a firm believer in Prilepin's table. For singles above 90%, the minimum is 4 sets and the maximum is 10. I think that's where he gets that from.

EDIT: think of this as more of a cookie cutter like the 5x5. I don't believe there's much harm in changing the 5x5 to a 5x3 with a heavier weight. or even a 5x10 with lighter weight depending on goals. I just want to know what opinions are on basing your entire workouts on heavy ass singles.

 

[the.gladiator1987]

I'm with you on that about the 10 sets thing. If the person is more a beginner, they could progress every workout so that would limit them. Then if you're an advanced, it may take longer. It seems that it would probably take at least a month or so to actually start hitting PR's.

I believe Doug was a firm believer in Prilepin's table. For singles above 90%, the minimum is 4 sets and the maximum is 10. I think that's where he gets that from.

EDIT: think of this as more of a cookie cutter like the 5x5. I don't believe there's much harm in changing the 5x5 to a 5x3 with a heavier weight. or even a 5x10 with lighter weight depending on goals. I just want to know what opinions are on basing your entire workouts on heavy ass singles.

well it will definetly make you stronger, but for size probably not so much since youre never recruiting more muscle fibers.

Its like the skinny 160lb guys being able to bench 335, because all they do is singles they dont want mass.

Probably will get you stronger as hell, but its definetly not a bodybuilding routine.

 

[oso0960]

Thanks man, that's what I was looking for. I've been thinking the same way but was wondering why I've never seen a routine based entirely on singles.

 

[the.gladiator1987]

Thanks man, that's what I was looking for. I've been thinking the same way but was wondering why I've never seen a routine based entirely on singles.

It would be excellent for strength though. But the 5x5 is good for that too, probably better than singles because you will add a lot of size as well. The 5x5 still has my squats jumping 50-60lbs in 12 weeks. Well see if i can get that

 

[oso0960]

are you fcking serious? You're already at nearly 300x5 and still making that kind of progres on the 5x5?

By the time I could manage 315x5 squat my progress was nonexistent and had to switch to the advanced. Although I've never used anything else besides the 5x5 lol..so I might have gotten stale.

How does your bench do on 5x5? By the time I was finished with my advanced 5x5 I managed 245x4 on a really good day. Seeing how you're doing 245x3 easily..damn.

 

[future]

Cleans, over head presses etc are not advisable. Really a basic scheme with questionable exercises. Hepburn is very very old school.

 

[oso0960]

Cleans, over head presses etc are not advisable. Really a basic scheme with questionable exercises. Hepburn is very very old school.

You're right, I forgot about OHP being concentric first. Mind me ask why you say cleans are not advisable though?

EDIT: I don't care about size. All I care about is getting strong. You're a knowledgeable guy, how would you make this better? Is it just a shit routine and there are better ways to get the greatest CNS adaption?

 

[future]

What is the point of cleans? They are dangerous at about every turn. To low back trauma, ac damage...I can go on and on. They look neat. But not worth many other exercises.

 

[oso0960]

I'm a firm believer of a legs/push/pull workout...by legs I mean not just squats but include deads even though I know it is a pull.

Sorry for the late edit, you might've missed it but in the previous post I said: I don't care about size. All I care about is getting strong. You're a knowledgeable guy, how would you make this better? Is it just a shit routine and there are better ways to get the greatest CNS adaption?

 

[future]

Week 1

Day 1 (max effort squat day)
Good Mornings: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max.
Glute Ham Raises: 3 sets of 10 reps. Stress the eccentric, try to get a four count on they way down.
Reverse Hypers: 3 sets of 8 reps using the small strap
Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 10 to 15 reps
Straight Leg Raises: 5 sets of 15 reps

Day 2 (max effort bench day)
Board Press: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max.
Lying Barbell tricep extensions: 6 sets of 10 reps
Push Downs: 3 sets of 10
One Arm Press: 3 sets of 15

Day 3 (dynamic effort squat day)
Box Squats: 10 sets of 2 reps with 50% of 1RM (45 to 60 sec rest between sets)
Reverse Hypers: 3 sets of 8 reps using the small strap
One Leg Squats: 4 sets of 10 with each leg
Dumbbell Rows: 4 sets of 6 reps
Barbell Shrugs: 3 sets of 15 reps

Day 4 (dynamic effort bench day)
Bench Press: 10 sets of 3 reps with 60% of 1RM; use three different grips; (45 to 60 sec rest between sets)
Lying Dumbbell Tricep Extensions: 4 sets of 8 reps
Dumbbell Side Raises: 3 sets of 10 reps
Bent Over Dumbbell Side Raises: 3 sets of 10 rep

Week 2

Day 1 (max effort squat day)
Good Mornings: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max
Glute Ham Raises: 3 sets of 8 reps. Stress the eccentric, try to get a four count on they way down.
Reverse Hypers : 3 sets of 8 reps using the small strap
Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 10 to 15 reps
Straight Leg Raises: 3 sets of 20 reps

Day 2 (max effort bench day)
Board Press: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max
Lying Barbell Tricep Extensions: 6 sets of 10 reps
Push Downs: 3 sets of 10
One Arm Press: 3 sets of 15

Day 3 (dynamic effort squat day)
Box Squats: 10 sets of 2 reps with 54 % of 1RM; (45 to 60 sec rest between sets)
Reverse Hypers: 3 sets of 8 reps using the small strap
One Leg Squats: 4 sets of 10 with each leg
Dumbbell Rows: 4 sets of 6 reps
Barbell Shrugs: 3 sets of 15 reps

Day 4 (dynamic effort bench day)
Bench Press: 10 sets of 3 reps with 60% of 1RM; use three different grips ; (45 to 60 sec rest between sets)
Lying Dumbbell Tricep Extensions: 4 sets of 8 reps
Dumbbell Side Raises: 3 sets of 10 reps
Bent Over Dumbbell Side Raises: 3 sets of 10 reps


Week 3

Day 1 (max effort squat day)
Good Mornings: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max
Glute Ham Raises: 3 sets of 8 reps using the small strap
Reverse Hypers : 3 sets of 8 reps using the small strap
Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 10 to 15 reps
Straight Leg Raises: 3 sets of 20 reps

Day 2 (max effort bench day)
Board Press: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max
Lying Barbell Tricep Extensions: 6 sets of 10 reps
Push Downs: 3 sets of 10
One Arm Press: 3 sets of 15

Day 3 (dynamic effort squat day)
Box Squats: 10 sets of 2 reps with 56 % of 1RM ; (45 to 60 sec rest between sets)
Reverse Hypers: 3 sets of 8 reps using the small strap
One Leg Squats: 4 sets of 10 with each leg
Dumbbell Rows: 4 sets of 6 reps
Barbell Shrugs: 3 sets of 15 reps

Day 4 (dynamic effort bench day)
Bench Press: 10 sets of 3 reps with 60% of 1RM; use three different grips ; (45 to 60 sec rest between sets)
Lying Dumbbell Tricep Extensions: 4 sets of 8 reps
Dumbbell Side Raises: 3 sets of 10 reps
Bent Over Dumbbell Side Raises: 3 sets of 10 reps


Week 4

Day 1 (max effort squat day)
Low Box Squat: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max
Glute Ham Raise: 5 sets of 5 reps
Partial Deadlifts: 3 sets of 20 reps
Reverse Hypers: 3 sets of 8 reps using the small strap
Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 10 to 15 reps

Day 2 (max effort bench day)
Floor Press: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max
JM Press: work up to 2 sets of 3 reps
Incline Dumbbell Press: 2 sets of 10
Seated dumbbell Cleans: 4 sets of 8
Straight Leg Raises: 5 sets of 15

Day3 (dynamic effort squat day)
Box Squats: 10 sets of 2 reps with 60 % of 1RM ; (45 to 60 sec rest between sets)
* after your sets of box squats work up to a heavy double. This is not a maximum attempt so do not miss the attempts.
Reverse Hypers: 5 sets of 8 reps
Chest supported Rows: 4 sets of 8 reps
Glute Ham Raise: 3 sets of 6 reps
Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 10 reps

Day 4 (dynamic effort bench day)
Bench Press: 10 sets of 3 reps with 60% of 1RM; use three different grips ; (45 to 60 sec rest between sets)
Close Grip Bench Press: work up to 2 sets of 3
One Arm Dumbbell Extensions: 3 sets of 10
Front Plate Raises: 3 sets of 10 reps


Week 5

Day 1 (max effort squat day)
Low Box Squat: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max
Glute Ham Raise: 5 sets of 5 reps
Partial Deadlifts: 3 sets of 20 reps
Reverse Hypers: 3 sets of 8 reps using the small strap
Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 10 to 15 reps

Day 2 (max effort bench day)
Floor Press: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max
JM Press: work up to 2 sets of 3 reps
Incline Dumbbell Press: 2 sets of 10
Seated Dumbbell Cleans: 4 sets of 8
Straight Leg Raises: 5 sets of 15

Day 3 (dynamic effort squat day)
Box Squats: 10 sets of 2 reps with 50% of 1RM ; (45 to 60 sec rest between sets)
Reverse Hypers: 5 sets of 8 reps
Chest supported Rows: 4 sets of 8 reps
Glute Ham Raise: 3 sets of 6 reps
Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 10 reps

Day 4 (dynamic effort bench day)
Bench Press: 10 sets of 3 reps with 60% of 1RM; use three different grips ; (45 to 60 sec rest between sets)
* after your sets of box squats work up to a heavy single. This is not a maximum attempt so do not miss the attempts.
Close Grip Bench Press: work up to 2 sets of 3
One Arm Dumbbell Extensions: 3 sets of 10
Front Plate Raises: 3 sets of 10 reps



Week 6


Day 1 (max effort squat day)
Low Box Squat: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max
Glute Ham Raise: 5 sets of 5 reps
Partial Deadlifts: 3 sets of 20 reps
Reverse Hypers: 3 sets of 8 reps using the small strap
Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 10 to 15 reps

Day 2 (max effort bench day)
Floor Press: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max
JM Press: work up to 2 sets of 3 reps
Incline Dumbbell Press: 2 sets of 10
Seated dumbbell Cleans: 4 sets of 8
Straight Leg Raises: 5 sets of 15

Day 3 (dynamic effort squat day)
Box Squats: 10 sets of 2 reps with 52 % of 1RM ; (45 to 60 sec rest between sets)
Reverse Hypers: 5 sets of 8 reps
Chest supported Rows: 4 sets of 8 reps
Glute Ham Raise: 3 sets of 6 reps
Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 10 reps

Day 4 (dynamic effort bench day)
Bench Press: 10 sets of 3 reps with 60% of 1RM; use three different grips ; (45 to 60 sec rest between sets)
Close Grip Bench Press: work up to 2 sets of 3
One Arm Dumbbell Extensions: 3 sets of 10
Front Plate Raises: 3 sets of 10 reps


Week 7

Day 1 (max effort squat day)
Good Morning Squats: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max
Glute Ham Raise: 5 sets of 5 reps
Lunges: 4 sets of 10 reps (each leg)
Reverse Hypers: 3 sets of 8 reps using the small strap
Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 10 to 15 reps

Day 2 (max effort bench day)
Ball Press: 3 sets of 20 reps (avg. rest period = 5 min)
Seated dumbbell Shoulder Press: 5 sets 10 reps
Incline Barbell Tricep Extensions: 5 sets 6 reps
face Pulls: 5 sets 15 reps

Day 3 (dynamic effort squat day)
Box Squats: 10 sets of 2 reps with 54 % of 1RM ; (45 to 60 sec rest between sets)
* after your sets of box squats work up to a heavy double. This is not a maximum attempt so do not miss the attempts.
Reverse Hypers: 4 sets 8 reps
Pull Downs: 3 sets 8 reps
Glute Ham Raise: 4 sets 15 reps

Day 4 (dynamic effort bench day)
Bench Press: 10 sets of 3 reps with 60% of 1RM; use three different grips ; (45 to 60 sec rest between sets)
* after your sets of box squats work up to a heavy single. This is not a maximum attempt so do not miss the attempts.
Dumbbell Tricep Extensions: 4 sets of 6 reps
Reverse Grip Push Downs: 3 sets of 15 reps
Front - Side - Rear Delt Combo Raise: 2 sets of 60 reps (20 each raise)
Pull Down Abs: 5 sets 10 reps






Week 8


Day 1 (max effort squat day)
Good Morning Squats: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max
Glute Ham Raise: 5 sets of 5 reps
Lunges: 4 sets of 10 reps (each leg)
Reverse Hypers: 3 sets of 8 reps using the small strap
Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 10 to 15 reps


Day 2 (max effort bench day)
Ball Press: 3 sets of 20 reps (avg. rest period = 5 min)
Seated dumbbell Shoulder Press: 5 sets 10 reps
Incline Barbell Tricep Extensions: 5 sets 6 reps
face Pulls: 5 sets 15 reps

Day 3 (dynamic effort squat day)
Box Squats: 10 sets of 2 reps with 62 % of 1RM ; (45 to 60 sec rest between sets)
Reverse Hypers: 4 sets 8 reps
Pull Downs: 3 sets 8 reps
Glute Ham Raise: 4 sets 15 reps


Day 4 (dynamic effort bench day)
Bench Press: 10 sets of 3 reps with 60% of 1RM; use three different grips ; (45 to 60 sec rest between sets)
Dumbbell Tricep Extensions: 4 sets of 6 reps
Reverse Grip Push Downs: 3 sets of 15 reps
Front - Side - Rear Delt Combo Raise: 2 sets of 60 reps (20 each raise)
Pull Down Abs: 5 sets 10 reps



Week 9

Day 1 (max day) near end of week
Box Squat: work up to a 1 rep max
Bench Press: work up to a 1 rep max

* These maxes will be used as the 1RM for the next eight week cycle

 

[AEKDB]

The workout looks good to me. Replace bench with dips, add jerks, snatch, and OH squat and it is very close to my workout. I do mix in some volume work and always push to increase my max. Smaller weight increases help a lot in this type of workout: fractional plates.

If you are going to stick to the above I would replace power cleans with power snatch.

 

[oso0960]

@AEKDB - I used to have a set of tiny chain links I made when I used to do the 5x5.

When I looked at some vids of a power snatch most people started from the hang position. Which would be more beneficial, the ground or hang?

@future - I've seen that somewhere lol. either in the powerlifting section here or over on elitefts. I've tried westside-like splits but actually got weaker. It was a while ago but I don't think 3 singles above 90% with a beginner/intermediate at the time is the same as 3 singles above 90% with an elite powerlifter. I shouldn't have tried following the plans to a T.
Anyway, I like the conjugate system, but I want to see what else works and understand why or why it doesn't work. There's no way every powerlifter out there uses westside lol. Thanks for the post.

 

[fortunatesun]

You're right that trying what's out there is the only way to find out for sure what works for you.

The reason overhead overhead presses aren't usually advised is because they're too taxing on the rest of your system if your main objective is to raise numbers on your basic lifts.

Same thing with cleans. Unless you have a sport specific reason, there's other exercises that will get you where you want to go quicker.

One rep sets aren't usually outlined also due to stress of the CNS. However, this especially applies to competition lifters for whom these programs are for the most part designed. Their basic plan is to pace themselves and then peak for competition. If you're not training for an event day you can go with a single if you like. It's whatever works for you.

You may not care for the Westside type plan, but it does point out is that there's no other complementary work to your heavy lifts. I think if you go this way you need to add in some hypertrophy work - hams, tris, lower back, etc. You've got to get the rest of your body activated - it's a group effort. How much you do depends on your level of conditioning but the basic premise of Future's plan is valid: determine what's holding you back from increasing your numbers and work on those parts to make them strong.

 

[AEKDB]

@AEKDB - I used to have a set of tiny chain links I made when I used to do the 5x5.

When I looked at some vids of a power snatch most people started from the hang position. Which would be more beneficial, the ground or hang?

Either way. Personally I prefer to always lift the heavier weight and therefore rarely do hang snatches. My quest for more weight resulted in a natural progression from hang power snatches to power snatches to full snatches. I also found overhead squats greatly increased my snatch max.

 

[oso0960]

fortunatesun - Ok, I understand what you're saying thanks for the input.

AEKDB - Thanks. I'll keep that in mind for future uses. It'll probably take a bit of time to learn the snatch though since I've never done them before.

 

[SouthernLord]

I think you should check out the 5/3/1. Very basic three day a week strength training based off of percentages. I love the simplicity and flexibility of the routine. I am going to run this for the rest of the year. If you have any questions about setting this up feel free to PM me.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/weight-training-weight-lifting/5-3-1-program-647742.html

Jim Wendler's Log....This is his program

EliteFTS - Superior Products and Knowledge for Lifters, Athletes, Coaches, and Trainers Wendler

 

[oso0960]

The 5/3/1 looks like a pretty solid workout. How long have you done it and what are your gains?

 

[SouthernLord]

The 5/3/1 looks like a pretty solid workout. How long have you done it and what are your gains?

I did three 4 week waves the first of the year. I injured myself and took some time. I am currently nearing the end of my first four week wave back on this routine and I am a lot stronger than this spring. I know that's a poor comparison of gains. If you check Jim Wendler's log he lists some results of people who have been running the program for a while.

Set your program up to give yourself some wiggle room with your maxes. If you know your true 1RMs base the programs off of 90% of those numbers. You do not need to train at true max percentages to get stronger. You are going to progress in monthly increments. If you hit all your prescribed numbers for each workout, after your deload bump up your squats/deads by ten pounds and your presses by five pounds. On the last set of the percentage work rep out. For example 3x5 deadlifts, on your third set of five don't leave anything in the hole. If you can pull a set of eight, then pull a set of eight. Just don't go to failure. This will cause you to get stronger in all three rep ranges used (5s/3s/1s).

If a lift gets stale you can switch them out. Squat>Front Squat, Dead>Rack Pull, Bench>Incline bench, Press>Push Press. Nothing is set in stone when it comes to exercise selection.

 

[oso0960]

Man, I wish I heard of that routine sooner. My gym progress has come specifically from 5x5's which just get really stale after a while. Everytime I ventured to another type of routine I would lose strength. I'll keep this workout in mind once I stop dieting.

 

[future]

@AEKDB - I used to have a set of tiny chain links I made when I used to do the 5x5.

When I looked at some vids of a power snatch most people started from the hang position. Which would be more beneficial, the ground or hang?

@future - I've seen that somewhere lol. either in the powerlifting section here or over on elitefts. I've tried westside-like splits but actually got weaker. It was a while ago but I don't think 3 singles above 90% with a beginner/intermediate at the time is the same as 3 singles above 90% with an elite powerlifter. I shouldn't have tried following the plans to a T.
Anyway, I like the conjugate system, but I want to see what else works and understand why or why it doesn't work. There's no way every powerlifter out there uses westside lol. Thanks for the post.

If you got weaker you were doing something wrong. And there is plenty of volume to still stimulate some growth. Really I think you should just do a hit routine if you are inexperienced.