Need an explanation on the intermediate 5x5

[SDHW]

Hey bros

I have a question on Friday, I cut and paste it here, so people will know what im talking about, Im not sure I understand the sets and reps, Do I pick one, either 4x5, or 1x3 or 1x8? OR do I do all of them, in this case wouldn’t it be hard to increase by 2.5% after doing 4 sets of 5 reps with probably 3 warm up sent. If I was to do them all that would be 6 working sets, seems like a lot.



Friday
Squat 4x5, 1x3, 1x8 First 4 sets are the same as Monday's, the triple is 2.5% above your Monday top set of 5, use the weight from the 3rd set for a final set of 8
Bench 4x5, 1x3, 1x8 First 4 sets are the same as Monday's, the triple is 2.5% above your Monday top set of 5, use the weight from the 3rd set for a final set of 8
Barbell Row 4x5, 1x3, 1x8 First 4 sets are the same as Monday's, the triple is 2.5% above your Monday top set of 5, use the weight from the 3rd set for a final set of 8
Assistance: 3 sets of weighted dips (5-8 reps), 3 sets of barbell curls and 3 sets of triceps extensions (8 reps)

 

[Cynical Simian]

You do all of them, just like it says in the program description. It's not really six working sets, at least in the sense of sets that are near-maximal and driving your progress. Only the triple fits that description; the rest is just warming you up and giving you a bit more volume.

 

[ZGzaZ]

Hey bros

I have a question on Friday, I cut and paste it here, so people will know what im talking about, Im not sure I understand the sets and reps, Do I pick one, either 4x5, or 1x3 or 1x8? OR do I do all of them, in this case wouldn’t it be hard to increase by 2.5% after doing 4 sets of 5 reps with probably 3 warm up sent. If I was to do them all that would be 6 working sets, seems like a lot.



Friday
Squat 4x5, 1x3, 1x8 First 4 sets are the same as Monday's, the triple is 2.5% above your Monday top set of 5, use the weight from the 3rd set for a final set of 8
Bench 4x5, 1x3, 1x8 First 4 sets are the same as Monday's, the triple is 2.5% above your Monday top set of 5, use the weight from the 3rd set for a final set of 8
Barbell Row 4x5, 1x3, 1x8 First 4 sets are the same as Monday's, the triple is 2.5% above your Monday top set of 5, use the weight from the 3rd set for a final set of 8
Assistance: 3 sets of weighted dips (5-8 reps), 3 sets of barbell curls and 3 sets of triceps extensions (8 reps)

I'm not sure I understand what the confusion is....On monday you ramp your weight up to your top set of 5.... Friday for each exercise, you're going to do the first 4 warmup sets you did on monday for the same weights. So you do exactly the same weights you did on monday, minus the top set.
Then the 1x3 set is 2.5% ABOVE of what you did your top set on monday for. Then the 1x8 set is the weight you did on your 3rd set of your warmups for that day and mondays (they are the same).

 

[SDHW]

I'm not sure I understand what the confusion is....On monday you ramp your weight up to your top set of 5.... Friday for each exercise, you're going to do the first 4 warmup sets you did on monday for the same weights. So you do exactly the same weights you did on monday, minus the top set.
Then the 1x3 set is 2.5% ABOVE of what you did your top set on monday for. Then the 1x8 set is the weight you did on your 3rd set of your warmups for that day and mondays (they are the same).

Thanks, That clears it up, im not sure why i was getting confused. with the advanced program its either 5x5 or 1x5, so I wasn’t sure if the 1x3 was actually 5 sets of 3 reps with 2.5% higher.

 

[ZGzaZ]

oh, i gotcha....hope our responses helped! gl to you, youre gonna love the program....btw, what are you goals from it?

 

[SDHW]

oh, i gotcha....hope our responses helped! gl to you, youre gonna love the program....btw, what are you goals from it?

well I have already been using it. for whatever reason I got the intermediate and advanced program confused. I am using the advanced layout version but trying to progress by 2.5% each week. I was talking with madcow about deloading and if it was really necessary. He agreed that in isn’t necessary as long as your can progress your weights. Its a much faster road to progress each week, than to have to deload. So the big question was, what one to use? you should be able to use both for progressing weights up each week, its just a matter of volume. I am what I think making good progress on some of my lifts. But my bench is starting to drop, my push press is hard for me to progress, and my deadlift is tough for me to progress. So im not sure if this is due to the extra volume and if I should jump onto the beginner one?

Another problem im having, is that my 1x5 weights are a lot more than my 5x5 weights, for example last week, I did a ramping set of 1x5 for squat and hit 500lb for 5 on my last set. This weeks 5x5 squat I hit 425lb for all 5 sets, and it was tough at the end. This is like this on all my lifts. Why is this? Maybe im doing it wrong, on my 1x5 lifts I always try to push the limit to how much I can lift. For example next week when squatting, I will ramp up to 500lb again, and if I feel I can do more I will add more weight, if not I will stay until I can. Im not sure if I should be doing this or not.

 

[Protobuilder]

So the big question was, what one to use?

This may help.

 

[SDHW]

This may help.

Thanks for the post. it was a good read. but my question is till how do you know if your doing too much volume. Im guessing if your not progressing, then something needs to change, right? so if thats the case, and as of now im using the advaced training method without deloading. and some of my lifts are looking like they may be stalling, if you were in my shoes, how or what would you do to fix this?

 

[Protobuilder]

How do you know whether you're doing too much volume? It's a tough question to answer and honestly it's going to come down to a lot of trial and error and paying attention to your body and how you respond to diff't training variables. That's why it's so important that you make small, measured changes rather than just jumping from one program to the next with no rhyme or reason (not that that's you . . . just sayin').

I might look at what you were doing before and how well you were progressing. Did it improve when you added more volume, or did you stall out and go stale, burn out? Try knocking off one set from each exercise and see how you feel over the next few weeks. As you push heavier and heavier weights, you may want to back off the volume a bit. It's a pretty reliable periodization model: shit loads of volume w/ light weights and as the weight gets heavier, reduce volume until eventually you're peaking and hitting a big single or something. By backing off your volume a tad, you can squeek out a few more weight increases. And you can see how you react to it.

If some lifts "look like" they're about to stall, I'd consider backing off the volume on those lifts a tad, or maybe switching those lifts over to a 3x3 structure for a few weeks and seeing how it goes. Or, I'd push it another week or two and then drop the weight back a few weeks and reramp, trying to get through the plateau. Or you could push it for a few more weeks and then swap the exercise out and put another one in (e.g., go from military press to push press, or from bent row to chins).

This is basic programming. All of these "trial and error" things should be tried at some point. If you make changes, make small ones and try to make as few changes as possible at any one time so you can accurately measure your response. Only then will you know what really "works for you."

On the flip side, everything works but nothing works forever. Some people swear by the ol' "just do something diff't" method and it's not all that complicated. I'm not a fan of the haphazard route but maybe it works.

 

[SDHW]

How do you know whether you're doing too much volume? It's a tough question to answer and honestly it's going to come down to a lot of trial and error and paying attention to your body and how you respond to diff't training variables. That's why it's so important that you make small, measured changes rather than just jumping from one program to the next with no rhyme or reason (not that that's you . . . just sayin').

I might look at what you were doing before and how well you were progressing. Did it improve when you added more volume, or did you stall out and go stale, burn out? Try knocking off one set from each exercise and see how you feel over the next few weeks. As you push heavier and heavier weights, you may want to back off the volume a bit. It's a pretty reliable periodization model: shit loads of volume w/ light weights and as the weight gets heavier, reduce volume until eventually you're peaking and hitting a big single or something. By backing off your volume a tad, you can squeek out a few more weight increases. And you can see how you react to it.

If some lifts "look like" they're about to stall, I'd consider backing off the volume on those lifts a tad, or maybe switching those lifts over to a 3x3 structure for a few weeks and seeing how it goes. Or, I'd push it another week or two and then drop the weight back a few weeks and reramp, trying to get through the plateau. Or you could push it for a few more weeks and then swap the exercise out and put another one in (e.g., go from military press to push press, or from bent row to chins).

This is basic programming. All of these "trial and error" things should be tried at some point. If you make changes, make small ones and try to make as few changes as possible at any one time so you can accurately measure your response. Only then will you know what really "works for you."

On the flip side, everything works but nothing works forever. Some people swear by the ol' "just do something diff't" method and it's not all that complicated. I'm not a fan of the haphazard route but maybe it works.

Thanks for the ideas. I was thinking of everything you pointed out, it was a bit overwhelming, as to pick something to help, on the other hand, I just didnt want to F**K with the program and wanted to give it an honest run for it money. I want to make sure that I grow because of the program and no despite it. I think I will cut the volume a bit, and see how that goes, because honestly I haven’t seen much progression from my bench, push press and deadlift.

 

[Protobuilder]

You haven't seen much progression on those lifts at all? How long have you been on the program? IMO, you should be on the intermediate program.

 

[SDHW]

You haven't seen much progression on those lifts at all? How long have you been on the program? IMO, you should be on the intermediate program.

I forget when exactly I started but I know its been over 8wks now. Dont get me wrong I have seen some progression. let me give you an example. Several weeks ago, i was hitting 365lb on the bench for a 1x5, and 335lb for 5x5, without too much trouble. the other day I had a hard time hitting 335 for 1x5 and this Monday I couldn’t finish my 5x5 with the 335 on the bench, I think I got 3 reps on my last set, and 4 on my fourth. it has been feeling like its getting heaver and heaver each week. my weight has been gradually decreasing. I even took a deload week 3 weeks ago, and after coming back from that it still didn’t help. There is some progression going on, as before I would only be able to bench 315 for 1x5, now im up around 335 for 5x5 which is much better. However im worried that the weight is dropping. My squat on the other hand is doing great, the row is slowly progressing. The deadlift is in the same boat as the bench, and so is the push press to some degree.

so maybe your right, I should hop on the intermediate program and try to increase the weight and progress the hell out of it. I think im also going to hit the bi’s and Tri’s a little harder on Friday, I have been doing 3 light sets at the end.

 

[SDHW]

My deadlift is still not getting better, nor is my bench. The weight seems to be dropping. for example, it my ramping up for a set top set of 5, I could only get 3 reps, when last week I could do 5, this happened with both the dead, bench, squat.

I dropped down to the Intermediate program, so that cut out a bit of volume, Should I got a few weeks of 3x3???

 

[ZGzaZ]

Diet problem??? If youre getting 5 reps one week, and 3 reps the next week, there's something fishy going on.

 

[Cynical Simian]

Congratulations, you've accumulated fatigue. Triples would be fine for a deload, but there are plenty of other ways to do less work, so don't be afraid to experiment.

 

[Madcow2]

My deadlift is still not getting better, nor is my bench. The weight seems to be dropping. for example, it my ramping up for a set top set of 5, I could only get 3 reps, when last week I could do 5, this happened with both the dead, bench, squat.

I dropped down to the Intermediate program, so that cut out a bit of volume, Should I got a few weeks of 3x3???

You probably were still decently fatigued before beginning the intermediate. You should have started it from the beginning with the requisite 4 week buildup to current PRs.

Also, 1 week of deloading may or may not suffice. It depends on the amount of fatigue. It sounds like it didn't.

I'd do the 2x per week deload option on the advanced program run it for at least 3 weeks and see where you stand or longer, it never hurts to see the triples sky rocketing. After that you should be good for starting a more linear intermediate program and building up to PRs again (just recalc them based on the triples you hit).

BTW - you need to do this now before you really dig yourself into a hole. From personal experience there is a real point where overtraining sets in and it's not just another week on a normal deload to rebound, you can spend a good 2 months getting back on track again.

 

[SDHW]

Thanks for the info, I sure dont want to gett knee deep in overtraining crap, I did take wensday off, and I was going to hit the gym friday with some 3x3's and do it again next week. Then as you said I will start with a more linear intermediate program.

so with the 3x3, should it be my goal to hit the biggest numbers I can, and push it??

 

[SDHW]

Congratulations, you've accumulated fatigue. Triples would be fine for a deload, but there are plenty of other ways to do less work, so don't be afraid to experiment.

can you share some examples? Thanks

 

[Protobuilder]

can you share some examples?

Just do less work. Rest more. It's really that simple. If you go into a 3x3/1x3 phase, and you were doing 5x5/1x5, you've cut your workload (tonnage) considerably. So any plan that cuts the tonnage for a period should put you on the recovery track.

You can do it by slicing your volume. Skip a few training sessions. Or skip all of them for a week. Keep the weights heavy and do fewer reps. Keep the weight heavy and just work up to a couple of singles. Then go home. Those are all ways to attack the overreaching bug.

 

[Madcow2]

Thanks for the info, I sure dont want to gett knee deep in overtraining crap, I did take wensday off, and I was going to hit the gym friday with some 3x3's and do it again next week. Then as you said I will start with a more linear intermediate program.

so with the 3x3, should it be my goal to hit the biggest numbers I can, and push it??

The issue is that you have not been conservative with deloads. From the symptoms it sounds like you have some real fatigue built up. A deload is not a bad thing and you get to work on strength which will only make your next run more successful. Do not skimp on this - you already did this and you are enjoying the result.

Do the Option 2/Pure Deload on this page for no less than 3 weeks: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm. Start with weights no greater than what you are currently able to do for the 5's (meaning current condition you are in not your personal bests). Maybe even start lighter and get a breather week. Then just raise the weights incrementally each week. Do not jump to very heavy weight fast. If you enjoy this and it seems to be working well, maybe run it a bit longer and peak out in some PRs if you feel like it beyond the 3 mandatory weeks.

Again - do not skimp, you are in a hole. You have to deal with it and the small patch approach isn't cutting it.

I'll also say that rarely is a full week off from training an optimal or good way to go about things. By not doing the lifts at all you can detrain quickly on them and if you have been doing a 5x5 type program you've probably become decently trained on the lifts. There are better ways to go about this rather than simply punting on 3rd and long.

 

[SDHW]

The issue is that you have not been conservative with deloads. From the symptoms it sounds like you have some real fatigue built up. A deload is not a bad thing and you get to work on strength which will only make your next run more successful. Do not skimp on this - you already did this and you are enjoying the result.

Do the Option 2/Pure Deload on this page for no less than 3 weeks: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm. Start with weights no greater than what you are currently able to do for the 5's (meaning current condition you are in not your personal bests). Maybe even start lighter and get a breather week. Then just raise the weights incrementally each week. Do not jump to very heavy weight fast. If you enjoy this and it seems to be working well, maybe run it a bit longer and peak out in some PRs if you feel like it beyond the 3 mandatory weeks.

Again - do not skimp, you are in a hole. You have to deal with it and the small patch approach isn't cutting it.

I'll also say that rarely is a full week off from training an optimal or good way to go about things. By not doing the lifts at all you can detrain quickly on them and if you have been doing a 5x5 type program you've probably become decently trained on the lifts. There are better ways to go about this rather than simply punting on 3rd and long.

Thank you, I will jump on the pure deload for 3 weeks. I have been and will continue to keep track of my numbers and keep you guys posted.

 

[SDHW]

Another question, When resetting weight in the program, I know we put the PR in week 4, but what is the percentage decrease to week 1. I do have the excel layout that does it for me, I would just like to know for myself, how much you should start out with?

 

[Madcow2]

Another question, When resetting weight in the program, I know we put the PR in week 4, but what is the percentage decrease to week 1. I do have the excel layout that does it for me, I would just like to know for myself, how much you should start out with?

Given some of the questions and issues, I think you need to actually read the webpage (which is also linked in the Excel template with specific instructions to do so). The template is meant for you to check over your understanding of the program, complete calculation instructions are on the website. This is one of the reasons I was always very hesitant to provide an excel template as if someone wanted to use the program it forced them to read to be able to do the calcs. People need to learn and understand programming and that's doesn't happen by having someone handing them a perscription. I'd venture some dedicated reading of the pages concerning the intermediate and advanced programs as well as the comparison and training primer pages (say 30 minutes all in) would have completely negated all of the issues you've had and you'd be cruising along doing great.

That said this is specifically covered this in the 2nd paregraph under the giant chart: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm

Of course you start with a good margin to give yourself a run so you have to back into the initial weeks' weights. That means using some math. Put your current 5 rep maxes at week 4, figure out what 2.5% of the number is and go back and put that for week 3, do that back until you get to week 1. The Friday triple is always the next week's Monday set of 5. Pretty easy.

So just work back 2.5% per week from the week 4 number until you get to week 1. Alternatively just look at the formula in the cell on the spreadsheet.

This was my most recent addition to the page:

CAUTION - READ THIS: if you are going to devote hours and hours over weeks and weeks to a program, please take 10-15 minutes to actually read this page and understand it. That's a retarded method of saving time. Also, you will find it hugely useful to read the Training Primer I put together. You will understand so much more about training in general if you read it. Honestly, save yourself years of learning and spend 10-15 minutes reading that page. Hell just print it out and leave it in the bathroom. Within a couple days, you'll have it finished and you will be so much further ahead than so many others. Also, please make sure to read the Possible Issues section below - don't be a nimrod.

Those detailed descriptions are there for a reason, because people need to read them. Trying to save time by skipping it and then pissing away weeks and months of your training is a pretty poor move.

 

[holtzapple123]

i read over it half the day and finally it was like a light bulb went off and i got it, very good program imo

 

[SDHW]

Thanks again bro.

Given some of the questions and issues, I think you need to actually read the webpage (which is also linked in the Excel template with specific instructions to do so). The template is meant for you to check over your understanding of the program, complete calculation instructions are on the website. This is one of the reasons I was always very hesitant to provide an excel template as if someone wanted to use the program it forced them to read to be able to do the calcs. People need to learn and understand programming and that's doesn't happen by having someone handing them a perscription. I'd venture some dedicated reading of the pages concerning the intermediate and advanced programs as well as the comparison and training primer pages (say 30 minutes all in) would have completely negated all of the issues you've had and you'd be cruising along doing great.

That said this is specifically covered this in the 2nd paregraph under the giant chart: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm



So just work back 2.5% per week from the week 4 number until you get to week 1. Alternatively just look at the formula in the cell on the spreadsheet.

This was my most recent addition to the page:



Those detailed descriptions are there for a reason, because people need to read them. Trying to save time by skipping it and then pissing away weeks and months of your training is a pretty poor move.