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Has anyone got any information on this diet? Just the basics, what it consists of, etc. would be appreciated. I've heard of people having success on it and want to know more, but the searches I've done came up with nothing.
Natural Hormonal Enhancement Diet?
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MrMakaveli
New member
I'm not at home but seach on google for uhhh dragon door faq (or just do "warrior diet" and the faq page will come up") and it will have links describing the diet and an old support group on yahoo which helped people with the diet. if I can find it, I'll post it
Basically its low carb for 14 days like atkins then ONE carb meal on Wed then again on Sat or Sun.
Basically its low carb for 14 days like atkins then ONE carb meal on Wed then again on Sat or Sun.
MrMakaveli
New member
http://www.holtreman.net/dragondoor/dietfaq.htm
Unofficial Dragon Door (Publisher) Faq...quite alot of info on NHE for ya.
Unofficial Dragon Door (Publisher) Faq...quite alot of info on NHE for ya.
Kid Dynamite
New member
Coooooooool. Thanks for the info, I'm gonna check it out.
Kid Dynamite
New member
JJF-
Could you give a quick explanation of what the diet entails? And thanks for the site, I'll check it.
Could you give a quick explanation of what the diet entails? And thanks for the site, I'll check it.
a few things right off the top of my head (b/c I dont want to go too deep into it now, just off work)
He totally overemphasizes the effects of natural growth hormone in the body. Elevated GH does very little when raised under natural phsiological means, but it does have great effect when injected b/c it is increased beyond what could possibly be achieved naturally. Gh raised naturally helps lipolysis and growth somewhat mainly by assisting other catelcholemines and hormones in the body to do their job. He puts too much emphasis on it and doesnt have a total understanding of its effects naturally.
Carb meals basically provide NO benefit to leptin whatsoever which is a KEY to keeping hormones normal during a fat loss diet.
Buys into the idea that its all about hormone (insulin control) to lose fat and doesnt emphasize calories which are THE deciding factor in losing fat, hands down. You can't escape simple thermodynamics and I even think he bashes the calorie theory, if so then he completely loses his credentials right there b/c if theres one universal truth that any nutritionist/scientist/doctor/etc etc agrees, its that calories count (except for a few other quacks like atkins, etc) hormones ARE key but so are calories.
Puts a ceiling on protein per meal (50g) w/ no scientific basis whatsoever. Yes, protein can raise insulin but to a much smaller degree, and mixed meals w/ fat/fiber will cause less an increase. He pulled this number out of his ass.
Completely forgot to do ANY research on postworkout nutrition, emphasizing fat and protein to raise test and GH, which will slow the rate protein gets to the muscles, which is ridiculous. If anything a fast whey protein, and even better, carbs to quickly reduce cortisol and allow the protein ingested to get to the muscles easier w/ insulin, and faster as well.
Putz's around in EVERY section of the damn book talking about various topic philosophically but never giving any real solid reccommendations where they should be. Does he even give a protein amt?? or fat amt?? he says, enough, but not too much. yada yada
Talks about negative calories from the thermic effect of some vegetables which is another bunch of BS. (have to look to make sure on this one, but pretty sure he does say this)
Theres more but gotta go.
He totally overemphasizes the effects of natural growth hormone in the body. Elevated GH does very little when raised under natural phsiological means, but it does have great effect when injected b/c it is increased beyond what could possibly be achieved naturally. Gh raised naturally helps lipolysis and growth somewhat mainly by assisting other catelcholemines and hormones in the body to do their job. He puts too much emphasis on it and doesnt have a total understanding of its effects naturally.
Carb meals basically provide NO benefit to leptin whatsoever which is a KEY to keeping hormones normal during a fat loss diet.
Buys into the idea that its all about hormone (insulin control) to lose fat and doesnt emphasize calories which are THE deciding factor in losing fat, hands down. You can't escape simple thermodynamics and I even think he bashes the calorie theory, if so then he completely loses his credentials right there b/c if theres one universal truth that any nutritionist/scientist/doctor/etc etc agrees, its that calories count (except for a few other quacks like atkins, etc) hormones ARE key but so are calories.
Puts a ceiling on protein per meal (50g) w/ no scientific basis whatsoever. Yes, protein can raise insulin but to a much smaller degree, and mixed meals w/ fat/fiber will cause less an increase. He pulled this number out of his ass.
Completely forgot to do ANY research on postworkout nutrition, emphasizing fat and protein to raise test and GH, which will slow the rate protein gets to the muscles, which is ridiculous. If anything a fast whey protein, and even better, carbs to quickly reduce cortisol and allow the protein ingested to get to the muscles easier w/ insulin, and faster as well.
Putz's around in EVERY section of the damn book talking about various topic philosophically but never giving any real solid reccommendations where they should be. Does he even give a protein amt?? or fat amt?? he says, enough, but not too much. yada yada
Talks about negative calories from the thermic effect of some vegetables which is another bunch of BS. (have to look to make sure on this one, but pretty sure he does say this)
Theres more but gotta go.
MrMakaveli
New member
I dont think the guy is too far off:
The ceiling on the protein limit may aim to keep you hungry. Think about it, if I ate 80g of protein in one meal, what are the odds Im going to be able to fit in a meal the next time it rolls around?
About the carb meals, Im not sure if he actually talks about leptin or not but I think it is to restore ATP to the muscles. If you search the m/f/w newsgroup, Duchaine talks about Body-Opus being less than he thought it was going to be due to the ATP depletion that occured about mid-week..hence the mid week carb meal.
Convince people calories dont matter and they are less likely to focus on how starved they are during the diets. If you tell someone calories dont matter they wont focus on food as much throughout the day, 1. reducing stress and 2. reducing the tendancy to eat too much.
The ceiling on the protein limit may aim to keep you hungry. Think about it, if I ate 80g of protein in one meal, what are the odds Im going to be able to fit in a meal the next time it rolls around?
About the carb meals, Im not sure if he actually talks about leptin or not but I think it is to restore ATP to the muscles. If you search the m/f/w newsgroup, Duchaine talks about Body-Opus being less than he thought it was going to be due to the ATP depletion that occured about mid-week..hence the mid week carb meal.
Convince people calories dont matter and they are less likely to focus on how starved they are during the diets. If you tell someone calories dont matter they wont focus on food as much throughout the day, 1. reducing stress and 2. reducing the tendancy to eat too much.
JJFigure
New member
You're right in the regard he doesn't address cutting at all, but I also don't think he was writing this specifically for a bodybuilding population; more for the average person who wants to get leaner but doesn't know how.
To add mass, I followed the bodybuilder plan and it worked quite well for me. I didn't count calories, made sure I ate plenty of clean fat, and managed to put on 1 lb./week for the 5 weeks I was on the plan before I had to start leaning out for the next competition. My bodyfat only increased .5%, so I was pretty happy.
I did count calories the minute I started cutting, because I feel it is very important to make sure you're in caloric deficit. I had a rough idea how many calories I was eating while adding mass, and I started off reducing 250/day the first week and was down 500/day by the second week. I was still eating more than I used to, but was losing the amount of inches/weight I wanted to every week w/out doing more than two 30 minute cardio sessions/week.
However, I did hit a wall after 6 weeks or so (really hungry and really tired), so I started researching refeeds. Based on my research, I'm increasing my carb intake to 3 meals during the last 6 hours of my carb load day (still using things like oatmeal and cream of wheat). This is outside the NHE plan guidelines, but seems to be helping with the fatigue and hunger.
I definitely see the NHE plan as a means to both help gain LBM w/out adding fat, and also as a means to maintain a relatively lean body year-round. It's not a complete cutting plan though, and I'm pretty sure the author didn't mean for it to be one. I just need to figure out exactly what that complete cutting plan is.
To add mass, I followed the bodybuilder plan and it worked quite well for me. I didn't count calories, made sure I ate plenty of clean fat, and managed to put on 1 lb./week for the 5 weeks I was on the plan before I had to start leaning out for the next competition. My bodyfat only increased .5%, so I was pretty happy.
I did count calories the minute I started cutting, because I feel it is very important to make sure you're in caloric deficit. I had a rough idea how many calories I was eating while adding mass, and I started off reducing 250/day the first week and was down 500/day by the second week. I was still eating more than I used to, but was losing the amount of inches/weight I wanted to every week w/out doing more than two 30 minute cardio sessions/week.
However, I did hit a wall after 6 weeks or so (really hungry and really tired), so I started researching refeeds. Based on my research, I'm increasing my carb intake to 3 meals during the last 6 hours of my carb load day (still using things like oatmeal and cream of wheat). This is outside the NHE plan guidelines, but seems to be helping with the fatigue and hunger.
I definitely see the NHE plan as a means to both help gain LBM w/out adding fat, and also as a means to maintain a relatively lean body year-round. It's not a complete cutting plan though, and I'm pretty sure the author didn't mean for it to be one. I just need to figure out exactly what that complete cutting plan is.
JJFigure
New member
Kid Dynamite - here's the plan in a nutshell. Basically, when you're on a carbohydrate-based diet, your body relies on sugar for as the primary source of energy instead of fat. The goal is to turn your body into a "fat burner" instead of a "sugar burner". You go through 7 days of very limited (<20 grams/day) carb intake (but all the fat and protein you want) to initiate this metabolic shift. I handled this shift pretty well, but I guess some people go through hell. You know when your body has started to shift because you stop craving carbs - completely.
After the first seven days, you start cycling your intake of carbs. You go two more days (8 & 9) on <30 - <60 grams of carb per day, then on day 10 you get to cycle in starchy carbs during your last 1-2 meals of the day. You don't get to eat much fat or protein, just starchy carbs. This replenishes your muscle glycogen and liver glycogen stores. Next, you go three days (11, 12, 13) on <30 - <60 grams of carb per day and carb load on day 14. In other words, of each week, you carb load on day 3 and day 7 of the week.
There is a protein limit, making this a moderate protein, higher fat diet. The protein limit addresses the fact your body can only digest and make use of a certain amount of protein, and if you ate unlimited protein 6 x a day, you are intaking more protein than your body can use. Also, you can potentially have an insulin spike from excess protein. Instead, you make up the rest of your calories with clean fat intake (olive oil, canola oil, fatty fish, flax seed oil, etc). The author approaches everything with a 'use some common sense' attitute. Don't eat a jar of peanut butter or a whole block of cheese, that kind of thing. He doesn't advocate counting calories, and I don't think you need to on this plan if you aren't aiming for extremely low bodyfat. The plan also addresses following a workout plan and lifestyle aimed at keeping natural growth hormone production and testosterone production high - get plenty of sleep, limit drinking/smoking, limit length of time working out, etc. I'll let you read up on all that stuff.
My one frustration is the plan doesn't address the extreme cutting we want to achieve, so I've kind of had to wing it. :-(
After the first seven days, you start cycling your intake of carbs. You go two more days (8 & 9) on <30 - <60 grams of carb per day, then on day 10 you get to cycle in starchy carbs during your last 1-2 meals of the day. You don't get to eat much fat or protein, just starchy carbs. This replenishes your muscle glycogen and liver glycogen stores. Next, you go three days (11, 12, 13) on <30 - <60 grams of carb per day and carb load on day 14. In other words, of each week, you carb load on day 3 and day 7 of the week.
There is a protein limit, making this a moderate protein, higher fat diet. The protein limit addresses the fact your body can only digest and make use of a certain amount of protein, and if you ate unlimited protein 6 x a day, you are intaking more protein than your body can use. Also, you can potentially have an insulin spike from excess protein. Instead, you make up the rest of your calories with clean fat intake (olive oil, canola oil, fatty fish, flax seed oil, etc). The author approaches everything with a 'use some common sense' attitute. Don't eat a jar of peanut butter or a whole block of cheese, that kind of thing. He doesn't advocate counting calories, and I don't think you need to on this plan if you aren't aiming for extremely low bodyfat. The plan also addresses following a workout plan and lifestyle aimed at keeping natural growth hormone production and testosterone production high - get plenty of sleep, limit drinking/smoking, limit length of time working out, etc. I'll let you read up on all that stuff.
My one frustration is the plan doesn't address the extreme cutting we want to achieve, so I've kind of had to wing it. :-(
Kid Dynamite
New member
JJF-
Thanks for the info.
Thanks for the info.
PwB got it right. (Although I believe that even exogenous GH has limited effects)
NHE is a good book with lots of references. (Although references can back whichever side of the argument you decide to pick) But it's off base on a lot of things IMO and ironically, doesn't get much into what the title suggests. (No mention of supps.)
The author is also young with good genetics. (Which always makes me suspicious of how effective the actual "techniques" are.) But he's done his homework and the book is worth having -- along with the proverbial grain of salt.
NHE is a good book with lots of references. (Although references can back whichever side of the argument you decide to pick) But it's off base on a lot of things IMO and ironically, doesn't get much into what the title suggests. (No mention of supps.)
The author is also young with good genetics. (Which always makes me suspicious of how effective the actual "techniques" are.) But he's done his homework and the book is worth having -- along with the proverbial grain of salt.
JJFigure
New member
I have to admit, after reading nutrition/diet books where the author just spouted their beliefs without doing the background work of at least finding studies to support their beliefs, NHE was a pleasant surprise. The author went to a lot of work finding studies that supported his plan; Nelson is right though; you can usually find plenty of studies to support both sides of your argument. At least the author did his research.
I just finished reading Don Lemmon's Know How - very slimly referenced and a lot of 'just do it because I say so'.
I just finished reading Don Lemmon's Know How - very slimly referenced and a lot of 'just do it because I say so'.
Kid Dynamite
New member
Statistics can be used to prove anything. 87% of all people know that.
Anyway, I agree you can potentially back up any argument you want w/an article from somewhere, so there's alot of bogus info floatin' around these days.
Anyway, I agree you can potentially back up any argument you want w/an article from somewhere, so there's alot of bogus info floatin' around these days.
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