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My bulking diet

jsimon

New member
im 180 LB

This is for putting on some mass

Meal One: 1cup 1/2 shredded PLAIN wheats
2 scoops of whey protien
4 egg whites
Total Protien: 58g Carbs:60g

Meal Two: Chicken Breast
1 cup of brown rice
2 cups of skim milk
1/2 veggies (green)
Total Protien 48g Carbs 60g

Meal Three: The Same As Meal Two

Meal Four: The Same as Meal Three

Meal Five: The same as meal four

PWO: 3 scoops of whey 60g of detrose

Then Meal 6 the same as the others>

Is this good or bad?
 
You'll need some efa's in there (essential fatty acids). Fish oil is a good source. I'd try that diet out for 2 weeks and keep your eye on the scale. To me, it doesn't look like a lot of food, but as long as you're gaining weight it doesn't matter. Aim for 2lbs a week, unless you're on aas.
 
I'm with booey, sub two meals of chicken with beef, add the efa's. Thats more calories right there. Look for clean, calorie dense foods when bulking . This will help minimize the "stuffed turkey" feeling day after day.
 
Synthetic1 said:
I'm with booey, sub two meals of chicken with beef, add the efa's. Thats more calories right there. Look for clean, calorie dense foods when bulking . This will help minimize the "stuffed turkey" feeling day after day.

Is it still a good idea to partition foods while builking? ie. keep the PRo fat meals and the PRO carbs meals separate? no fats and carbs in same meal? would make it a lot harder to arrange meals while eating that much if doing so i'd imagine. Any thoughts?
VW
 
Personally, I'd use a few different carb sources (oats, yams, whole wheat pasta) as a sub for some of the rice......just so u dont get burned out....ALso, try to get in 2 meals PW, at least one with CARBS....sorry borg...you need the carbs PW........
 
but other than the skim milk and dextrose PW its only complex carbs
...i'm fine with the post workout dextrose... i'd maybe cut the skim milk but if he's bulking then it's not a prob...
 
Just my opinion of course. But I don't think there is enough food in there to...BULK up!

Not enough carbs, calories or fats! Protein seems to be ok though. But I would def. try to get in more of the rest.
 
Carth said:
Just my opinion of course. But I don't think there is enough food in there to...BULK up!

Not enough carbs, calories or fats! Protein seems to be ok though. But I would def. try to get in more of the rest.


I think his carbs and protein AND cals are decent bro............it's about 400g of each, but I do agree he needs some healthy fats in there.......switch in a couple of eggs, some lean beef, some peanut butter on wheat, some flax, or some nuts bro....pre-bed.
 
JKurz1 said:
I think his carbs and protein AND cals are decent bro............it's about 400g of each, but I do agree he needs some healthy fats in there.......switch in a couple of eggs, some lean beef, some peanut butter on wheat, some flax, or some nuts bro....pre-bed.

I don't know. To each his own. I like to really pack it up for bulking cycles. Carbs easily up to 600-800grams per day. But like I said....to each his own. Shit! I might not even do that anymore. I actually happy the size I am now. Maybe just a tad bit bigger and leaner and that will do it. But I don't think I want to go past the 220lb mark anymore.
 
It also depends on how fat you want to let yourself get and how active you are during the day............are you pretty active Carth, or do u have a desk job?

Do you do any cardio?


What is your meal plan like and AAS stack?
 
I agree with Carth, You need more cals and def. more fats from either fish or olive oil. the fats also slow absorption reduseing insulin spiking which is why I like to eat a 30/30/40 spilt of pro, fats and carbs per meal.
 
JKurz1 said:
It also depends on how fat you want to let yourself get and how active you are during the day............are you pretty active Carth, or do u have a desk job?

Do you do any cardio?


What is your meal plan like and AAS stack?

I dont' do cardio because I never have the time for it. I'm just as active as any person is. I just eat clean bro. I get fat. We all do. Here...this is me on my last week of bulking. I did lose 13lbs a week prior because of food poisoining. But not too bad huh? This is a result of heavy eating! Way more than this guy is talking about.


IMG_7500.jpg
 
You arentr just as active as anyone else is bro.......you can't say that. Many of us sit behind a desk 10 hours a day and then go train. You try and eat 5,000 cals while doing nothing all day....not easy.

Some work construction and therefore need double the cals.....the answer is not in the carbs, that totally depends on activity. I train from 5-630 and go to bed by 930. How am I onna get in 3 meals post training???
 
looks good but its so redundant I'd get sick of it quickly
 
JKurz1 said:
You arentr just as active as anyone else is bro.......you can't say that. Many of us sit behind a desk 10 hours a day and then go train. You try and eat 5,000 cals while doing nothing all day....not easy.

Some work construction and therefore need double the cals.....the answer is not in the carbs, that totally depends on activity. I train from 5-630 and go to bed by 930. How am I onna get in 3 meals post training???

I see what you're saying. But then again...I train first thing in the morning. Try lifinting heavy ass weights with only a shake in your stomach as your first meal. Its not the same like already having 2-4 meals in your stomach before training.
 
Carth.....your diet pretty clean when you bulk? Gear of choice???

I'm thinking about taking a much needed day off from the gym and going to get me about 2 dozen krispy kremes to start the bulking season off right.
 
JKurz1 said:
Carth.....your diet pretty clean when you bulk? Gear of choice???

I'm thinking about taking a much needed day off from the gym and going to get me about 2 dozen krispy kremes to start the bulking season off right.

It is clean Monday - Friday. Never weekends! Not even while cutting. My stack of choice for bulking you ask????? If so...

Test/EQ/Slin..../dbol?????

Dbol keeps fucking with me. I love it but then again it always seems to betray me!!! It'll leave me with tendonitis of the elbows or forearm splints that are fucking painful!!!

So..

Test/EQ/Slin about Dbol. Don't know if I want to add this again. EVER!!!
 
GImme the low down of a daily clean diet opposed to a weekend "whatever"..........you eating carbs all the way up to bed?

Say you train at 5pm like I do.........you have a protein carb meal at 3pm..........then at 6:30, its a whey/oats shake to get it in............then, last meal of the day, just before bed....cottage cheese and peanuts????
 
Oh, and thank you Carth for that last post......you sold me...my procrastinating is over. Test and Eq it is starting next monday.....I've been off for years, so Im gonna try 350mg test and 400mg of eq to start with..........maybe a little dbol like Radar does (10g), but I dont have anything to control the bloat. Plus, I like cardio to keep the water down too much (heard it plays havoc on your back!!)

I've been doing cardio first thing in the am, and then a quick 15 minutes after training........looks like one or the other will have to stop..........cut out the pm cardio????
 
JKurz1 said:
GImme the low down of a daily clean diet opposed to a weekend "whatever"..........you eating carbs all the way up to bed?

Say you train at 5pm like I do.........you have a protein carb meal at 3pm..........then at 6:30, its a whey/oats shake to get it in............then, last meal of the day, just before bed....cottage cheese and peanuts????

I eat sweet potatos, brown rice, oatmeal. Clean shit bro. Tuna, chicken breast. All clean...no sauces or spices or any shit like that. Weekends...anything bro! As long as there is some protein in it. I'm cool with it.
 
What about when you HAVE to train at night..say at 9pm...is (if your cutting) your PWO w/dextrose? is that ok...usually before bed i do what JKurz does and have the 1C fatfree cottage cheese with a handfull of peanuts...
 
swordfish151 said:
What about when you HAVE to train at night..say at 9pm...is (if your cutting) your PWO w/dextrose? is that ok...usually before bed i do what JKurz does and have the 1C fatfree cottage cheese with a handfull of peanuts...
Hows it working for you bro?

I'm going with a test enth and eq 12 weeker starting monday........I plan on slamming the cals....fuck it.....I'll get shredded again soon enough. I figure I'll be so sick of eating, that cutting will be a pleasure!
 
van_wilder said:
Agreed... i couldn't imagine bulking on such a redundant diet and then trying to cut after that!
VW

All depends on your level of dedication. Im sure it would pay off majorly for a serious competitor, but an average joe probably wouldnt matter if he walked around at 13% instead of 7% in the off season/.
 
Borg4902 said:
All depends on your level of dedication. Im sure it would pay off majorly for a serious competitor, but an average joe probably wouldnt matter if he walked around at 13% instead of 7% in the off season/.

Oh i agree... i'm doing it right now while cutting so I realize the dedication... and I eat fairly cleanly even while bulking but I'm just saying unless this is your career, it's nice to have a balance to life at least while bulking. I mean fuck... are you gonna give up a nice hot bowl of chilli, or the occasional slice of pizza or bowl of ice cream year round??? c'mon... you gotta live too!!!!
VW :p
 
JKurz1 said:
Hows it working for you bro?

I'm going with a test enth and eq 12 weeker starting monday........I plan on slamming the cals....fuck it.....I'll get shredded again soon enough. I figure I'll be so sick of eating, that cutting will be a pleasure!

You'll do just fine bro....well on the days that i HAVE to work out late..i just switch around my meal..meaning if i usually eat cottage cheese/peanuts before bed..i will have that as soon as i get home..then go work out then have my PWO shake...so far so good.
 
swordfish151 said:
You'll do just fine bro....well on the days that i HAVE to work out late..i just switch around my meal..meaning if i usually eat cottage cheese/peanuts before bed..i will have that as soon as i get home..then go work out then have my PWO shake...so far so good.
tsk tsk
 
I don't know about your metabolisim, so I won't speak for the carb totals. But I would certainly scale down the amount of carbs after meal number 4. That is assuming you are going for a "clean" bulk.
 
swordfish151 said:
awwwe...what?? dammit tell me...lol...
never go to bed with just a whey shake and some simple carbs in your tank bro...

as for scaling back after meal #4, totally dependent on when you train and how big and strong you want to get..........some will wake up and eat in the middle of the night...........you choose what works for you
 
JKurz1 said:
never go to bed with just a whey shake and some simple carbs in your tank bro...

as for scaling back after meal #4, totally dependent on when you train and how big and strong you want to get..........some will wake up and eat in the middle of the night...........you choose what works for you

yeah i know..but the PWO is drank around 10...you suggest cottage cheese/peanuts an hour after that? that wouldnt be such a bad idea.
 
swordfish151 said:
yeah i know..but the PWO is drank around 10...you suggest cottage cheese/peanuts an hour after that? that wouldnt be such a bad idea.

yeah..i'd definately suggest that! last thing you want to do is go to bed with whey and simple sugars running through your system.
On that note, I work out pretty late at night and I'm cutting right now, I have still been told to keep the carbs in for my last meal... you'll be fine as long as they're the right kind of carbs...
VW
 
swordfish151 said:
yeah i know..but the PWO is drank around 10...you suggest cottage cheese/peanuts an hour after that? that wouldnt be such a bad idea.
dude.....I eat llike 3 seconds before I crash...sometimes I zonk out mid-chew....seriously....eat.....it can be a 1/2 hour....actually, I'd rather see you skip the shake if you are that worried and just get the meal in............optimal would be to do both.....EAT!

Van wil - how close to bed do you chow?
 
JKurz1 said:
dude.....I eat llike 3 seconds before I crash...sometimes I zonk out mid-chew....seriously....eat.....it can be a 1/2 hour....actually, I'd rather see you skip the shake if you are that worried and just get the meal in............optimal would be to do both.....EAT!

Van wil - how close to bed do you chow?

Perfect! Good to know..so on my late nights i will do the PWO shake and right before i crash at 11 or so..i will consume 1C fatfree cottage cheese/handful of peanuts...
 
JKurz1 said:
dude.....I eat llike 3 seconds before I crash...sometimes I zonk out mid-chew....seriously....eat.....it can be a 1/2 hour....actually, I'd rather see you skip the shake if you are that worried and just get the meal in............optimal would be to do both.....EAT!

Van wil - how close to bed do you chow?

done at the gym at 930...and have my shake immediately after with dextrose and oatmeal
then
eat a meal of chicken breast 300g and 1 cup brown rice and 1cup broccoli at 1030
at 1130/12 i'll have some Cott cheese and peanut butter (although this meal has become significantly smaller since i'm cutting ~25g of PRO now) I've been told now that i'm getting further into my cutting that I should cut this meal out as well... and this has been said by numerous diet gurus on this board and others so i'm going to cut it out starting next week.
 
van_wilder said:
done at the gym at 930...and have my shake immediately after with dextrose and oatmeal
then
eat a meal of chicken breast 300g and 1 cup brown rice and 1cup broccoli at 1030
at 1130/12 i'll have some Cott cheese and peanut butter (although this meal has become significantly smaller since i'm cutting ~25g of PRO now) I've been told now that i'm getting further into my cutting that I should cut this meal out as well... and this has been said by numerous diet gurus on this board and others so i'm going to cut it out starting next week.

They've all said not too worry about the carbs before bed, and that it's more important to get these quality carbs in than anything else...so i've been doing that and still cutting bodyfat pretty well. Further into my cutting diet though i'll prob eventually cut these carbs out along with most of the others.
 
do any of you go with the eat anything you see diet?
i mean i'm constantly trying to bulk and don't even want to think about cutting. i started out two years ago at 5' 11'' 160 now i'm 211 as of yesterday and over that period i've probably added about 4% bodyfat. i'm probably around 14% give or take a percent, and to be honest if it has protein in it, I eat it. i don't go around eating doughnuts or anything, but i just try to eat a lot of everything.
 
I will never eat carbs before bed bulking cutting or cheating. I just dont see the sence in it. Do you need enery while your sleeping? No... For me personally when bulking I will cut all carbs at 6-7pm. Noted in the off-season I go to bed at midnight. Van in my opinion you need to sacrafice carbs at night not protein. Maybe you misunderstood, you could be just taking to much pro from shakes and not real food. Im not shure though, and hey Kurtz, look at the kind of guys that wake up in the middle of the night to eat, fat is the least of there worries.
 
tryn2grow said:
do any of you go with the eat anything you see diet?
i mean i'm constantly trying to bulk and don't even want to think about cutting. i started out two years ago at 5' 11'' 160 now i'm 211 as of yesterday and over that period i've probably added about 4% bodyfat. i'm probably around 14% give or take a percent, and to be honest if it has protein in it, I eat it. i don't go around eating doughnuts or anything, but i just try to eat a lot of everything.

Some people can get away with that and others can't. I'd wager to say it's never optimal though.
 
Borg4902 said:
I will never eat carbs before bed bulking cutting or cheating. I just dont see the sence in it. Do you need enery while your sleeping?

While I agree that if you are going to cut one macronutrient before bed it should be carbs, the point of carbs post-workout is glycogen replenishment. This should be done whether you workout at 8am or 8pm, doesn't matter.
 
Borg4902 said:
I will never eat carbs before bed bulking cutting or cheating. I just dont see the sence in it. Do you need enery while your sleeping? No... For me personally when bulking I will cut all carbs at 6-7pm. Noted in the off-season I go to bed at midnight. Van in my opinion you need to sacrafice carbs at night not protein. Maybe you misunderstood, you could be just taking to much pro from shakes and not real food. Im not shure though, and hey Kurtz, look at the kind of guys that wake up in the middle of the night to eat, fat is the least of there worries.

i think the argument for it is the fact that my workouts are at night... and the most important time to take in carbs are PW... also, as long as these are very low glycemic carbs the benefits far outweigh the negatives. joe got to it before me... bastard :p

and borg..were you talking to me about too many shakes from PRO? i'm only taking two shakes all day... one is a casein shake b/w meals and the other is my PW shake (whey)... so where did you get that from?
VW
 
Joe Stenson said:
Some people can get away with that and others can't. I'd wager to say it's never optimal though.

i agree with that, but man its tough bein poor in college and trying to cook for yourself. i mean i eat a lot of tuna, chicken, turkey sandwhiches and what not, but pretty much i just eat what i can and a lot of it. it doesn't seem to work to bad. i've gone from being a skinny kid to decent size within few years, and my lifting partner has done the same and he eats like hell and i'd say he is still 8% bf and thats a high estimate, we just sit down and eat anything that comes out way. i was just curious if anyone else felt this way, but it seems that most people on this board count calories, protein, carbs, etc.
 
tryn2grow said:
i agree with that, but man its tough bein poor in college and trying to cook for yourself. i mean i eat a lot of tuna, chicken, turkey sandwhiches and what not, but pretty much i just eat what i can and a lot of it. it doesn't seem to work to bad. i've gone from being a skinny kid to decent size within few years, and my lifting partner has done the same and he eats like hell and i'd say he is still 8% bf and thats a high estimate, we just sit down and eat anything that comes out way. i was just curious if anyone else felt this way, but it seems that most people on this board count calories, protein, carbs, etc.


i doubt he's at 8% if this is his diet... if he is then he is a genetic freak... I don't think many people understand how low single digits are... but this is a whole different issue that has been done to death on this board.

I also believe some people can get away with this especially while younger while their metabolism is still really fast... and this may be fine if you just can't get in enough cals to grow, but why not bulk "clean" and minimize the cutting you'll have to do later?

Finally... i've found it to be cheaper to eat the way i do... junk food can get pretty pricey... my food bill is lot because of the amount, but if i was eating the same amount of junk food i'd bet it'd be more!

VW
 
tryn2grow said:
i was just curious if anyone else felt this way, but it seems that most people on this board count calories, protein, carbs, etc.

You can still eat "clean" if you're cooking for yourself in college. I know lots of people that do it. If you can get away with eating whatever you want I say go for it, but don't use school as an excuse.

I'd say there's 2 main reasons people count calories:

1) A lot of people aren't blessed with the metabolism you are and can't afford to eat whatever they please.

2) It's the only way you'll ever be able to accurately fix your diet if things stop working.
 
van_wilder said:
Finally... i've found it to be cheaper to eat the way i do... junk food can get pretty pricey... my food bill is lot because of the amount, but if i was eating the same amount of junk food i'd bet it'd be more!

This is something most people fail to realize and is why I can't stand the excuse of "I'm poor so I can't eat clean".
 
Boy I tell you what those brown rice oats tuna and egg bills are killer. Wtf, knowone said it has to be filets all the time. I am getting real sick of people's lame shit diet excuses. Im a trainer and have heard them all.
 
i'm not making excuses. and i don't really care to be honest. if u want real excuses its 1. i don't like to shop 2. i don't like to cook 3. i don't like to clean shit after i cook. i was just wondering there were other bros that ust tried to eat a lot without being so precise all the time. on top of that i don't want to be a pro bb. i got into this game with the intentions of trying to get big and strong. i started at 160 with a six pack benching like 225. now i'm 210 or so hanging on to the top four abs and bench 340. i'm not trying to start arguments and i know my diet isn't the best by any means. i just know that it was hard for me to gain weight unless i just ate everything in my site. if i had a great diet, results would have been better, but hey i'm not complaining
 
Borg4902 said:
Boy I tell you what those brown rice oats tuna and egg bills are killer. Wtf, knowone said it has to be filets all the time. I am getting real sick of people's lame shit diet excuses. Im a trainer and have heard them all.
Not a flame, but you'll be extremely hard pressed to find any knowledgeable bb'r who will say no carbs after XX oclock ESPECIALLY IF YOU TRAIN AT NIGHT>.....you need those carbs bro....your body is a furnace and it will NOT store it...........trust me..........
 
tryn2grow said:
i'm not making excuses. and i don't really care to be honest. if u want real excuses its 1. i don't like to shop 2. i don't like to cook 3. i don't like to clean shit after i cook. i was just wondering there were other bros that ust tried to eat a lot without being so precise all the time. on top of that i don't want to be a pro bb. i got into this game with the intentions of trying to get big and strong. i started at 160 with a six pack benching like 225. now i'm 210 or so hanging on to the top four abs and bench 340. i'm not trying to start arguments and i know my diet isn't the best by any means. i just know that it was hard for me to gain weight unless i just ate everything in my site. if i had a great diet, results would have been better, but hey i'm not complaining

I guess then it depends on the look your going for bro......you want to do shit half ass...then you will look half ass..its all in what you want...or make of it.
 
tryn2grow said:
i'm not making excuses. and i don't really care to be honest. if u want real excuses its 1. i don't like to shop 2. i don't like to cook 3. i don't like to clean shit after i cook. i was just wondering there were other bros that ust tried to eat a lot without being so precise all the time. on top of that i don't want to be a pro bb. i got into this game with the intentions of trying to get big and strong. i started at 160 with a six pack benching like 225. now i'm 210 or so hanging on to the top four abs and bench 340. i'm not trying to start arguments and i know my diet isn't the best by any means. i just know that it was hard for me to gain weight unless i just ate everything in my site. if i had a great diet, results would have been better, but hey i'm not complaining

well if it's worked so well for you then what are you asking? what's the point of your post??
 
van_wilder said:
well if it's worked so well for you then what are you asking? what's the point of your post??
SOme take bodybuilding to different levels and everyone is different.,....me? I enjoy cooking, I enjoy shopping for different foods, etc. I have cheated in years, no fast food in over 7...........you get my point. I'm going to start a bulking plan where I'm stict as hell M-F and then free up Friday night - Sunday to where as long as there is protein in the meal, I'll have it. It's about living life. I want to look good yet have fun. WIn WIn.
 
Well, those were some of the first things out of Mr. X's mouth when he advised me the first day I joined this board. Kurtz please explain to me why carbs are essential at night? I used the clock to give a better perception of when I cut mine since knowone knows what time I go to sleep.
 
JKurz1 said:
Not a flame, but you'll be extremely hard pressed to find any knowledgeable bb'r who will say no carbs after XX oclock ESPECIALLY IF YOU TRAIN AT NIGHT>.....you need those carbs bro....your body is a furnace and it will NOT store it...........trust me..........

The key word there being "knowledgeable". You'll hear lots of bodybuilders saying that. Ask them why and then see them a) mutter something incoherent and run off or b) tell you some BS that they read in a musclemag.

tryn2grow said:
i'm not making excuses. and i don't really care to be honest. if u want real excuses its 1. i don't like to shop 2. i don't like to cook 3. i don't like to clean shit after i cook. i was just wondering there were other bros that ust tried to eat a lot without being so precise all the time. on top of that i don't want to be a pro bb. i got into this game with the intentions of trying to get big and strong. i started at 160 with a six pack benching like 225. now i'm 210 or so hanging on to the top four abs and bench 340. i'm not trying to start arguments and i know my diet isn't the best by any means. i just know that it was hard for me to gain weight unless i just ate everything in my site. if i had a great diet, results would have been better, but hey i'm not complaining

If something's working for you, and especially if you're not going to change your ways anyway, then don't try to get permission for something you know isn't optimal; it's just wasting everyone's time.

As for cooking, I don't know to what degree your laziness extends, but most clean foods require very little in the way of preparation, excluding meats (think about oats, cottage cheese, natural peanut butter, etc.).
 
JKurz1 said:
SOme take bodybuilding to different levels and everyone is different.,....me? I enjoy cooking, I enjoy shopping for different foods, etc. I have cheated in years, no fast food in over 7...........you get my point. I'm going to start a bulking plan where I'm stict as hell M-F and then free up Friday night - Sunday to where as long as there is protein in the meal, I'll have it. It's about living life. I want to look good yet have fun. WIn WIn.

I agree that people work at different levels.. my post wasn't aimed at you..rather at tryn2grow... I'm in total agreement with you.. his post was asking why he should care about counting cals if what he is doing works for him... i was simply stating that if it is working for him and he doesn't care about counting cals then what's the point of his post.
 
Borg4902 said:
Well, those were some of the first things out of Mr. X's mouth when he advised me the first day I joined this board. Kurtz please explain to me why carbs are essential at night? I used the clock to give a better perception of when I cut mine since knowone knows what time I go to sleep.

I'll let JKurtz give his response as well (which may very well differ from mine), but I'll chime in. Carbs are not ESSENTIAL at night, even after training. After training they will go to re-filling glycogen stores, so you're even less likely to store them as fat than at any other time of day. Other than that, if you are within your caloric limitations for the day, you won't gain fat from eating carbs at night.

That being said, I agree that protein, and even healthy fats, are what you should be concerned with at night. It's just not to say that carbs will do anything negative.
 
When I first began pushing iron, I knew very little about the science of weight training and nutrition. And to be honest, I really didn't care much about the science part. You see, I was 18 years old. At that age, all I personally cared about was being big, strong, and intimidating. Oh, and I'd better not forget to mention that I also cared a lot about sex. Somehow I figured that the pursuit of raw, intimidating "manliness" would ultimately equate to getting chicks. So most of my mental reserves were directed at getting really big and kicking everyone's ass both in and out of the gym.

Since my brain was pretty much occupied with all those deep philosophical musings, you can probably imagine that there wasn't much room in my melon for scientific thought. That was compounded with the fact that my predominant science experiences had been with Mr. Richard Wack, the very nerdy, defeated high-school chemistry teacher that had us mixing oil and water to illustrate chemical bonding or lack thereof (I swear that was his name!).

At the time, as ignorant as I was to science, there were a few scientifically validated nuggets of wisdom floating around the local gym. Sure, if I'd have known they were "science," I probably would have ignored them entirely. But since these pieces of science were cleverly disguised and because all the big guys were talking about them, I tried to use this information to it's fullest.

We discussed the merits of statements like "eating a lot of extra protein will make you grow" and "sleeping 8 hours a night will help you recover." These statements seemed to be entirely true and backed up by countless gym experiences. Today, they also happen to be backed up by well-controlled, university studies.

One statement that I was always quite fond of was the one that told me that there was a 90-minute "window of opportunity" after training in which I could eat tons of protein and carbohydrates. Since I love eating protein and carbs, I loved that particular gym "fact." And not only was it cool that it allowed me to pig out on protein and carbs after my workouts, it was equally exciting that in doing so, I would be recovering from my workout and packing on muscle mass at an alarming rate. "Who needs science?" I'd ask, "I'm gonna go eat!"

Unfortunately, somewhere along the way, this crucial piece of post-workout wisdom has been lost. As a result, few modern trainees have even heard of the "window of opportunity" concept. Some guys today just think that eating "a little something" is enough. To go even further, some even have the audacity to fast for hours after workouts in order to "burn more fat" or to "enhance their GH response." It frightens me that these new practices are almost becoming as popular as the old window I was so fond of taking full advantage of. But I'm here to do something about it!

Despite the anti-science beginnings I discussed earlier, you may be amazed to know my current profession involves scientific research. In fact, I sit here typing this article surrounded by nothing other than science textbooks and journals. It constitutes some of the literature that I've read along the way to a PhD program in exercise and nutritional biochemistry. Who would of thunk it? Armed with all this science, my plan is to unscramble the post-workout puzzle that has lead so many trainees astray.


Post-Workout 101

Over the last few years, I've spent quite a bit of time trying to unscramble the post-workout puzzle in my own mind. And as a result of my research, I've discovered that immediately after a single bout of exercise, three main physiological events must be manipulated for enhanced recovery. These changes can only be described as "destructive" in terms of both training performance and muscle protein balance.

Before I go on, I want you to keep in mind that by exercise I mean either strength and power training or endurance training. Unfortunately, no trainee is immune to the three post-exercise phenomena. These three factors are as follows:

1. Glycogen Stores are low
2. Protein Breakdown is increased
3. Muscle Protein Balance is negative

It should be noted here that in addition to the above that Protein Synthesis also goes down after an endurance training session. And Protein Synthesis either goes up or remains unchanged after a strength training session. But either way, Protein Breakdown still predominates.

For those not well versed in physiological jargon, here's a little explanation of each:

Glycogen is muscle energy. Low glycogen stores mean that there's less cellular energy for daily life and certainly less energy for subsequent workouts. In this situation, training and performance suffer.

Protein Breakdown indicates that body tissues (which are made of protein) are being degraded. Increases in protein breakdown can lead to losses of muscle mass.

Muscle Protein Balance is regulated by the balance between Protein Synthesis and Protein Breakdown in the following way:

Muscle Protein Balance = Protein Synthesis - Protein Breakdown

Immediately after an endurance workout, protein synthesis (building) goes down and protein breakdown goes up. This leads to a negative Muscle Protein Balance and a loss of muscle.

And immediately after a strength workout, protein building either stays the same or slightly goes up but protein breakdown goes way up. This also leads to a negative Muscle Protein Balance and a loss of muscle.

As a result of these three post workout phenomena, a failure to rapidly bring the body back into recovery mode (i.e., to increase glycogen stores, to increase protein synthesis, and to prevent protein breakdown), has severeal potential consequences:

1. Prolonged muscle soreness and fatigue.

2. Poor subsequent performances on the track, field, and/or in the gym.

3. Symptoms of and or full-flegged staleness and overtraining.

4. Minimal gains in muscle mass despite a well-designed training program.

5. Losses of muscle mass and a secondary lowering of metabolic rate can occur if volume and intensity get high enough

"But wait just a minute!" you shout. "I thought exercise was supposed to increase performance, metabolic rate, and muscle mass! Now you're telling me that it could do just the opposite." Slow down, tiger. Let me explain.

It's interesting and very telling to look at the time course of changes in protein and glycogen balance after a workout. Back in 1995, researchers showed that immediately after strength training, protein balance is negative (indicating muscle loss) due to the big increase in protein breakdown and the marginal increase in protein synthesis (1).

Furthermore, this situation seemed to persist for a few hours after the workout. But a few hours later, an interesting switch occurred. Protein synthesis started to climb and breakdown started to fall (although it was still elevated).

This ultimately (about 24 hours later) can lead to a muscle protein balance where synthesis is equal to breakdown (no gain or loss in mass), or a positive protein balance where synthesis is greater than protein breakdown (voila, muscle gains).

So, even if you do everything wrong after hitting the iron, it's only the first few hours after the workout that are extremely catabolic. Twenty-four hours later, though, the body has normalized itself and is either neutral or slightly anabolic. So it appears that under normal circumstances, we've got to lose a little muscle to gain a little muscle.

I'm here to tell you, however, that if you manage the post-workout period correctly, you don't have to lose any muscle. And not only that, if you know how, you can actually achieve and maintain a positive protein balance throughout the entire recovery process. We'll talk more about this later on.

Unfortunately for our endurance friends, the prognosis isn't as good as it is for the muscle bound. Immediately after an endurance-training bout, muscle protein balance is very negative because there's both a big increase in protein breakdown and a big decrease in protein synthesis.

This situation, however, isn't as quickly reversible as it is in our muscle heads. In these athletes there remains a large negative protein balance for 8 hours or more after endurance exercise (2). Uh, say goodbye to the muscle!

Please keep in mind that these exercise studies were done with a day of rest following the training and measurement period. And most importantly, they were done without proper post-workout nutrition!

So, what about the athletes who are training every day (and up to two times or more per day) and then screw up on the post-workout nutrition? One can only speculate that they'll suffer from a big negative muscle protein balance. Since they're training time and time again before protein balance has been brought back to normal, they'll nearly always be in a state of protein breakdown. Bye-bye muscle, metabolism, and training intensity!

With this explained, I'd like to get back to the original objection. I believe that since the average trainee isn't training with the high frequency and intensity that could lead to large and persistent losses in muscle mass and metabolic rate, he or she has very little to worry about in terms of losses of muscle mass and metabolic rate.

With that said, however, the first four problems listed above (soreness, poor performance, overtraining, and stagnation) are often very much a reality for the average athlete and their valiant gym efforts could become frustrating and seem fruitless. Optimal post-workout nutrition can play heavily into the avoidance of the problems discussed above.

Competitive athletes, on the other hand, are particularly vulnerable to all of the above scenarios (including losses in mass and metabolic rate). Due to their training frequency, lack of time off, and intense work rates, most athletes are walking a fine line between their optimal training zone and overtraining. This is one of the reasons why they're subject to all types of ailments during their seasons.

The competitive athlete frequently has to suffer through excessive fatigue yet an inability to sleep at night, chronic muscle soreness, gastrointestinal and appetite alterations, irritability, loss of sex drive, and frequent infections and flu-like symptoms, just to name a few.

While overtraining in these athletes is brought on by a complex interaction between many factors, nutrition is one factor that is so easy to manage. Any competitive athlete would be foolish to ignore it as they wage war against the dreaded adversary ? overtraining.


Back to Recovery Mode

At this point, if I've accomplished my mission, you should be pretty terrified by the negative effects of the unmanaged post-workout period. But now that you're afraid, I'm going to tell you exactly how you can best avoid the aforementioned problems.

In October of 2000, I was sitting in a conference center in Canmore, Alberta. There I was, listening to a presentation by one of the world's experts on post-workout and recovery nutrition (2). Up until this point, I thought I had a pretty good idea of how to eat during the post-workout period in order to maximize recovery. But after this presentation I realized that I had been missing one essential piece of the post-workout puzzle. In this article, grasshopper, I'm going to share the secrets with you.

For rapid recovery from exercise, immediately after a workout (strength or endurance), we must:

1. Rapidly replenish the low glycogen stores in our muscles

2. Rapidly decrease the muscle protein breakdown that occurs with exercise

3. Rapidly force further increases in muscle protein synthesis in weight trainers and/or restore muscle-protein synthesis in endurance athletes

In looking over this list, there are several things to keep in mind. First, remember that glycogen replenishment is important for several things. It's necessary for maintaining peak performance in both resistance and endurance training (3,4,5). In addition, if glycogen stores remain low, muscle protein breakdown can result and lead to loss of muscle mass (6). Finally, since glycogen attracts water to the muscle, the cellular hydration that results may stimulate new growth.

Another thing to consider is the protein balance factor. By rapidly increasing protein synthesis while simultaneously decreasing protein breakdown, you can shift to a positive muscle protein balance within 1 hour after the workout (7). Did you get that? You can recover within 1 hour!

Remember I said earlier that typically a trainee has to wait 24 hours for a positive muscle protein balance (1)? Unfortunately, even after this 24-hour period, recovery only means that there's at best only a neutral muscle protein balance (there's no longer breakdown, but building isn't occurring either). Using recovery nutrition, you can recovery nearly a day earlier that you otherwise would have!

And protein balance isn't just about muscle. If the body remains in a negative protein balance for too long, every cellular function can be affected. Hormones and hormonal precursors may be deficient. Neurotransmitters could be altered. And even the enzymes that are necessary for everything from cellular metabolism to digestion could be depleted. Not a pretty picture.

"Why are you putting so much priority on the post-workout period?" you might be asking. Well, it's because there are many parallels between the physiological effects of intense training and those seen in several illnesses. What happens during illness? Well, illness can lead to the degradation of many vital physiological processes. This degradation leads to stress on the body that can lead to further deterioration of the patient's condition.

In such situations, protein breakdown increases dramatically, creating the same negative protein balance as seen after a workout. Get it? Clinicians recognize the fact that the net negative protein balance seen in illness is a downward spiral that has to be stopped. So with proper nutrition and supplementation, they manage it. And that's exactly what athletes and weight trainers need to do.

So with the three important post-workout goals of increasing glycogen storage, increasing protein synthesis, and preventing protein breakdown in mind; I've devised a killer plan for attacking all three to promote optimal recovery after exercise. But I want to keep you in suspense for one more week before I tell you all the details. I know you'll spend the week in anxious anticipation but trust me, you won't be disappointed.

Research performed by doctors and scientists at the University of Texas demonstrated last year that taking an essential amino acid/carbohydrate drink directly after weight training exercise stimulated muscle building mechanisms by up to 400% above normal rates. This is the highest recorded rate of muscle anabolism.

It appears the stimulus of heavy resistance training combined with the presence of all essential amino acids and high insulin levels from simple carbohydrates, work together, synergistically to produce this powerful anabolic response. Getting that easily absorbed protein and carbs into your body right after training is essential to muscle growth.

Now, the same group of researchers have recently provided evidence that consuming the same carb/essential amino acid mix just before training can be equally as potent at stimulating muscle growth. This new study* determined that consuming the protein (essential amino acid) and carbohydrate supplement just before resistance exercise produced a greater anabolic response than the same drink mix after resistance exercise.

The results on six healthy subjects showed that the delivery of amino acids was significantly greater when the supplement was taken pre-training as opposed to after training. Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg muscle was also greater when the supplement was taken pre-training as opposed to after training, while the phenylalanine disappearance rate (the main indicator of muscle protein synthesis) increased equally in both consumption trials.

The researchers suggest this anabolic response may be due to the increased flow of amino acids into the working muscle during training. This makes sense. These studies are vital to our understanding of how to build muscle, but they only provide information on what's happening within a specific site (in this case the leg muscles) and not whole body protein turnover.

Don't take these results as a recommendation to only take your supplement before your workout. Based on these results I'm advising athletes to "bracket" their weight training sessions with a serving of VP2 Whey Isolate and Creatine HSC directly before and directlt after training.
 
Actually I do agree to an extent with you guys............the PW opportunity is greatly over stressed.........if your diet is on point all day, and fuel with sufficient nutrients preworkout, you'll be fine. I'm still in the experimenting mode as this iis one concept I have not fully grasped, so I wont pretend................I do know that eating before bed as been nothing but beneficial for me.............but thats me.
 
Well for one you didnt come close to hitting my question, and 2 if that study is correct how was it possible for me to add quite a substancial amount of mass in the last 16 weeks considering not once have a had a simple or complex carb after my workouts?
 
Borg4902 said:
if that study is correct how was it possible for me to add quite a substancial amount of mass in the last 16 weeks considering not once have a had a simple or complex carb after my workouts?

because:

JKurz1 said:
Actually I do agree to an extent with you guys............the PW opportunity is greatly over stressed.........if your diet is on point all day, and fuel with sufficient nutrients preworkout, you'll be fine.
 
Borg4902 said:
Well for one you didnt come close to hitting my question, and 2 if that study is correct how was it possible for me to add quite a substancial amount of mass in the last 16 weeks considering not once have a had a simple or complex carb after my workouts?

I think the real question here should be: would you have packed on even more size had you added in carbs PW... the only way your statement is valid here if you did the exact same thing under the EXACT same conditions but next time added carbs and saw no difference or less results.
 
Borg4902 said:
Well thats will never occur, since I wount have to drop 70lbs next yea from all of last years late night carbs.

LOL... well how do you expect me to respond to that statement?? I'm trying to have a serious discussion here and you have to throw that in there LOL
:doublefi:
 
Borg4902 said:
Well thats will never occur, since I wount have to drop 70lbs next yea from all of last years late night carbs.

If those late night carbs had fallen under your caloric limitations (whether you were cutting/bulking/maintaining) they would not have contributed to your weight gain.
 
van_wilder said:
I think the real question here should be: would you have packed on even more size had you added in carbs PW... the only way your statement is valid here if you did the exact same thing under the EXACT same conditions but next time added carbs and saw no difference or less results.

That would be the ideal situation, but it's terribly unlikely to ever occur in the real world.

People can have their own styles to cutting or bulking and do what they feel works best for them. However, when giving advice it's important to understand the reasoning behind your recommendations, and if it's only a personal preference as opposed to actual fact, it's best to leave it to yourself.

If someone could explain why late-night carbs magically turn into fat, given they're falling within your caloric limitations, I'd love to hear it.
 
Joe Stenson said:
If those late night carbs had fallen under your caloric limitations (whether you were cutting/bulking/maintaining) they would not have contributed to your weight gain.

Bla bla bla
Bla bla bla
Same old story
 
Yes but if I had eaten those same calories worth of protein instead of carbs at nigh I would not have gotten as fat.
 
Borg4902 said:
I dont know. Why does adkins work. Tuns of cals and weight loss.

Atkins creates a large initial weight loss, which is water. Any weight loss over and above that is due to a caloric deficit...a caloric deficit that was not present in the person's previous diet if he/she was not losing weight.

You have to remember with Atkins, you're completely eliminating the consumption of a macronutrient (carbs). In most cases, this results in people eating less calories overall, because chances are they were already eating high fat. So instead of high protein/high fat/high carb, it's just high protein/high fat and all of a sudden they're losing weight. Surprising.
 
Dude whatever a lot of people like 90% still ate way way more then maitenence and lost. Dude get a clue. Its called nutrient timing. Everyting isnt cals = cals. Im getting tired of you close minded ways. Go read a damn book. Stop arguing just to argue. Its getting old. Knowone ever seems to agree with you. Maybe thats why you have a little bomb by your name. I dont know I dont care I wish I could block ever post you write so I didnt waste time reading the garbage you make up and try to scientifically back with loose jargon and rederick. Im outy. Got a life besides here.
 
Borg4902 said:
Dude whatever a lot of people like 90% still ate way way more then maitenence and lost. Dude get a clue. Its called nutrient timing. Everyting isnt cals = cals. Im getting tired of you close minded ways. Go read a damn book. Stop arguing just to argue. Its getting old. Knowone ever seems to agree with you. Maybe thats why you have a little bomb by your name. I dont know I dont care I wish I could block ever post you write so I didnt waste time reading the garbage you make up and try to scientifically back with loose jargon and rederick. Im outy. Got a life besides here.

Where did you get that 90% from?

Everything is not cals = cals, but that's the most important thing. I'm not the one who is close-minded. I have been presenting views that differ from the "norm" on THIS board (let me assure you different boards do not share the same views), and people have been rejecting them without any evidence as to why I'm wrong. That's not me being close-minded.

I always provide an explanation for what I state. Look hard and you won't find any kind of explanation provided by yourself, or will b huge, or whoever on any of these subjects. It's all just "this is the way I've done it in the past, it worked, so it must be the best". No. Wrong. There are different ways to skin a cat. I can get ripped eating 6 meals a day or 3 or 10. I can gain muscle training each bodypart once/week or three times/week. So can you. Just because you've only tried certain approaches does not mean they are the ONLY approaches.

And what I like is to debate things because of exactly what I said above: there isn't one "right" way. This is how people learn. People do not learn anything from random statements backed up by nothing but personal experience and emotion.

And I'm not here to start arguments. I'm trying to help out. I'm not the one who gained a bunch of weight "because I ate late night carbs", that was you. And I'm trying to explain to you WHY you gained that weight to prevent it from happening again.
 
Borg4902 said:
Dude whatever a lot of people like 90% still ate way way more then maitenence and lost. Dude get a clue. Its called nutrient timing. Everyting isnt cals = cals. Im getting tired of you close minded ways. Go read a damn book. Stop arguing just to argue. Its getting old. Knowone ever seems to agree with you. Maybe thats why you have a little bomb by your name. I dont know I dont care I wish I could block ever post you write so I didnt waste time reading the garbage you make up and try to scientifically back with loose jargon and rederick. Im outy. Got a life besides here.

I don't know if that was called for... but you're right in that I think nutrient timing is important... I don't think cutting carbs completely is the answer... and you're advocated macronutrient timing so at what time is it best to take in carbs? I say the timing of your physical activity is a more important factor in determining when to take in carbs rather than sticking by the clock.
VW
 
van_wilder said:
I say the timing of your physical activity is a more important factor in determining when to take in carbs rather than sticking by the clock.

Yes, I agree.

What makes carbs more useful to have in the morning if your activity is all in the evening?
 
Fact is this...we are overcomplicating everything. THere is only one way to know if it will work for you....TRY IT!!! I'm experimenting daily, that's where I've gained my knowledge......some things work, some dont. I tolerate carbs much better than fats. Thats just how I react. Before bed, I scarf peanuts and cottage cheese....it's my dessert. So, on the other hand, I tolerate fats better at night than other cals.....OR, maybe it's just that my cals are low enough during the day, that I can chow at night.....Plus, Itrain at night and also do cardio first in the am......oh well. After 5 pages of thread, can we agree that one just needs to give all angles a solid look.
 
Personal experience is everything! Dude just think about it are you going to listen to the skinny kid at the gym about diet or the 230lb ripped beast. That is what the boards are about. Who cares what the scientific studys say, I want to know and value will be opinion because he is a f'ing monster just like I do King Whinny's. I dont care what any book post or study sais it all about the person writing it and if it worked for them or not. THats why I give my opinion the way I dobecause I know what works for me and what dosent. I know carbs make me fat. I know that for a fact! I have played with my diet and know my body. I know when to time carbs for the best energy releases and pumps. I give my opinion because as stated its what I do and its what works for me. I also post pics a lot. If people like what they see, they now know what my thoughts and recomendations are. Personally I want to look like King W all year round, so I am going to listen to him. I dont care if a billion books and study's disagree with what he does, because I can see the results with my own eyes. Plain and simple the point for me is the proof is in the pudding. So if you want to look like Needsize eat and train like him, if you wanna look like Jkurtz eat and train like him and so on and so forth. But for god sake stop flamming people for stating what works for them. Shit dude I dont know why it works, but it does. I could probably spat off some scientific crap from one of my college textbooks but im not going to.
 
Borg4902 said:
Personal experience is everything! Dude just think about it are you going to listen to the skinny kid at the gym about diet or the 230lb ripped beast. That is what the boards are about. Who cares what the scientific studys say, I want to know and value will be opinion because he is a f'ing monster just like I do King Whinny's. I dont care what any book post or study sais it all about the person writing it and if it worked for them or not. THats why I give my opinion the way I dobecause I know what works for me and what dosent. I know carbs make me fat. I know that for a fact! I have played with my diet and know my body. I know when to time carbs for the best energy releases and pumps. I give my opinion because as stated its what I do and its what works for me. I also post pics a lot. If people like what they see, they now know what my thoughts and recomendations are. Personally I want to look like King W all year round, so I am going to listen to him. I dont care if a billion books and study's disagree with what he does, because I can see the results with my own eyes. Plain and simple the point for me is the proof is in the pudding. So if you want to look like Needsize eat and train like him, if you wanna look like Jkurtz eat and train like him and so on and so forth. But for god sake stop flamming people for stating what works for them. Shit dude I dont know why it works, but it does. I could probably spat off some scientific crap from one of my college textbooks but im not going to.

I think this was a pretty good post. I respect that different things work for different people and that's why I post some things that are counter to what lots of people on this board are doing. I think both you and I (and will b huge and a lot of other guys) are guilty of really pushing what works for us, instead of admitting that there are different paths to reach the same goal.

I just find it difficult to argue with science; someone can always say "well this worked for me so it must be ok", but it's hard to swallow if it's going against what logic and science are saying. I also think people are too stuck in their ways to try alternative routes out. Since I've come here, I've explained numerous times why one can have the same results eating 3 meals/day vs 6, but because 6 is what's been working for so many people why would they change? And I don't blame them. But it's not to say that what I'm saying is incorrect.

And one final point (the only thing I didn't like about your post above) regarding something I see way too much of on this board. The mentality that you have to "look the part" is wrong. I'm well aware that it's very tempting to fall into this trap, but it's wrong, period. There's so many factors that come into developing a great physique that go above and beyond training and nutritional knowledge that it is a complete fallacy to think that the skinny kid at the gym doesn't know as much as the 230lb ripped beast. I'm not saying that the skinny kid will always know more, or even usually know more, but he "could" know more...and it's probably more prevalent than you'd think. Just something to keep in mind.
 
Oh dude in know way did I mean to come off like the skinny kid cant know more. Hell I am an exercise science major but none of my teacher are anywhere near built. All im saying is that definitally in the gym and really on a discussion board people listen to the people with the physiques they want for themselves.
 
well after reading all of these posts i think i'm motivated to get my diet on point. no regrets though, i was a skinny kid and eating everything in sight got me some incredible gains and most of it was muscle, probably due to high metabolism. but i think its time to get to the next level, and eating right is the answer. Thanx for the motivation even if it was indirect. i was thinking.... hell if i'm 210+ with an ok bf% while i've been eating whatever i want basically, i could probably get bigger and leaner if i get a great diet together. i'm gonna do some research on exactly what i need to do, but i would appreciate it if any of u guys had suggestions. when i got into to this game i was told to just eat as much as i could all day and make sure it had protein in it, so thats what i did but its time to move on.

Thanx and suggestions would be helpful

i know what types of food i need to eat and always have eaten a lot of it like (tuna, steak, chicken, eggs, PB, wheat bread, oats, etc.) but i am not sure on how much to eat and at what time to eat it. I ussually just try to eat 6 times a day and have it include a good protein source.
 
Borg4902 said:
Oh dude in know way did I mean to come off like the skinny kid cant know more. Hell I am an exercise science major but none of my teacher are anywhere near built. All im saying is that definitally in the gym and really on a discussion board people listen to the people with the physiques they want for themselves.

I think this is where you clashed with Kurz and Joe bro..that you just stated above that what your doing is working for YOU....that YOU will listen to the person that YOU want ot look like, because it is working for YOU...and thats cool..but i think that what they are tyring to say is that you cant push what works for YOU onto someone else because we are all different..so they have an idea..you have an idea..no one is wrong..are they wrong because what they are doing works for them...no..you clearly stated that your not wrong because what your doing works for you..so neither are they...either way...all 3 had alot of good information....
 
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