My 2 week cycle-- any thoughts welcome!

[Lift Chief]

Hey guys i've done one cycle before this of
1-10 400mg EQ
1-10 400mg Enanthate
10-12 50 mg Winny ED

So for my next cycle i want to try out a short cycle just to see how i like them....
Days:
1-12 Test Prop 100mg ED
1-14 Dbol 30 mg ED
Nolva and Proviron throughout clomid afterwards

What do you guys think-- is the prop dosage too high?
--thanks

 

[thelegacy]

good luck--i dont think youll like it to much with just two--i would at least go 4 weeks

 

[Lift Chief]

the idea is to gain as much off of this cycle as you would in 1/4 of an 8 week bulking cycle- im not expecting big gains of course... i would be happy with 5-10 pounds. I plan to do 2 on 4 off for 6 months though so it will add up... theoretically.

Any other thoughts on my cycle... especially the doses i am running?

 

[thelegacy]

since its only 2 weeks i would go for higher dosages--d-bol 50-60mg, test 800 mg

 

[Lift Chief]

thanks man-- anybody else agree?

 

[Realgains]

Hey guys i've done one cycle before this of
1-10 400mg EQ
1-10 400mg Enanthate
10-12 50 mg Winny ED

So for my next cycle i want to try out a short cycle just to see how i like them....
Days:
1-12 Test Prop 100mg ED
1-14 Dbol 30 mg ED
Nolva and Proviron throughout clomid afterwards

What do you guys think-- is the prop dosage too high?
--thanks

Be sure to do a loading dose of test prop at 300 mg on day one. You need to get blood hormone levels up FAST for a two weeker. Also up the d-bol to 50 per day in five divided doses.
you should keep 5-7 pounds with this short cycle..some can gain a little more.

RG

 

[Lift Chief]

thanks realgains- i was hoping you'd get a chance to comment!
yep i remember about the loading day, just forgot to write it down.

thanks a lot--

 

[Nelson Montana]

Going with higher dosages to "make up" for the short duration is not wise IMO. More supression, more bloat, more aromatization in less time. It defeats the purpose.

When I came up with the 3 week SFH cycle it was met with suspecion and I never thought anyone would try to "improve" it by making it into the currently popular "2 week cycle". I guess when people saw how well it worked, it was a natural extrapolation. But 2 weeks is a little too short. Then again, I believe in staying off longer. On for 2 weeks and off for only four, is almost like not going off at all.

As far as getting the blood hormone level up fast --- that's what the orals are for.

Also, I'd nix the EQ but I doubt you'll take that advice.

 

[Lift Chief]

i'm not doing eq in this cycle- only test prop and dbol, that was my last cycle.

NM... wouldn't 3 weeks inhibit your test about as much as it would be on an 8 week cycle? I've heard week 3 is when the pituitary inhibition really starts to set in. So 2 week cycles are supposed to help you gain while still getting quick recovery. Do you not agree with this?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Any length of time will cause supression. If you take a single dianabol there's surpession to a degree. Every day you stay on, you cause more supression. There's no magic time when you won't experience side effects or a time when they'll suddenly appear or a time when they'll stop. I think that was a theory of "Bill My Mommy Told Me I'm Smarter Than Everybody Roberts." It's nonsense.

Duration, like dosage, must be high enough to impart gains. The key is to do enough without doing too much. I feel three weeks offers the best benefit/risk ratio if dosages are kept sane. You can gain on a low dose 3 week cycle -- not a lot -- but more than you can probably gain in 6 months training naturally. And that's the point. If you're looking to put on 20 pounds -- never mind anything I just said.

 

[Lift Chief]

ok well that is a different theory on supression than i have heard before but i am interested into what type of doses you would run for a 3 week cycle? and i'm just looking for a good gain, not 20 pounds.

thanks--

 

[Realgains]

Going with higher dosages to "make up" for the short duration is not wise IMO. More supression, more bloat, more aromatization in less time. It defeats the purpose.

When I came up with the 3 week SFH cycle it was met with suspecion and I never thought anyone would try to "improve" it by making it into the currently popular "2 week cycle". I guess when people saw how well it worked, it was a natural extrapolation. But 2 weeks is a little too short. Then again, I believe in staying off longer. On for 2 weeks and off for only four, is almost like not going off at all.

As far as getting the blood hormone level up fast --- that's what the orals are for.

Also, I'd nix the EQ but I doubt you'll take that advice.

Hey bro...whats wrong with getting the injectable hormone up in a flash as well....makes sence to me bro.
Using higher doses for short cycles makes perfectly good sence bro.........check out the literature from Europe where they have been doing these cycles for years.....and talk to #1 Guru Bill Roberts.

RG

 

[Realgains]

Any length of time will cause supression. If you take a single dianabol there's surpession to a degree. Every day you stay on, you cause more supression. There's no magic time when you won't experience side effects or a time when they'll suddenly appear or a time when they'll stop. I think that was a theory of "Bill My Mommy Told Me I'm Smarter Than Everybody Roberts." It's nonsense.

Duration, like dosage, must be high enough to impart gains. The key is to do enough without doing too much. I feel three weeks offers the best benefit/risk ratio if dosages are kept sane. You can gain on a low dose 3 week cycle -- not a lot -- but more than you can probably gain in 6 months training naturally. And that's the point. If you're looking to put on 20 pounds -- never mind anything I just said.

Bill Roberts was doing roids before you were born bro....such disrespect for an obvious Guru!
Pituitary inhibition of LH takes a little over two weeks and thus the main reason for 2 weekers...rapid test recovery! As Huck or my endochrinologist in regard to LH suppression after two weeks....its actually well know amoungst those in the know.
Also Roberts did not make up anything in regard to two week cycles ...he got it form a very well respected Greek MD that trains steroid using athletes and has been using two week cycles at moderately high doses for years with very good results.

 

[Nelson Montana]

RG: Can't cut and paste on this server but I'll try to address your points.

The fact that high doses have been used in Europe is meaningless. For what purpose? Hey, you can do anything you want! I'm talking about gains with minimum side effects.

The fact that you refer to Roberts as a "guru" is a little too idolater for me. I don't discount his knowledge of pharmacology, but that doesn't mean he gives good advice. I know the guy, and take the conversation away from chemistry and he's pretty clueless.

It's a matter of record to those "in the know" as you put it, that I wrote the 3 week Steroids For Health program in 1997. Bill Roberts came out with the 2 week cycle in 1999. That reminds me of the guy who heard the 10 minute ABS video was selling well so he comes out with a 9 minute ABS video.

He's been doing steroids before I was born? How do you know? And what does that matter? For your edification I've been involved in bodybuilding for over 30 years.

Pituitary inhibition takes a little over 2 weeks? At what dosages? A little over 2 weeks sounds awfully close to 3 weeks to me.

I'm not trying to come off like I'm smarter than anyone else and I don't think I said anything to suggest that. Perhaps you feel I'm usurping your status on the board. At any rate, it's all conjecture and I will not be goaded into offering the "perfect" cycle because there is no such thing. My theories are based on common sense with health as the objective. I believe one can make small, safe gains using drugs, however, the greater the gain the more you're going to lose. The body can not maintain large increases in weight and ESPECIALLY if the HPTA is severely surpressed. That's all. I get into this is more detail in an upcoming book, but that's the basic premise. Take it for what it's worth -- or not.

 

[Realgains]

Nelson why not give an example of a cycle? I for one would like to know and I am sure others would too.

I have noted that my testosterone recovers very rapidly after a 2 weeker and I have never taken less androgen than test at 100mg per day after a loading dose and tren 75 per day or d-bol 50 per day. I have tries lower doses of gear and they ahve not worked very well. BTW I am a low to moderate dose believer for longer cycles.

My test rebounds to slightly higher than my norm for a few weeks after the first week. I never get any sides to speak of because the duration "on" is not long enough to trigger them, at least with me anyway.........no acne, very little bloat, no change in BP, almost no alteration in my lipid profile and liver enzymes. Also the 4 weeks off has me gaining a little more muscle. I attribute this to the super charged metabolic condition left over from the steroid use and the slightly higher than norm(my norm) test level. Last time I did a two weeker my test level was 550 before the cycle, almost zero on day 14 and 656 a week latter!! That is significant I think and I am certain that this never happens to anyone after an 8 weeker.

RG

 

[Lift Chief]

yes nelson i am also very interested in your recommendation for a cycle. i understand you are writing a book but some guidlines you suggest for a cycle would be very interesting indeed...

 

[Nelson Montana]

RG: You're preaching to the choir. Everything you're saying is what I've advocated for years. You don't have to try and convince me of the benefits of short cycles.

100mgs af test ED for how many days?

Chief: It depends on your goals and there are a lot of variables. I tend to like one drug that is highly androgenic while the other is more anabolic, otherwise you get two of the "same thing" essentially.

I, like most people writing about this for some time, used to think that deca was a good anabolic choice but now I wouldn't recommend it.

Favorite stacks are either Primo and D-bol or Sus and Anavar. Depending on how many cycles you've done will dictate the dosages. Orals are daily and injectables are every other day for a total of whatever you decide is necessary. Personally, I never go went over 1000mgs a week -- that's total --injectable and oral, but that's me. Some people can tolerate more, others less. Bottom line: If you can't grow on 600mgs a week, you suck as a bodybuilder. And if 1000mgs a week doesn't do anything, your receptors are fried.

 

[Lift Chief]

Oh and RG a question for you if you would

you said that in 2 weeks you dont see the sides you typically do with longer cycles which seems to make a lot of sense to me. My question is would 2 weeks also reduce the chance that you would get gyno? I would think even if you get symptoms at say the end of week 1, which would be soon, that you're only on for another week and in that time it can't get very bad.

of course i'll run an anti-e with it but i am rather gyno prone so i'm just wondering in case the anti-e doesnt do the trick.

 

[Lift Chief]

thanks nelson. what you said with sust/anavar and primo/dbol would only be for longer cycles i assume because of the long half life of sust and dbol. so would you have any particular compound/dosage recommendations for a short cycle of your preferred 3 weeks?

thanks--

 

[Realgains]

Oh and RG a question for you if you would

you said that in 2 weeks you dont see the sides you typically do with longer cycles which seems to make a lot of sense to me. My question is would 2 weeks also reduce the chance that you would get gyno? I would think even if you get symptoms at say the end of week 1, which would be soon, that you're only on for another week and in that time it can't get very bad.

of course i'll run an anti-e with it but i am rather gyno prone so i'm just wondering in case the anti-e doesnt do the trick.

I wouldn't gamble with estrogen bro. Some people are very sensitive to it and it doesn't take much to trigger gyno. You are going to get elevated estrogen levels while on a two or three week cycle with aromatizable gear especially test and d-bol together. I would always take 20 of nolva or 50 of clomid with any cycle that has aromatizing gear. Besides the clomid and nolva act as estrogens in the liver and help the lipid profiles of men not on steroids and it may be of limited benefit to combat lipid changes while on a cycle.

Some think estrogen blockers like nolava nd clomid will reduce gains....well this is another myth strted by the late Dan Duchaine. Before Duchaine said this NOBODY thought nolva reduced their gains.

RG

RG

 

[Nelson Montana]

Am I not speaking English? This whole topic is about short cyles, right? Why can't you use sustanon. One shot every other day for 3 or 4 shots and it works great. Yeah, everyone says it lasts for 3 weeks, but the effects diminish quickly after about 16 days. The "half life" is almost inconsequential since it will act as a natural taper.

Done correctly you shouldn't need an anti estrogen BTW they DO hinder gains on several levels. It is not a myth. That sounds like another Bill Roberts thing. (He hated Dan and would say anything to try and discredit him). Llywellin does a nice job of addressing the importance of estrogens during a cycle in his new book with which I concur.

If you're prone to gyno, keep the dosages down, or substitute Winstrol for D-bol. You can also add Proviron. Oh yeah, Roberts says Proviron isn't an anti estrogen therefore it can't work. But what he failed to realize is that DHT acts as an gyno anagonist, not to mention it can not be converted to estrogen. Since Proviron has such a high affinity for androgen receptors it does a very nice job at minimizing aromatization -- as does Winstrol, just not as well.

 

[Realgains]

But Nelson don't you remember the old days when everyone was on nolva and nobody said it reduced gains...then Duchaine comes out of the blue and says it does and then everyone quite taking nolva for a while?
Nolva hasn't affected my gains.

I have seen guys on as little as 250 of test per week get gyno in less than a month. By the time you really notice gyno it is often too late don't you think. If tissue is already there then the nolva will not get rid of it.


Bill Llewllyn says that estrogen is important in a cycle as it seems to help gains a little(probably IGF-1 stimulant) and that an estrogen inhibitor will mess with ones lipid profile. Nolva will not do that and in fact may actually help.

Nelson why are you so upset about Roberts?

RG

 

[Realgains]

And Nelson you have not said much about tren for a short cycle.

Do you think tren is hard on the kidneys like Duchaine used to say?
As a side.... I have never had elevated creatine or BUN levels on tren...not evemn slight elevation and I have been on 75 per day for 8 weeks straight.

RG

 

[Counterstrike]

ok 3 weeks cycle sounds better than 2 weeks. for cycles like that one would use like prop,winny halo,sus,clen etc.. I don't think I would go over a certain amount in dose like prop from 75-100 eod and winny ed at 50 mg ed would be good for 3 weeks.I think 3 weeks is not good enough for people wating to build mass and gain alot of weight but its good for athlete's using fast esters.
hey nelson 3 weeks on and how long to be of? 2 months?

 

[Lift Chief]

RG what are your thoughts on 3 weeks instead of 2? Do you feel strongly that after 2 your pituitary is going to be inhibited as much as it will be on a longer cycle? I believe what you're saying but if i can get an extra week that'd be great!

 

[Realgains]

RG what are your thoughts on 3 weeks instead of 2? Do you feel strongly that after 2 your pituitary is going to be inhibited as much as it will be on a longer cycle? I believe what you're saying but if i can get an extra week that'd be great!

It does seems that two weeks is about the max bro and after that the pituitary goes to sleep and not just the hypothalamus and testes......I have had this confirmed by my endochrinologist.

BUT really HPTA recovery is usually pretty darn quick if cycles are 8 weeks or less....this should be the least of your concerns. I worry more about a shitty lipid profile for months on end while on long cycles and also the unknown affect on the old prostate.

Three weeks seems good to me too as this time limits androgen build up and sides.

Why don't you try a mild cycle for 8 weeks bro if mass is what you are after. Short cycles are not best for mass unless you do many in a row after short breaks of 4 weeks.

Try this mild cycle bro.......Deca at 2mg per pound of body weight and proviron 25 mg twice per day. Thats a pretty mild cycle and you will likely not notice any sides at all save for the odd pimple...... and the proviron will help the deca work as it binds strongly to plasma binding proteins alllowing more nandrolone to be in the unbound state and that is good for anabolism. The proviron will also harden you up and take care of the estrogen from aromatizing nandrolone as it does aromatize at about 20% that of testosterone.
The proviron will keep you feeling well as nandrolone is such a mild androgen that it doesn't provide the needed androgen for feeling of well being for many(after your test has been shut down) It will also keep your libido up. It is not 17aa so it is mild on the liver and not that bad for the lipid profile.

Do HCG 500iu'd per day for two weeks after your last deca shot and before clomid. Do clomid three weeks after the last deca at 300mg on day one and then 50 per day for 4 weeks.

RG

 

[Nelson Montana]

Whew! Where do I start?

Okay, real quick:

Dan was right about anti-e's. It's hard to say how much they'll hurt gains though. But they cause other problems as well, including elevated lipids.

If someone gets gyno on 250mgs a week, juicin ain't for him. Or try Proviron.

No mention of tren. Don't believe in using vet gear. That's me. Never did it so can't comment.

If you stay off for 2 months, you can probably do the same dosages with the same results.

Bill Roberts is a dick.

Proviron won't help gyno from Deca since the gyno will be progesterongenic in effect, not estrogenic.

It still comes down to dosage. I'm on T therepy (AndroGel) so in a sense, I'm never off. And I've experienced no testicular shrinkage -- cause the dose is low.

I'm going to bed now.

 

[Triple J]

In regards to HCG, be very careful about estrogen management during this phase of recovery. I recommend an ant-e like ldex along with nolva or clomid at this stage. The HCG can trigger very high estrogen. I know from experience here - moderate dose test did not cause the gyno it was the HCG after.

If you keep your cycles to a short length and dosages low, you should probably not need the HCG - but the nolva or clomid is probably still a good idea for weeks three and five.

 

[Realgains]

In regards to HCG, be very careful about estrogen management during this phase of recovery. I recommend an ant-e like ldex along with nolva or clomid at this stage. The HCG can trigger very high estrogen. I know from experience here - moderate dose test did not cause the gyno it was the HCG after.

If you keep your cycles to a short length and dosages low, you should probably not need the HCG - but the nolva or clomid is probably still a good idea for weeks three and five.

Yes always take nolva with HCG

RG